Technique and Power - A Correlation?

[richard black]

I'm talking about starting from contact with the keys and using the muscles to move the fingers.

Yes, I thought so, and apart from the one sentence so was I.

the arm can PULL rather than necessarily push. The wrist can be pulled straight- either by the result of releasing the upper arm or by active muscular pull. Either way- the arm is not pressing into the keys or contributing power.

Pull, push, depends on your point of view - the fact is that its muscles are doing something related to getting the key down.

In fact I think we agree on everything except the semantics of what exactly constitutes 'contributing power'. The arm certainly contributes force.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes, I thought so, and apart from the one sentence so was I.

Pull, push, depends on your point of view - the fact is that its muscles are doing something related to getting the key down.

In fact I think we agree on everything except the semantics of what exactly constitutes 'contributing power'. The arm certainly contributes force.

Absolutely. That's exactly what I've said in various blog posts- it contributes force but not energy (unless it moves). However, it does not need to push to contribute force. That is where talk of the arm for power can be very misleading. Understanding what is can do without pressing has freed me up from a wealth of wasted efforts. The force occurs passively, simply by release. Note I said it CAN pull- not that it must. A released arm tugs back at the wrist plenty already. So it's entirely optional as to whether you want to add further pull with the muscles. There's so much pull for free, extra is not necessarily required.

If you're talking about using the muscles, why the paragraph about the mass of the hand? Are you saying a speeding bullet cannot move a key to produce a loud sound? It certainly can- despite weighing in nowhere near 250g. If a couple of grams are up to it (when moved fast enough), why would 250g be insufficient? I don't see what your point was.

The following paragraph was solely referring to the dead drop of mass.

"Indeed it's easy to show that gravity and the hand's weight are insufficient even for a single note if it needs to be loud. Get something that weighs 250g and hold it so that it rests very slightly (just in contact) on the surface of a piano key. Now suddenly release it, and see how loudly the note sounds under the influence of a 250g weight. Quite loud, but not very. (I just tried this.) Do the same for two adjacent keys using the same weight and it's only something in the mezzo-forte range at most. Therefore, we can deduce, the hand needs some effort from the arm even to play one or two isolated notes loudly. Of course you can raise the hand above the level of the keys (using the arm, of course, but not in the sense we've been talking about) and drop it so there's a sudden impact on the keys, but that's one bit of piano technique that as far as I am aware is universally avoided, except for special effects, and it's completely unsuitable for anything fast."

I'm not talking about any such thing. Also, it cannot be "deduced" that the hand needs effort from the arm at all. What is needs is impetus from SOMEWHERE. Actions in the hand can provide impetus too. They are not exclusively possible from the arm and the arm alone! The deduction is founded upon false logic.

[richard black]

Oh for heaven's sake - you haven't a CLUE about Newtonian mechanics, just not a clue. This is like trying to talk about how to drive a car with someone who's never even seen a bicycle. I give up - I'm simply not prepared to argue with someone who believes in perpetual motion machines - which, by logical extension of your comments about 'impetus', I perceive you do.

EDIT - though I have no wish to imply anything uncomplimentary about either your playing or your teaching, about both of which I am of course ignorant. I'm just convinced that your explanations are wrong and you're unwilling to accept criticism of them.

[nyiregyhazi]

Oh for heaven's sake - you haven't a CLUE about Newtonian mechanics, just not a clue. This is like trying to talk about how to drive a car with someone who's never even seen a bicycle. I give up - I'm simply not prepared to argue with someone who believes in perpetual motion machines - which, by logical extension of your comments about 'impetus', I perceive you do.

I have not the slightest idea as to what you are basing that on. Your entire argument to "prove" that the arm must use effort was based on the assumption that the hand has no muscles of it's own and is only capable of being dropped. The only thing that proves is that something other than gravity has to contribute to acceleration (eg. the activity within the hand I mentioned at the very beginning). Logically, your example implies literally zero about the source of any additional acceleration. If I ever said the hand does not contribute energy, please quote to me the passage where I claimed this.

I am open to criticism. I am not open to dismissal based on false representation of the situation and illogical deductions.

[richard black]

No, you don't understand and won't try. The simple fact that practically every post you make misuses terminology is enough proof of that. It isn't easy trying to discuss technical matters when one doesn't have a common technical vocabulary, and I haven't the patience to pursue that course here. Anyway, we're both wasting bandwidth. Once again, apologies to fellow 'streeters.

[nyiregyhazi]

After both thinking about this and working on various hand actions at a piano today, I'm even more mystified by these paragraphs than I was yesterday.


Indeed it's easy to show that gravity and the hand's weight are insufficient even for a single note if it needs to be loud. Get something that weighs 250g and hold it so that it rests very slightly (just in contact) on the surface of a piano key. Now suddenly release it, and see how loudly the note sounds under the influence of a 250g weight. Quite loud, but not very. (I just tried this.) Do the same for two adjacent keys using the same weight and it's only something in the mezzo-forte range at most. Therefore, we can deduce, the hand needs some effort from the arm even to play one or two isolated notes loudly.


I would hazard a guess as the inertial mass being in the region of 150g per key. So two of those, as in a two-note chord, have roughly the same inertial mass as the hand and, by action and reaction, would cause the hand to bounce upwards at the same rate as the keys go downwards if the hand were not restrained by the muscles in the underside of the forearm.



Not only does it assume the fingers and thumb have no capacity for initiating movement, it also assumes that the piano is played with a hand that is as unsupported as if it had been severed from the arm at the wrist. How is the mass of the hand supposed to be isolated from the mass of the forearm? I am truly bemused by what this estimate of 250g is supposed to have to do with anything whatsoever. Any action that causes a reaction force to push back up is stabilised by the inertia of the forearm and even the upper arm, to a notable extent. The figure of 250g is literally meaningless with regard to the reality of any conceivable playing situation- unless we are referring to a lifeless, disembodied hand being dumped on a keyboard.  

Earlier today I was practising the thumb straightening actions I described on a Yamaha grand. The level of sound I could achieve without any muscular action of the arm was scarcely less than when I was thrusting the whole arm in as hard as I can. Release at the elbow (not "effort" but the absolute polar opposite) makes a very large amount of mass available to stabilise the thumb's muscular action- substantially more than 250g. I am wholly bemused by both the claim that a hand has insufficient mass to create big sounds without effort in the arm and the premise that was supposed to have demonstrated the (supposed) impossibility. It doesn't even begin to hold together. Actions of the hand can make a fortissimo aided by nothing more than an arm that is passive. The only thing that says otherwise is a traditional assumption in the field of piano technique. Physics does nothing to discount the possibility.

[richard black]

I am wholly bemused by both the claim that a hand has insufficient mass to create big sounds without effort in the arm and the premise that was supposed to have demonstrated the (supposed) impossibility. It doesn't even begin to hold together. Actions of the hand can make a fortissimo aided by nothing more than an arm that is passive.

Just - no. The arm muscles are working - as you accept above. So why are you arguing that they aren't?

[nyiregyhazi]

Just - no. The arm muscles are working - as you accept above. So why are you arguing that they aren't?

I didn't say the arm muscles are working (except in the obvious role of preparing the arm in position to begin with- which does not contribute "power" under any definition). After that, nothing is required of the arm but enough release to let the thumb perform its action properly. It can be totally passive. At this stage, the mere existence of the arm and its and inertia renders the smaller mass of the hand irrelevant. The role of the muscles is in the arm is to do the furthest thing possible from work. The thumb provides the work.

In short- the arm's key role in this action is not to cease to exist in a physical form. As long as it succeeds in continuing to exist, I can't immediately see how its inertia could rationally be stripped of a role within any equations.

[lostinidlewonder]

The weight of the hand although not as heavy as the arm plays a much greater role in the transfer of energy to the piano than any other part of the body.

We make contact with the keyboard with our fingers which are often placed on the keyboard due to gravity from out hands weight. To alter the sound we can feel energy coming from various points of our body.
Generally we may visualize energy flowing from:

finger tips: pppp
1st knucle: ppp
2nd knuckle: pp
finger: p
under palm: mp
above palm: mf
wrist: f
forearm: ff
shoulders: fff
back: ffff

Experienced pianists will realize that playing in the p ranges is very difficult because using our entire hand weight would make our playing too loud. Disconnecting hand weight from the energy transfer to play in the quietest p ranges is quite an advanced technique to acquire.

But the contact of our hand to the keyboard is the most important step, it is the connection of energy to the piano then we push through the energy. This is how grand master pianists can make everything they do look so simple, the placement is always with the hand and its weight and then the energy travels through from points of the body, it almost happens simultaneously but if we had to measure it scientifically the hand weight places first microseconds before the energy pushes through the hands via points of the body. We do not consciously think OK now lets use our forearm to give power to these notes, if you did that in isolation to the hands placement on the keyboard you would be bashing the keys and your playing would look quite rough and sound harsh. Your fingers should always caress the keys even if you play loud, they shouldn't ever feel like they are slamming into the keys. You feel wasted energy transfer as your fingertips hurt or create large tapping sounds on the keys. It is of paramount importance the placement of the hand and this is isolated from the other parts of the body, although the separations is microseconds apart no one with proper piano training will say they connect the hand to the body directly with no separation.

So it is quite unimportant to get overly interested in how different parts of the body moves, so long your forearms are generally parallel to the ground while you play that is all you need to know. Focus on fingering and controlling your hand weight, the rest builds upon that, if you look at other parts in isolation to the hand then you are just going into realms that play little role in actual normal piano learning.

[nyiregyhazi]

finger tips: pppp
1st knucle: ppp
2nd knuckle: pp
finger: p
under palm: mp
above palm: mf
wrist: f
forearm: ff
shoulders: fff
back: ffff

I basically agree in perceiving that more of the arm is related to it, the louder that you play (not necessarily in pushing- but more in terms of just sensing it). However, I'm not sure if I see the worth in being quite so specific about exact associations. I'm rather confused by the pppp. How the can tip do anything separately from the 1st knuckle- unless it's braced and moved by the parts you place in the louder end?

We do not consciously think OK now lets use our forearm to give power to these notes, if you did that in isolation to the hands placement on the keyboard you would be bashing the keys and your playing would look quite rough and sound harsh.

Agreed. There's little the forearm can really do in an active role, if you think about it- except when the forearm is dropping down from some height to apply existing momentum. The only way to apply action from around the elbow when starting from contact is to either pull the forearm down or lift it up. To apply energy effectively by pulling the forearm down, you'd basically have to make the wrist completely rigid. Any slack whatsoever totally compromises what is already a very long and hence inefficient lever action. I'm rather skeptical about the extent that it's even possible to do very much with the forearm in an active way. I think the reason we don't think this way is because such actions are not terribly useful- except when the forearm's role is more passive. Simply for it to exist (as a stabiliser for movement in the hand itself) covers most of what's needed.

So it is quite unimportant to get overly interested in how different parts of the body moves, so long your forearms are generally parallel to the ground while you play that is all you need to know. Focus on fingering and controlling your hand weight, the rest builds upon that, if you look at other parts in isolation to the hand then you are just going into realms that play little role in actual normal piano learning.

From your description, I get a strong impression that you're looking at it in quite a similar way. Would it be fair to say that you're also looking at a rather passive involvement of the arm, for the most part?

[lostinidlewonder]

I basically agree in perceiving that more of the arm is related to ? ?it? ?, the louder that you play (not necessarily in pushing- but more in terms of just sensing it).

What is "it" ?

However, I'm not sure if I see the worth in being quite so specific about exact associations.

I said generally, you do not pull the energy from these EXACT points, it depends with the context of the pieces you are playing and the musical requirements.

I'm rather confused by the pppp. How the can tip do anything separately from the 1st knuckle- unless it's braced and moved by the parts you place in the louder end?

You can control the impact of the hammer heads to the string by the fingertips controlling the exact point of contact. I do not want to go further into detail with this in words because it is an advanced technique which requires musical context and the individuals hands to completely appreciate.

I SAID:
We do not consciously think OK now lets use our forearm to give power to these notes, if you did that in isolation to the hands placement on the keyboard you would be bashing the keys and your playing would look quite rough and sound harsh.

YOU RESPOND:
1) Agreed. There's little the forearm can really do in an active role, if you think about it- except when the forearm is dropping down from some height to apply existing momentum.

Q1): What is "active role"? Why would the forearm drop from "some" height to apply existing momentum? What is this existing momentum?

2)The only way to apply action from around the elbow when starting from contact is to either pull the forearm down or lift it up.

Q2): Why would you do this to produce energy to notes? It has no connection to volume control which is the issue the thread is discussing..

3)To apply energy effectively by pulling the forearm down, you'd basically have to make the wrist completely rigid. Any slack whatsoever totally compromises what is already a very long and hence inefficient lever action. I'm rather skeptical about the extent that it's even possible to do very much with the forearm in an active way. I think the reason we don't think this way is because such actions are not terribly useful- except when the forearm's role is more passive. Simply for it to exist (as a stabiliser for movement in the hand itself) covers most of what's needed.

Q3) If you say there isn't much one can do with the forearm why bother writing so much about it? You can have a loose wrist at contact to the keyboard then draw energy from your forearm, saying that any slack in the wrist would compromise it makes no sense. If you want to produce energy at the keys you do not have to make your whole body rigid to make the hand strike the key more powerfully. The hand is disconnected from the rest of the body at point of contact with the keyboard, then we can turn on where we want the energy to flow from. Maybe you can look into Bruce Lee's One Inch Punch I do think that when you play the piano with mastery you can produce great energy with very little observable physical exertion. To me it certainly has connection to martial arts as I grew up learning Kung Fu and Tai Chi. Anything rigid is useless, you can be too easily redirected, waste energy etc. The same applies for piano as your fingers constantly make contact with the keyboard.

In Tai Chi we learn about forces in the human body by "pushing hands", we can do theory, that is the postures, or consider physical posture axioms, but we can never understand it if we do not put it to applicable practice (practice where you apply knowledge in instances that are not predetermined situations). The same applies for piano, you do not consider the physical action without some context to practice it with. Your spa parter are pieces of music, words are not going to help you develop your technique, you need to go and do it. When you go and do it you will realize how you can approach the same issue with different tools, you react to the situation. If you ever hope in martial arts to be able to defend yourself you need to be able to respond to whatever situations you are confronted with. The same applies for piano, we do not solve our problems with a rule set, we start to deal with the situation we have and solve it with the problem solving skills we acquired from the past.

Of course this kind of general advice is difficult for the beginner/early intermediate to appreciate which constitutes the greater majority of piano players in this world. Technique requires discipline, thus those who try to evade discipline and attempt to solve it with word theory always end up running around in circles or looking at the leaves without appreciating the tree, let alone the forest!



I SAID:
So it is quite unimportant to get overly interested in how different parts of the body moves, so long your forearms are generally parallel to the ground while you play that is all you need to know. Focus on fingering and controlling your hand weight, the rest builds upon that, if you look at other parts in isolation to the hand then you are just going into realms that play little role in actual normal piano learning.

YOUR RESPONSE:

From your description, I get a strong impression that you're looking at it in quite a similar way. Would it be fair to say that you're also looking at a rather passive involvement of the arm, for the most part?

What is "quite a similar way"? I do not understand what you mean by "passive involvement of the arm". The arm does not want to stray from a parallel position to the ground, of course it moves from the position and I do not want to start discussing this in words because it is highly inefficient and something that should be done in context of exact passages of pieces. To consider the arm or any other part of the body while playing in isolation to pieces provides you only with very generalistic tools to describe what you are doing. Unfortunately none of which actually transfer anything interesting or revealing in terms of pianistic technique/development.