do you know any shortcut in piano learning road?

[nyiregyhazi]

"1. When I talk about analysis, I mean its musicological approach, so it must be defined to have any value. It is a basic assumption of both scientific method and academic research, and that is what I am about."

I wouldn't actually agree on that. For example Tovey's analysis of the Beethoven sonatas has no "method" as such. In no way is there any sense of a "defined" type of analysis. However, he makes a number of interesting points about such issues as harmony and phrase lengths. Analysis can take all kinds of forms. Nothing needs to be explicitly defined for it to be of interest. Sometimes, if someone just points out whatever grabs them it can make for plenty of interest.

"2. I did not invent semiotic analysis in music. I just apply it. When you say that the first steps are not semiotic, or that the issue of flats is a relevant musical semiotic topic, I don't know what to tell but to discuss this topic with Nattiez or Tarasti themselves. Because they have developed semiotic analysis in music and they developed the main methods that are used."

I see. It's the name of a methodical approach that has various connotations other than being a semiotic style of analysis? I'll see if I can look them up. Sounds interesting.

[perfect_pitch]

On the road to learning piano properly - there are no shortcuts... only detours.

https://www.playpianotoday.com/

And that above is one of them - I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

[sevencircles]

If you have a certain sticking point in a certaín piece I would suggest that you practice it slowly on a silent piano while you listen to music that you like then speed up gradually. Seems lika a weird way of practicing but it has worked for me and you don´t get bored as quickly. The music that you listen to is just a way of having fun while practicing.

 

[drazh]

Dear Drazh,
It depends.

1. A complete sonata is made of three, four movements. So, every movement must be regarded as a single work. And so, each will take a couple of weeks to be done, which will give you a two months period to complete the sonata (a standard period when you focus only on a sonata). However, there are two main issues.

dear jay
thank you for very useful post. but what about your previous repertoir practicing if you only focus on one piece?
best regards

[drazh]

If you have a certain sticking point in a certaín piece I would suggest that you practice it slowly on a silent piano while you listen to music that you like then speed up gradually. Seems lika a weird way of practicing but it has worked for me and you don´t get bored as quickly. The music that you listen to is just a way of having fun while practicing.

 

dear sevencircles
are you serious?
thanks

[gerryjay]

dear jay
thank you for very useful post. but what about your previous repertoir practicing if you only focus on one piece?
best regards

Dear Drazh,
that is where the beauty lives (to use a free translation of a local old adagio ). Your repertoire is to be played, as often as possible. So, you must carefully plan when to play each of the works you consider your current repertoire, to avoid overpracting or neglecting (yes, playing too much a piece that is done can be harmful).

Back to the focus issue, it means to focus at only one new piece at a time. Furthermore, it means to not put a second piece in your music rest until the first one is perfectly done. The idea of having 4 or 5 pieces with problems at the same time is probably the most perfect way of loosing time available.

Best regards,
Jay.

[sevencircles]

dear sevencircles
are you serious?
thanks

Yes! And it worked for me. If it´s a pure technical problem you have to repeat that part until you can play it and it is really boring to hear the same notes over and over.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes! And it worked for me. If it´s a pure technical problem you have to repeat that part until you can play it and it is really boring to hear the same notes over and over.

I'm not sure about listening to different music. However, I find it very useful to listen to comedy podcasts while doing dryer technical work. I can still hear what I am doing (so it's far from being completely separate from musical practise) and in many ways I concentrate better. It also makes you hear as if you're doing something fresh and new, when the headphones come off.

[pianowolfi]

I'm not sure about listening to different music. However, I find it very useful to listen to comedy podcasts while doing dryer technical work. I can still hear what I am doing (so it's far from being completely separate from musical practise) and in many ways I concentrate better. It also makes you hear as if you're doing something fresh and new, when the headphones come off.

If you really hear/listen to yourself you can't do anything other aside from it, and if you do "only technique" while listening to "something completely different" ( ) your "concentration" is just an illusion. Technical work requires full listening, full concentration. If it's dry it doesn't have anything to do with music, so it won't help you in the long run, I'm afraid.

[nyiregyhazi]

If you really hear/listen to yourself you can't do anything other aside from it, and if you do "only technique" while listening to "something completely different" ( ) your "concentration" is just an illusion. Technical work requires full listening, full concentration.

When you play a five-part fugue, are you really listening to every voice?

If so, what's so hard about listening to both someone speaking and the sound of a single hand (sometime even a single voice) on the piano? It hardly competes with a complex fugue.

If not- we're faking it all the time anyway. I wouldn't particularly want to practise a five voice fugue AND try to listen to a podcast. However, it's far less of a challenge to practise a technical passage slowly while hearing a human voice, than it is to be actively trying to shape a large number of voices. Arguably, it takes less concentration to listen actively to one musical voice and more passively to someone speaking, than it would take to listen to just two musical voices actively.


"If it's dry it doesn't have anything to do with music, so it won't help you in the long run, I'm afraid."

It already did, I'm afraid. I used to get so caught up in musical intentions, I was always getting the quality of movement all wrong. My musical instincts caused me to slip into bad habits, whenever they were at the forefront. By stepping back a bit, it's far easier to improve the quality of movement. The musical results in the finished product are some of the most notable parts of improvement. My dynamic range and ability to voice chords is hugely improved.

Practising evenly is not exactly profoundly musical. However, it's a very valuable way to practise. I have no patience to do so without something else to occupy me. If I don't have a distraction, I start exaggerating musical shapes again and often press too hard to get it- screwing up the quality of movement. I start playing- not practising. When I'm occupied I can step back. Then when I let rip later on, all kinds of bad habits are vastly less likely to kick in. There's a lot of dogma that people repeat about what is possible. However, it's just that most pianists who play blandly ONLY practise blandly. There are also many great pianists who did a lot of very dry practise through choice. As long as you don't practise drily through knowing no other, it's an excellent thing to have. There's a big difference between greatly understated shape- and outwardly unmusical shapelessness.

[gerryjay]

Although this question of focus would be better discussed in terms of neuroscience - in particular the chemistry of memory formation - I want just to share my personal experience.

Back in my undergraduate days, and prior to that, I used to study several hours a day, mainly watching TV simultaneously. I was not aware of many things I am now, so I couldn't figure out what happened when I did play live, or in any situation where my full brain capacity was on the stake. It was a time of mistakes on the stage, of faulty mechanics, of blanks...

Some years after that, my way of studying changed a lot and I must say it changed how much I enjoy studying. Now I don't do anything else, I unplug myself during the sessions (no computer, no phone), and the results are just another league. The most amazing change was the control of a work from its parts to minute details.

Of course there are other things that contribute to this result, but there is a single aspect that is interesting. When I used to study watching a movie, I was able to recall scenes, actors, even dialog lines that ocurred during my practice time when I played the work live. That is, the brain is stimulated to recall, and it fills up with everything available, not with what he is meant to. Now, when I play the only thing that come is the work itself.

Best regards,
Jay.

[nyiregyhazi]

Of course there are other things that contribute to this result, but there is a single aspect that is interesting. When I used to study watching a movie, I was able to recall scenes, actors, even dialog lines that ocurred during my practice time when I played the work live. That is, the brain is stimulated to recall, and it fills up with everything available, not with what he is meant to. Now, when I play the only thing that come is the work itself.

I've never experienced that while listening to podcasts. Have you ever tried that? TV is hugely different. For one thing, it requires the eyes. It's far more active. Listening to a podcast is vastly more passive and requires little attention. I usually go very slowly and watch the position of my hand in a mirror. If I was watching TV, I could never do anything close to as useful. Sometimes it's good to close your eyes and try to "feel" what you are doing. However, having the attention of that sense on a TV screen is altogether different. I have no doubt that it would indeed lead to sloppiness- whether you practise slow or at full speed.

I recently read an article about how the bright lights of a television have a hypnotic effect. There's some old evolutionary instinct that draws us to them- and which easily detracts from other senses. I think watching TV is a whole different kettle of fish. I simply couldn't do the quality of slow work that I can do while listening to a podcast, without it. I soon start thinking about the end results are start striving for them too early. I honestly focus better- and also keep myself more fresh for when I do really attentive musical practise. After time spent practising this way, it's like hearing music with totally new ears when you go back to playing through.

[gerryjay]

I've never experienced that while listening to podcasts. Have you ever tried that? TV is hugely different. For one thing, it requires the eyes. It's far more active.

Sorry...I must say I did listen to the TV, only watching a bit between practice sessions. And yes, I used to listen to radio while playing and the result was quite the same. But not to podcasts (I think they were not invented yet back then).
Best regards,
Jay.

[nyiregyhazi]

Sorry...I must say I did listen to the TV, only watching a bit between practice sessions. And yes, I used to listen to radio while playing and the result was quite the same. But not to podcasts (I think they were not invented yet back then).
Best regards,
Jay.

Did you listen through headphones? This might seem counterintuitive, but I believe it makes me listen to the piano better. If I hear a radio through a speaker, I'd have to strain my ears to pick it out and take my attention away from the piano. Because the sound of a voice is so immediate through headphones in the ear, I'm listening more for the piano. It almost makes my listening even more focused. It's like my ears are actually working to hear the piano, while the sound of the voice is just there. You could actually look at it as being more like a challenge to the listening skills and something that makes them focus in even more than usual. When the headphones come out, the sound comes right at you. You don't have to work to pick it out. You can just relax and hear all those details.

[gerryjay]

Did you listen through headphones? This might seem counterintuitive, but I believe it makes me listen to the piano better. If I hear a radio through a speaker, I'd have to strain my ears to pick it out and take my attention away from the piano. Because the sound of a voice is so immediate through headphones in the ear, I'm listening more for the piano. It almost makes my listening even more focused. It's like my ears are actually working to hear the piano, while the sound of the voice is just there. You could actually look at it as being more like a challenge to the listening skills and something that makes them focus in even more than usual. When the headphones come out, the sound comes right at you. You don't have to work to pick it out. You can just relax and hear all those details.

Interesting. Now, I do my hard work study sessions with headphones on a digital piano (I feel more confortable to repeat a thousand times the same phrase). But I don't listen to any other source while I'm studying for many years now.
Best,
Jay.