PROKOFIEV"S TOCCATA

[LiszTMaN]

on a scale of 1-10 for difficulty what would you give Prokofiev's Toccata.

If you don't have the score
go to
www.sheemusicarchive.net

and click Prokofiev

I also wanted to know the difficulty of all the Consolations and Liebestraume because my brother wants to play them.

[Rach3]

At least a 9.

[liszmaninopin]

I'd give it between 7.5 and 8.

[Nu-Steinway-Player]

I'd agree -- 7.5 to 8.  It's tricky, but not that hard once it's under your hands.  It's a matter of pure relaxation once you learn these notes -- all of them.  God, there are a lot of notes in this piece!!  But it's such a cool Toccata. 

[jlh]

I'd agree -- 7.5 to 8.  It's tricky, but not that hard once it's under your hands.  It's a matter of pure relaxation once you learn these notes -- all of them.  God, there are a lot of notes in this piece!!  But it's such a cool Toccata. 

True, but it's the initial practice on this piece that is the major challenge -- so many chromatic chords.  I'm polishing this piece (and others) for auditions and almost have it up to speed again.

It's also somewhat of an endurance test of technical abilities, so the better your technique, the easier it will be to perform well.

[thierry13]

so the better your technique, the easier it will be to perform well.

Isn't true for mostly all pieces   

[Skeptopotamus]

7

[steinwayguy]

8

[Skeptopotamus]

i dunno if I'm gonna stand by my seven.  Firstly, im very bad at judging difficulty and breeze through pieces everyone thinks are hard and gets totally stuck on pieces everyone else thinks are easier.  Secondly, what is the scale here?

are we using like sorabji as a 10?

or like nancarrow as a 10?

or ginastera as a 10?

[Etude]

Out of 10 with 1 being chopsticks difficulty,
5 being Grade 8 ABRSM and
10 being late Sorabji level: (Finnissy and Nancarrow are top heavy )

I give 7.5/10 for Toccata op. 11

At a glance I would give the six Liszt Consolations:

#1 = 2/10
#2 = 3/10
#3 = 3.5/10
#4 = 2/10
#5 = 3.5/10
#6 = 4/10

 

[fred smalls]

Hmmmm the Liszt consolations are easy, but maybe not 1 up from chopsticks......
Maybe 10 shouldn't be sorabji, why don't we leave him out on this one (and maybe some other topics where his name is mentioned 10000000000000000000000 times...)

[steinwayguy]

Gaspard de la Nuit or, more appropriately, Stravinsky's Petrouchka should be 10, methinks.

[fred smalls]

That sounds appropriate

[Skeptopotamus]

maybe too appropriate...

<.<

>.>


whispers to fred (he's a robot and must be eliminated...)

[tds]

quiet a bit of the tocatta can be played by the lh only. and that is NOT easier to do it this way.

[Dazzer]

quiet a bit of the tocatta can be played by the lh only. and that is NOT easier to do it this way.

Now, when i haven't learnt it, i'll give it a 10.
When i've learnt it i'll give it a 1
Then when others ask me, i'll give it a 10 to make myself look good.



Has anyone heard martha play this? Phenomenal, i think.

[pskim]

Has anyone heard martha play this? Phenomenal, i think.

I have yet to hear someone surpass Horowitz.  His performance is hair raising.

[Etude]

Horowitz misses out most of the recapitulation section and jumps straight to the coda.

[jlh]

Horowitz misses out most of the recapitulation section and jumps straight to the coda.

So did Prokofiev, incidentally.  Personally, in spite of skipping such a major section, I find Horowitz' performance genius.

[invictious]

Watch that vid
I counted six fingers on each hand
You need that many fingers to play as well as that person.

[mikey6]

So did Prokofiev, incidentally.  Personally, in spite of skipping such a major section, I find Horowitz' performance genius.

He does? I've followed Prokofiev's performance with score straight through.

[jlh]

I have a note in my Alfred edition of this noting the place where Prokofiev edited his performance of this.  It surmises that he most likely did it to stay in the time limit of the record...  I would have to get my copy out to verify, though.  I'm going by memory.

Perhaps he has a second recording of this?

[arensky]

So did Prokofiev, incidentally.  Personally, in spite of skipping such a major section, I find Horowitz' performance genius.

Which one, the early 30's or the 1947?

They are both extraordinary, but the '47 is actually frightening in it's intensity.

The cut must be in the 30's recording.

[mikey6]

there's 2? I don't know which one mine is.  It sounds like a piano roll so might be early.  His rhythm at the start is rather wonky if that separates them at all.

[indutrial]

Hmmmm the Liszt consolations are easy, but maybe not 1 up from chopsticks......
Maybe 10 shouldn't be sorabji, why don't we leave him out on this one (and maybe some other topics where his name is mentioned 10000000000000000000000 times...)

Just because a few jerks (and I'm not talking about you) either worship Sorabji ridiculously or use him as a lightning rod for their frail derision doesn't mean he needs to be made taboo. I agree that he's not 10, but he's certainly above 9. Post-1920, there are too many criterion that can sway a piece into barbaric levels of difficulty and it's not always in the actually technique. I would heavily consider pieces that are near-impossible to read/conceptualize difficult in an equally convincing way. Stuff like Xenakis's multi-stave music must be incredibly mentally taxing to put your head around, let alone play. Same with Finnissy's works, which are absolutely brutal, technique-wise and concept-wise.

[jlh]

I found the note in my score.  It's the Murray Baylor edition, and he mentions that:

"When he recorded this piece Prokofiev made a cut from measure 172 to measure 185.  This was probably done because of the time limitations of the recordings made in his lifetime."

It doesn't specify a particular recording.  I was not aware he made 2 recordings.

Josh

[furtwaengler]

there's 2? I don't know which one mine is.  It sounds like a piano roll so might be early.  His rhythm at the start is rather wonky if that separates them at all.

I believe that does separate them. The piano roll is not nearly as good a recording, mainly because of the perceived differences in the piano Prokofiev made the roll on, and the piano the recording was made on. I don't think as much care was taken with his as was with some of the miraculously revealing Rachmaninov rolls (a window in time.)  I did hear Prokofiev's actual recording, on an lp at a library, but this is many years ago and I cannot recall any details. I don't think it has made it to CD, unfortunately.

I agree that both Horowitz recordings are amazing, as are many others, but my personal favorite is that of Samson Francois. It's mind blowing!

[theodopolis]

I thought I might post this recording, just to see what people's thoughts were on this rendition... plus it's an extremely enjoyable performance.
The performer brings out melodies I didn't even know were there when playing it.


Cheers
Theodopolis

[gerry]

WOW! Thanks for sharing that recording. What a wonderful slant on a familiar piece. His use of different stops really brings out surprising aspects -makes the piano version seem somewhat dry and brittle. According to Music Match the performer's name is Oliver Latry - is that right?

[mike_lang]

Eleven, baby.

[jlh]

I thought I might post this recording, just to see what people's thoughts were on this rendition... plus it's an extremely enjoyable performance.
The performer brings out melodies I didn't even know were there when playing it.


Cheers
Theodopolis

Only problem with this is that it lacks the percussive quality I believe should be present in this work.  Also, the performer had to modify many passages that were designed for a keyboard with greater range (piano).  I think there is also one small section that perhaps a third hand is being used (at about 2:40)?

Kudos to the performer, though I don't believe it sounds better on an organ.

[minor9th]

This is Jean Guillou's organ transcription. As good as Latry's is, Guillou's is off the chart! Faster and more demonic. I don't think Latry cheats with a third hand--I know Guillou doesn't!

[theodopolis]

I haven't heard Guillou's recording in a few years, but I when I first heard the Latry recording, I nearly fell to my knees with this track. I think the most spectacular aspect of the recording (apart from the Notre-Dame organ) is the judicious use of legato, particularly at 3min 30secs.
As much as I love Jean Guillou, I wonder if he has played legato since 1967!!!

P.S Would you be willing to share an mp3 of Guillou's own performance?

Cheers
Theodopolis

[minor9th]

I haven't heard Guillou's recording in a few years, but I when I first heard the Latry recording, I nearly fell to my knees with this track. I think the most spectacular aspect of the recording (apart from the Notre-Dame organ) is the judicious use of legato, particularly at 3min 30secs.
As much as I love Jean Guillou, I wonder if he has played legato since 1967!!!

P.S Would you be willing to share an mp3 of Guillou's own performance?

Cheers
Theodopolis

I would if it weren't an LP! I have no way of converting it.

[theodopolis]

Haha, that's always a catch.

I'll keep my eyes and ears open till I find a copy myself.

Thanks
Theodopolis

[jlh]

Haha, that's always a catch.

I'll keep my eyes and ears open till I find a copy myself.

Thanks
Theodopolis

Anyone interested in ordering it?  Might help if you speak French. 

https://www.universalmusic.fr/servlet/FrontProductServlet?action=view&art_id=6954&product_id=2894546522

[houseofblackleaves]

WHAT!?

A Prok. Toccata thread, and no one has posted this vid yet.

HA.  PWNED.

For shame.

[gerry]

Nice interpretation - I like her range of dynamics.

[minor9th]

It's certainly fast and impressive...yet seems to lack a certain demonic edge, which doesn't come from pure speed.

[gerry]

It's certainly fast and impressive...yet seems to lack a certain demonic edge, which doesn't come from pure speed.

I guess that's what I liked about it - it was a refreshingly less demonic.

[lohshuhan]

nothing beats martha argerich yet... 

haha... 

i hate figuring out the notes to chromatic passages, which is the only thing which is keeping me from learning this piece...  otherwise, i would have learnt it long ago...