Tone versus Voice

[tunneller]

Hi, I was just reading a post in the performance section, would have asked there, but likely would have been mocked, so I'm over in the Students Corner now. 

The discussion was about playing octaves, the original poster said his didn't sound good. One helpful reply came back saying to concentrate more on the "voice". A different reply came back saying no he should concentrate more on the "tone".

Er.. help?? What are the differences, or, more specifically can you clarify::: how do I change my body/arm/hand/finger to produce a different voice, and then what would I do differently to get a different tone instead.

The discussion seemed to be about the amount of time with finger on the keybed and the rapidity of releasing it. Or not.

Thanks, t.

[keyboardclass]

Fastish octaves should feel like shaking drops of water off the fingertips.  There's ideas for you here: www.youtube.com/isstip - both how to do up notes and how to do down notes.

[richard black]

I think most pianists would understand much the same thing by 'voice' and 'tone' really, and those who find a difference would not be consistent as to what the difference is. Piano jargon (like a lot of jargon, really) is not by any means universally agreed.

For what it's worth, I've found there are two things particularly important to think about in octaves: the relative loudness of top and bottom notes, and the accuracy with which the two are sounded together. Even a tiny, tiny difference in timing can make a surprisingly large effect on the sound, especially if top and bottom notes are similar in loudness.

[pianisten1989]

Yeah, do it only with your fingers and a stiff wrist. That will help A LOT! Godd job there Keyboard! You have, once again, prooved what virtuoso you are!

Voicing octaves is one of those, imo, stupid ideas. It basically means that the upper note should he louder. Most of the times, the result is that you could play only the top voice, and no one would hear the difference. And what I do (when I voice 6th and 3rds and so on) is to have a little bit more pressure on the louder tone.

Tone is more... That you are aware of how it sound, in a way. For me, it's kind of the time you spend "in the key", so to speak. If I want a big tone, I, most of the time, stay longer in the key. And if I want an octave with some "umpf" in it (like hungarian rhapsody no 6) I use a very fast attack.

I hope it helps!

[keyboardclass]

Yeah, do it only with your fingers and a stiff wrist.

Where the hell did you get that paraphrase??

[pianisten1989]

The rest of your "philosophy" doesn't really tell anyone to be relaxed, so I basically just added 1 and 1.

And to say something "Should" feel in a special way (I still don't know what you mean with "shaking drops of water off the fingertips" is.. I always use a towel) is a reason to why pianists get injured... That and not using their arms.

[keyboardclass]

Watch the videos dummy.

[pianisten1989]

Yeah, that's what I did... Why else would I assume that you always have stiff wrists? But no, I wont go off topic, and discussing your How to-videos.

[keyboardclass]

They're not my videos!

[scott13]

Octaves should not be played with a stiff wrist. Rather very relaxed wrist but locked hand position (important that although the hand is locked in position, it is tension free) And play the octaves by letting the wrist drop and act as a pivot. Playing with stiff wrists = fatigue

[keyboardclass]

Rather very relaxed wrist but locked hand position (important that although the hand is locked in position, it is tension free)

That can't be the case.  A 'locked' hand position will require constant tension no matter how 'slightly' it's done.  Better to only lock for the moment of key depression then instantly unlock.

[scott13]

That can't be the case.  A 'locked' hand position will require constant tension no matter how 'slightly' it's done.  Better to only lock for the moment of key depression then instantly unlock.

Sorry not the case. One can have a locked hand position without tension. I elevate my wrist, so my fingers are just dangling down, then play octaves through my wrist, and the hand remains completely relaxed.

[keyboardclass]

If your wrist didn't lock it would go up instead of keys going down.  (If a force acts upon a body, then an equal and opposite force must act upon the body that exerts the force.)  It requires tension to counter the equal opposite force i.e. stop your wrist being moved up.

[scott13]

This is not a forum for physics discussions.

If you tense your wrist octaves WILL cause fatigue, that is widely accepted amongst the piano community, i don't see why you insist of telling him to play with a stiff wrist, it does not help you at all. ALL playing at the piano must be relaxed and tension free (yes if we get to the physics argument there is always a small amount of tension). A locked wrist means your arm must also do significant movement, where as a relaxed wrist means minimal movement from the arm, hence less fatigue.

[keyboardclass]

I'm saying only tense your wrist for the millisecond of key depression - you have to then or the key won't go down.  You must learn to relax immediately afterwards.  As a famous pianist once said to me - anyone can depress a key, the art is in the releasing.

[pianisten1989]

Obviously there are more than one technique. I have a tendency to not agree with KeyboardClass, but I know some people who would agree with him, and they are doing just fine.

[jgallag]

In response to the question, my perception (and what I've been taught) is this: voicing is when you select which voices (lines in music, especially in counterpoint but present in all types) belong in which layers of the music. A basic practice of voicing is bringing the subject of a fugue to the forefront of the texture while letting the other voices fade into the background. Or, in the case of octaves, choosing whether the top or the bottom pitch receives more emphasis (or not emphasizing either more, which is still a decision). So voicing is more about the dynamic organization of the performance.

From what I've experienced, tone is actually quite simple: it is either good or bad. If you would like to find what bad tone sounds like, take the eraser end of a pencil (or something else that won't hurt the piano or you, which is why I don't say your hand) and jam it down from above onto the keys and really press into the keyboard. It should sound quite harsh and ugly. Pianists do this to a lesser degree when they don't release but simply press and press and play way too loud, and when they aim at the keys from above, as I mentioned. In reality, very few complaints about tone have anything to do with tone, it's more a problem of dynamic shaping and timing. However, these things are much more subtle than the simple dynamic markings in the score, and never written in, which I assume is why they get mistaken for tone. In the most general sense, good "tone" results from listening, to others (who have good "tone", e.g. Horowitz, Argerich, Richter, etc.) and yourself (here, of course, your ear is critical). Just keep your ears turned on.

[keyboardclass]

Obviously there are more than one technique. I have a tendency to not agree with KeyboardClass, but I know some people who would agree with him, and they are doing just fine.

The technique depends on what you're playing.  I play Bach and Mozart with more tension because the fingers need to be curled - Chopin mostly requires the natural curve of the fingers.

[tunneller]

Thanks for the replies.

The idea that voicing a chord/octave might mean slightly stressing some of the notes more than the other completely had not occurred to me. Dumb (of me) because I understand that concept in fugues, etc (or in something like Moonlight where the RH melody line is brought out).

But I think the answer that I'd like to pursue further is the pencil-stabbing discussing from jgallag and the releasing discussion from many of you. I can visualize some techniques that I want to try out to see how to get yet more pleasing sounds from my octaves. I'm uneasy that I do my octaves with fingers striking from above 

And time for me to start googling "dynamic shaping"...

[mcdiddy1]

The product of good voicing is a much improved tone. If you find ways to voice the melody line(typically the top note of the octaves if that is the tone you're going for) the tone of your octaves would be improved.  If you want to have good tone, you would want to have an idea of what good tone on the instrument sounds like and then use your ears to know if you achieved it or not. As far as the tension vs relaxation debate, in my opinion you need a combination of both in order to produce great tone and not one or the other. Nobody plays with COMPLETE relaxation because you would have not structure in your hands and fingers and would not be able to play. You also would want to avoid having tension in your hand or risk fatigue, harsh( inappropriate tone) and potential injury. Most of us however would do better towards leaning towards the relaxed of certain muscles, not all of them.

With octaves, what works for me is a still wrist, not a locked wrist.  When you say lock that usually involves the idea of tightening muscles, which prevents us from moving at our top speeds. However in order to maintain the hand structure to play the octaves the hand must remain still which does involve some tension but not a lot. You would want to discover the feeling for your own particular body and judge the results accordingly to if you are able to achieve the speed, accuracy , and comfort you need to play the passage.

[zeroblackstar]

I agree with some of the posts above, mainly the ones that address the dynamic arrangement of the notes being played.

For instance if your'e playing a left handed octave as a backing to some right hand work, you have the choice of how loud the combination of both notes is going to be and how loud each note will be in comparison to the other. I may decide that too much emphasis on the lowest note makes the piece sound too dark, claustrophobic or even muddy so I play the lower note a bit gentler so that it acts as an undertone, giving the note above a bit more depth and weight. Keeping the piece out of the mud and but adding the depth I want, I will have chosen to do this as I believe that it is in the spirit of that section of a piece. The next bar I may play it differently as the mood of the piece changes.

I would refer to the above as "voice" rather than as "tone" if I had to use the jargon presented but it is just dynamics me.

[tunneller]

zeroblackstar:  your post completely clicks for me.

Now, implementing it is going to be something else. But I understand what to aim for, which surely is the first (hardest?) part.