10th Fatigue....?

[Rob47]

Hey pianists

My LH thumb hurts...i can comfortably play octaves,9ths and 10ths (not white note to raised 10th, that's a stretch) with my LH.  But I've been playing a lot (learning rather) of Liszt's reminsces of Valse Infernale from Robert the frickin Devil, and the webbing between my thumb and index started to get not tense, but......tired? today.  Maybe not tired but just a little bit of pain....its a minor concern becuase the pain is pretty minimal.  My plan is to just take a break on banging out tenths, but how can I prevent such things from happening???  See when I play tenths they can be full and loud but its definitely still stretching when I play them which ultimately results in me playing with tension, right? Does that make sense?  Like the fact I'm stretching horizontally, then using a vertical motion to get sound out of my 10ths, I have a feeling that's some sort of a strain on some muscles???  I AM CLUELESS.  Does this make sense to anybody?  If anyone knows anything about homeopathic remedies I use Arnica Montana cream whenever I get muscle strain or sore muscles and it works real well....but practicing 10ths over and over again....there's got to be a way?  How do YOU deal with this problem?

Any ideas?

Your friend,

Rob

(p.s. my new end to every thread is "your friend" because despite I know none of you you are all my friends.  Because friends help each other. Especially with 10th fatigue.....haha just joking friends.)

[donjuan]

Robert the Devil is an amazing work, and you need to be an amazing physical specimen to play it well.  In terms of Octave work, it is like Hungarian Rhapsody No.6 x4.  Keep in mind Liszt had long fingers and complete independence of each finger.  When the public heard him play such works like the Grand Fantasy from Sonnambula, rumours once arose that Liszt had 6 fingers in each hand.  So unless you are a crazy genius like Liszt, we need to fake our way through all the demonic hell the devil himself has created for us.

If it hurts, you should really be careful--> dont do what I did and load up on painkiller and continue practicing, or you will ruin your hands, or develop into some long term problem.  I know this sounds hard, but you need to learn to stretch comfortably, and relax your hands beween every octave.  Try playing slowly, and yelling out "RELAX!" between octaves.  Soon, you will learn to relax without really relaxing, and then you can move mountains with your hands.  

your friend,    ....
donjuan

[ted]

I don't know the Liszt work but I have been playing quite a bit of Waller lately and he uses rapid left hand tenths of every variety - filled, broken down, up and centrally. I assume the problems with stride would be much the same, possibly even more demanding.

I am reasonably comfortable with all tenths but I soon found that the trick is to play them lightly. Because Waller was a big man, his music exuberant, and he tended to "belt things out", the natural inclination is to sink into the tenths more than is really necessary. I found doing this did tax my left thumb and little finger too much and getting through something like his "Gladyse" at speed was just too much of an effort.

I found I could still achieve loudness using a light and relaxed  but rapid stroke, and experienced no fatigue this way. It's curious, but subjectively I am sure my span increases a fraction when relaxed too.

Certain difficult novelty pieces replete with tenths, for example Sefton Daly's lovely "Brief Candles", also benefit from this approach.  

[IllBeBach]

I wish I could whine about having this kind of problem, but since I can barely stretch a tenth (and that uncomfortably) I guess I'll never be able too .  
    I read an interview with a concert pianist ( I forget who, sorry) that said it was allowable to leave out a note (such as the inner voice of an octave) in a fast passages of octaves (and I guess that would work for tenths too) every now and then just to give yourself a chance to relax.  The key is to make sure that the overall affect is still what Liszt intended, and that the change is not obvious to the audience.  I have never tried it, so I'm just repeating what I heard, you may find it useful.

[Rob47]

Wow thanks all for the great feedback!

All very helpful and interesting
Ted there is one particular section where a relaxed tenth approach really works well! gracias!

your  friend,
Rob

p.s.
donjuan i can't seem to send anything that big (tarentella) through email, but do u have MSN messenger? I could send it over  that....

[donjuan]

Hey Rob,
I dont have msn messenger, but I do have AIM.  You know what, dont worry about it.

donjuan