holding down the keys affecting sound

[noambenhamou]

Hi everyone.

My piano teacher says it's important to hold down the keys as noted on the sheetmusic even while playing in a place where the sustain pedal is all the way down.

The theory is this:
1) sustain pedal down
2) hit a C major chord stacatto
3) hold the sustain pedal down for 3 seconds and let go

OR
1) sustain pedal down
2) hit a C major chord and hold it down
3) keep holding the sustian pedal down for 3 seconds and let go of both the pedal and chord.


I understand piano mechanics pretty well. It seems that holding down the keys would have no effect. Also, what the deal with pianists trying to vibrate the held down note to try to get some vibratto? It just makes no sense mechanically to me.

Any ideas?

Noam

[keyboardclass]

It's never made any sense to me or plenty of others.  The thing is really to only pedal as much as required.

[richard black]

It's 'Staccato' and 'vibrato'.

The difference, to the limited extent there is one, is to do with releasing the dampers back on to the strings. If you rely on the pedal, all the dampers come down at once. If you hold the keys, you can release the pedal (if held) and then the keys a fraction of a second after, which often gives a more pleasing result with less side effect of damper noise.

Vibrato on a held chord is completely impossible, but if you believe it hard enough you'll hear it - the human brain and ear are easily fooled!

[fleetfingers]

I see what you're saying, that there are indeed many times when it's not necessary to hold the notes because the pedal is down. But, there are also many times when you'll want to release the pedal, for clarity, but still have a single note sustained. The only way to do that is to hold the key down with your finger. Your teacher is wanting to train you so you'll have the ability to do it.

I developed the habit when I played the organ for six years and didn't have a sustain pedal. Now that I do it automatically, I rely on the fingers more than the pedal and I believe my playing sounds better and clearer than it did before.

[quantum]

I also concur with the above, in that holding keys through a pedal gives you more options on the release of individual notes. 

However, sustaining notes is not the only reason to hold down keys.  When one approaches a key with the intention of staccato vs. held, these two techniques yield different methods of attack.  Regardless if pedal is used or not, these two different methods of attack will produce two different sounds.  It is not so much as the body (or held portion) of the note that receives much change, rather the portion that precedes it - the attack of the note. 

The wavering of pitch that is vibrato when we think in terms of the degree it occurs on other instruments is not possible on the piano.  However, there are inherent peaks and troughs in the amplitude of the sound.  A musician with a fine tuned ear could use the change in amplitude of the sound to a musical end. 

Try to think of these in terms of acoustics as opposed to mechanics. 

[noambenhamou]

"two methods of attack".
People comment on how to produce a certain sound of a piano as if one can change the voice of a specific key. Mechanically speaking, and correct me if i'm wrong, one cannot change the voice of a note. It's all about how loud a note is played, and the loudness is strictly controlled by the speed in which the hammer is moved up. So if you have the sustain pedal down and you hit a C stacatto without feeling and the hammer moves up at lets say 5m/s vs hitting that same C with "feeling" and legatto (holding down) and the hammer moves at also 5m/s, you will have the exact same sound no?

The only thing I can imagine is that different techniques would provide a pianist with more control over the speed of the hammer. 5.1m/s vs 5.2m/s

A pianist once commented on how I produce a nice sound by my touch on the keys. It's nice to hear but in the end, I was just sending that hammer up at a certain speed.

I agree with the fact that holding a key down allows you the ability to let off the sustain pedal a bit just in case you feel there is too much, without losing that specific note. Also, when I'm "planning" on holding down a specific note, I may naturally tend to hit the note a bit harder because my mind tricks me into the fact that it needs to sustain, therefore, bringing out the melody more.

I wish I didn't know how the piano works. Ignorance is bliss.

[quantum]

It seems you are intrigued with the mechanical aspects of the piano.  That is fine.  However, when one explores elements of sound that reach into the musical realm, one has to look past the mechanics of the instrument - after all it is only a tool.  Our goal should be the music, not the tools.  We are dealing with a lot more than just a piano here, we are dealing with acoustics, and the listener's perception to sound.  

Mechanically, the most obvious effect of a variance in key velocity is the volume in sound.  However, a lot more happens depending on the velocity with which you strike the key.  Listen to the overtones produced when you play keys at different velocities.  The emphasis is on the word listen - you need to finely attune your ears to being extremely detailed at picking up subtle differences in sound.  

[pianowolfi]

First of all it's fundamental to understand the concept of different voices and layers, and how subtly the balance between finger legato, pedal and holding notes/chords affects not only the overall sound but also the overall interpretation/playing of a piece. This understanding needs to come from musical understanding! Different layers, voices, dynamic levels, polyphony, being able to grasp the message/idea/conception/climaxes/dramatic centers of a piece etc.
A good musician will strive for playing on the "ideal" instrument, as he always will strive to play for the "ideal" listener.

[lostinidlewonder]

Holding down a note when you could use the pedal to sustain it merely sets you up to play a piece with more effort. There are some pieces which actually require finger legato since it is far superior to the pedal, Shostakovich Prelude and Fugues come to mind where although the pedal could be used to make things easier playing via finger legato will produce a much more refined  and defined sound. Also sometimes holding onto a note can provide increased balance and control of a phrase as opposed to releasing it asap. Also leading melodies generally like to have the fingers stuck on the notes by comparison to the support notes, even though they don't need to be, it helps us to voice what we are playing, thus the general technique of flattening fingers that deal with lead voices tends to be able to maintain contact with the keys with less effort this way.

[nystul]

There is a danger in supporting instruction with the wrong reasoning.  If a student with a basic understanding of physics and piano mechanics realizes you are spouting BS, it discredits the whole thing.  I'm sure some teachers know what mannerisms work for them without giving any thought to the mechanics behind it.  Some more analytical students might feel like they need to know why this and why that.  Give the wrong answer and they may soon realize you are wrong.  I'm not a teacher, but it seems like this would be an easy trap to fall into.

[richard black]

There is a danger in supporting instruction with the wrong reasoning.  If a student with a basic understanding of physics and piano mechanics realizes you are spouting BS, it discredits the whole thing.

This is SO TRUE! I can think of occasions from my own musical education....

[quantum]

It's all about how loud a note is played, and the loudness is strictly controlled by the speed in which the hammer is moved up.

Something I should add about loudness.  

The envelope of sound consists of three main components: attack, body (duration), and decay.  Each of these components can have a completely different dynamic (or loudness) level within a single note.  This is probably easier to observe in other instruments, however these elements can certainly be manipulated on the piano.  

For example:  
Fortissimo attack, pianissimo body.  Loud Whispering (it works in English, however not as much in languages that require pitch discernment).  The content of speech can be clearly deciphered even though the pitch component is barely audible.  A listener should be able to understand the speaker despite some distance put between the parties. 

Pianissimo attack, Fortissimo body.  Blurred, non-articulated speech. The pitch component is clearly audible, however the lack of definition in attack leads to difficulty in comprehending the identity of the words spoken.  Putting distance between the speaker and listener would make it even more difficult to discern words in the bath of pitch. 

[keys60]

I can't comment on your teachers theories because I'm not a teacher, however as mentioned, layering sounds. You can induce sympathetic vibrations from an open (undamped) and unstruck strings and encourage certain partials and harmonics by holding a note down and striking others.

I'm not exactly baffled or bewildered by this, yet I do have much more to learn on the subject.

[quantum]

You can induce sympathetic vibrations from an open (undamped) and unstruck strings and encourage certain partials and harmonics by holding a note down and striking others.

You can also use the sostenuto pedal to similar effect.  It will free both hands for playing other keys.