What's the most dramatic piano piece ever written?

[sordel]

Since you mention [Shostakovich], what about his Fourth Symphony?

From the perspective of drama?

Well, we were meant to be considering piano pieces but - going off-topic - I would have said that both Shostakovich's symphonies and his string quartets are highly dramatic. That said, his symphonies are close to film soundtracks, so there's a danger that today we tend to read back into the symphonies a drama that we've been conditioned to see in other contexts.

If I were choosing a piece of Shostakovich's orchestral writing for drama, then I'd probably go for the start of the fifth: it's a "popular" choice, but then, a lot of the works mentioned in this thread are going to fall at the popular end of the classical spectrum.

The fourth symphony (although it has started to shake off the worst excesses of his pre-denunciation style) still has that mocking sense of humour running through it, which tends to undercut the drama.

Of course, for pure drama you could take the Palace Square sequence from the eleventh, or the third movement of the eighth, or much of the thirteenth and fourteenth symphonies.

[cheesypencil]

does Busoni's transcription of Bach Chaconne count?

[thalbergmad]

does Busoni's transcription of Bach Chaconne count?

Of course it does, unlike some previous suggestions that are not even for piano.

Thal

[pianovlad1996]

Please excuse me if I didn't make a useful topic for you but for me it is quite important. I have to make a study about dramatic pieces like Scriabin Op.8 No.12, Impomptu Op.12 no.2 and many other. I thought that if I'll ask about "The most dramatic piano piece ever written" I'll found new pieces that I didn't know about.
But unfortunately I started other topics that offend and discourage some people from posting. Some write about English grammar in this forum, others become snobbish and a little melodramatic about definitions of words.
Please do not turn this topic into your own fun. If you think this topic is not interesting, find one because there are over 1000. Nobody forces you to give reply. I have a purpose and I'll not give up because someone doesn't understand the meaning of the word "dramatic". You can fnd this unprecedented word in a dictionary and after dozens of hours of depth please write on the forum.

[thalbergmad]

Well said Sir, you have put us all to shame and I will think of some dramatic piano music for you.

Please ignore the snobs and pedants. A simple question is not part of their programming so they are unable to answer without further input.

Most of the dramatic music I have heard would be amongst transcriptions. Take the climax of the Moszkowski/Wagner Isolde or the Pabst/Tchaikovsky sleeping beauty paraphrase for instance.

Thal

[pianisten1989]

yes, sorry about that...
But uhm, the liszt sonata, as I said.
The 2nd and 3rd Chopin sonata...
Mozart C minor fantasy and sonata
...

[sordel]

If it's for study purposes, how about looking at the Chopin C-minor prelude alongside the variation series by Busoni and Rachmaninoff? You could talk about the extent that the variations retain or diminish the drama of the original.

[thalbergmad]

You could talk about the extent that the variations retain or diminish the drama of the original.

Great idea, I have always wanted to talk about the extent that the variations retain or diminish the drama of the original. In fact, I might open up a chat room just for the sheer hell of it. Do you think 3 million words would suffice?

Hold on, I have just had an idea. Why not actually play the bloody music instead.

Thal

[sordel]

It's not clear in the o/p's post where he says that he has to "make a study about dramatic pieces" but it seems to me that he has been asked to think about a subject and is required to show work: either by finding works and performing them or (as seems more likely to me) by writing about them or discussing them.

I understand that you struggle with the idea of thinking about music, Thal, since you are unable to think for a second before pressing send on another threadcrapping post, even after o/p has criticised the previous response from posters to this thread.

[thalbergmad]

Outside of your programme is it??

Sordel unit unable to respond without further clarification.

Thal

[sordel]

Sordel unit unable to respond without further clarification.

Thal, o/p is a fifteen year old who, while commendably devoted to the piano, does not always express himself clearly and quite possibly does not have English as his first language.

In the circumstances, it is better to seek clarification if you actually want to help him, rather than simply using his thread as an occasion for point-scoring, sarcasm and superfluous demonstrations of the ignorance that is your particular metier.

My answer was a perfectly constructive response to the thread, and you're just sore that, as usual, your thinly-disguised personal attacks have gone miles wide of the target.

[ahinton]

Of course it does, unlike some previous suggestions that are not even for piano.

If by the latter you are thinking of the reference fo Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony, do bear in mind that it was published in a two-piano version many years before it was first heard in its full orchestral garb.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

They must be brothers.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Thal, o/p is a fifteen year old who, while commendably devoted to the piano, does not always express himself clearly and quite possibly does not have English as his first language.

I will reply to you in a style that you & Hinty use, so you can see how senseless and boring it can be.

There are some possible inaccuracies in your statement encapsulated with the quotation marks above. Firstly, since we are approximately half way through the year of our Lord two thousand and eleven AD, I would submit there is an equal chance of the original poster being 14 years old and an equal chance of the original poster being 15 years old. Since we are not aware of a date of birth, we cannot say for certain.

Additionally, you appear to be assuming that the "1996" included within the original posters forum name indicates a year of birth. This might very well be the case, but I feel there is a chance that it might be the year of his pet budgies birth or it might not actually be any reference to a year whatsoever. It could well be the original posters combination for a cycle lock for instance, or perhaps a pin number for a ATM card.

Lastly, you are referring to the original poster "who's age has yet to be confirmed" as him. Thus far, I have not seen any evidence to suggest this is the case (although I accept I may be wrong), so I feel before we continue with this thread, we should apply for a copy of the birth certificate to identify said gender, which will serve the double purpose of revealing the age. This might additionally give some insight as to the original posters first language, although a Country of birth would not guarantee that said first language would be that which is generally spoken in said Country.

Now, that kind of shite might even get me into the Sorabji Forum.

Thal

[redbaron]

I will reply to you in a style that you & Hinty use, so you can see how senseless and boring it can be.

Well said


Game, set and match to Thal methinks...

[ahinton]

Thal, o/p is a fifteen year old who, while commendably devoted to the piano, does not always express himself clearly and quite possibly does not have English as his first language.

In the circumstances, it is better to seek clarification if you actually want to help him, rather than simply using his thread as an occasion for point-scoring, sarcasm and superfluous demonstrations of the ignorance that is your particular metier.

My answer was a perfectly constructive response to the thread, and you're just sore that, as usual, your thinly-disguised personal attacks have gone miles wide of the target.

All that said, however, Thal is, I believe in his 40s, does indeed have English as his first language and the service that he provides in scanning and making available all manner of non-copyright music that would otherwise be very difficult or impossible to access is exemplary and of considerable value; I'm sure that it is therefore possible to forgive his occasional barbs (unnecessary though mot of them are), especially as he spends rather less of his time on them than some others do.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Great idea, I have always wanted to talk about the extent that the variations retain or diminish the drama of the original. In fact, I might open up a chat room just for the sheer hell of it. Do you think 3 million words would suffice?

Hold on, I have just had an idea. Why not actually play the bloody music instead.

I think tht 3m words would be far too many, frankly, but do please bear in mind that, laudable though playing the music obviously is, not everyone - even here on pianostreeet - is a pianist (some people here don't even play the banjo, or so I am reliably informed). Your point, however, remains a valid one to the extent that musicologists, for example, always do better if they keep their eyes on the ball of performance, conducting and composition as an essential part of their study and research (as indeed some of them fortunately do); the problem in recent times is that musicology has been elevated, in the academic world, to a kind of independent discipline in its own right rather than as music's handmaiden and, when that happens, the sheer obscurantism and verbal diarrhoea that can occasionally result sometimes makes depressing reading for those who are interested in music first, last and all the time.

I am neither a pianist nor a musicologist but, speaking as a composer, I am, for example, generally loath to write about my work, even when asked to do so; there are two reasons for that - firstly, that I hope and expect my music to be able to speak for itself and, secondly, that I have no desire to distract listeners from listening.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

They must be brothers.

Who are "they"? Shostakovich and who?

Best,

Alistair

[pianovlad1996]

Thank you for understanding me.
And yes I am 15 years old and I am not English (I'm russian) and probably some phrases are incorrect but I try to write them correctly as I can.
And sorry if I exaggerated but as I said earlier I have a purpose and I can't give up only because for somebody my topic is boring.

[sordel]

I'm sure that it is therefore possible to forgive his occasional barbs (unnecessary though most of them are), especially as he spends rather less of his time on them than some others do.

He wasted quite a lot of time on them last night, seeing that I knew from another of o/p's comments on another thread that he was 15. I do not know o/p to be male, but he has been kind enough to clarify that he is Russian, which it was not beyond the wit of a sensitive reader to have guessed.

Thal's barbs are not "occasional" and the thinness of his recent attacks have been equalled only by the premise on which he has launched them. It is all very well to act like a lovable curmudgeon to people who know you, but repeatedly to insult someone new to the forums with so little cause is not the behaviour of anything other than a small-minded bully.

If he wants forgiveness let him show contrition.

[ahinton]

I will reply to you in a style that you & Hinty use, so you can see how senseless and boring it can be.

As is about to be seen, any such attempt has failed dismally.

There are some possible inaccuracies in your statement encapsulated with the quotation marks above. Firstly, since we are approximately half way through the year of our Lord two thousand and eleven AD, I would submit there is an equal chance of the original poster being 14 years old and an equal chance of the original poster being 15 years old. Since we are not aware of a date of birth, we cannot say for certain.

There are several issues here. Firstly, his statement as to your age can only be iether accurate or inaccurate; there can be no "possible inaccuracy" about it. As it happens, it's inaccurate. Most people, including myself, would write "2011" in place of "the year of our Lord two thousand and eleven AD", especially those who do not believe in God. Most would also have written "I submit that there is an equal chance of the original poster being 14 or 15 years old" instead of what you wrote above.

Additionally, you appear to be assuming that the "1996" included within the original posters forum name indicates a year of birth. This might very well be the case, but I feel there is a chance that it might be the year of his pet budgies birth or it might not actually be any reference to a year whatsoever. It could well be the original posters combination for a cycle lock for instance, or perhaps a pin number for a ATM card.

Apostrophes would have been included in "poster's" and "budgie's" - and it would be most unwise and unlikely for anyone to use a card PIN number in a form ID.

Lastly, you are referring to the original poster "who's age has yet to be confirmed" as him.

Not "who's"; "whose" - and "him" should bear quote marks, since you are quoting.

(edited in boldface)
Thus far, I have not seen any evidence to suggest this is the case (although I accept that I may be wrong), so I feel that, before we continue with this thread, a copy of the birth certificate should be produced. This should serve the dual purpose of revealing the poster's age and gender; it might additionally give some insight as to the said poster's first language, although a country of birth alone cannot identify anyone's first language.

All that said, there's no way I'd have written this stuff; if I really wanted to find out a poster's age and gender (and I do stress "if"), I'd simply ask.

That kind of shite might even get me into the Sorabji Forum.

On the contrary, it might get you thrown off it if you persisted in it! That said, you can join that forum as easily as you can join this one; I'm sure that your valuable insights into the music of Sorabji would be greatly appreciated there (OK, so maybe I made that last bit up)...

Best.

Alistair

[ahinton]

He wasted quite a lot of time on them last night, seeing that I knew from another of o/p's comments on another thread that he was 15. I do not know o/p to be male, but he has been kind enough to clarify that he is Russian, which it was not beyond the wit of a sensitive reader to have guessed.

Thal's barbs are not "occasional" and the thinness of his recent attacks have been equalled only by the premise on which he has launched them. It is all very well to act like a lovable curmudgeon to people who know you, but repeatedly to insult someone new to the forums with so little cause is not the behaviour of anything other than a small-minded bully.

...or someone pretending to be one. Yes, we could indeed do with less of these instances - and they might well seem especially inappropriate when directed towards teenage Russians whose first language is not English and who could not be expected to appreciate some of the nuances involved. My use of the word "occasional" would perhaps better have been substituted with a caveat to the effect that Thal, unlike some posters, does have other more worthwhile things to write - and he does at least write them.

If he wants forgiveness let him show contrition.

I don't suppose that he "wants" anything of the kind!

Best,

Alistair

[sordel]

they might well seem especially inappropriate when directed towards teenage Russians whose first language is not English and who could not be expected to appreciate some of the nuances involved.

To be fair to Thal on that point, he was not discourteous to o/p; he simply hijacked the thread to join Redbaron's attack on Djealnla, after Djealnla had asked a perfectly proper question. Moreover, he apologised to o/p when it was drawn to his attention that o/p was not simply "shooting the breeze" but had a reason to want an answer to his question.

Unfortunately, when you get into these attacks that roll from thread to thread you will eventually ruin every thread that they enter. Moreover, Thal's hostility is not playful or benign. He has repeatedly suggested that people who like Sorabji leave the boards. Has it really never occurred to him that people who like Sorabji might also want to discuss something else?

[thalbergmad]

The pedant of the year competition 2011 is now down to two contestants. Everyone else has been eliminated as the remaining months of this year would not suffice to catch up with the leaders.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

He has repeatedly suggested that people who like Sorabji leave the boards. Has it really never occurred to him that people who like Sorabji might also want to discuss something else?

I have repeatedly suggested that people who want to discuss Sorabji consider doing so in their own forum, just so those who are not interested can have a little bit of a break.

Thal

[ahinton]

Unfortunately, when you get into these attacks that roll from thread to thread you will eventually ruin every thread that they enter.

The damage of derailment is indeed an ever-present one for those who post in threads for purposes quite other than those for which the thread was originally intended.

Moreover, Thal's hostility is not playful or benign.

I think that some of it is, even though much of it may not come across as such, especially to some of those whose first language is not English.

He has repeatedly suggested that people who like Sorabji leave the boards. Has it really never occurred to him that people who like Sorabji might also want to discuss something else?

I am as sure that it has done so as I am sure that his suggestions that admirers of Sorabji resign from this forum are not intended to be taken literally!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

And sorry if I exaggerated but as I said earlier I have a purpose and I can't give up only because for somebody my topic is boring.

Your topic is not boring, but some of the answers have been.

Thal

[ahinton]

The pedant of the year competition 2011 is now down to two contestants. Everyone else has been eliminated as the remaining months of this year would not suffice to catch up with the leaders.

I was unaware of the existence of such a competition until you drew attention to it here; are you organising it, promoting or participating in it?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I have repeatedly suggested that people who want to discuss Sorabji consider doing so in their own forum

If true, would you make - or have you made - similar suggestions to people who want to discuss Liszt, Henselt, Alkan or - heaven forfend - Thalberg - on this forum rather than having recourse instead to fora devoted to those composers (assuming that such fora exist)?

Best,

Alistair

[sordel]

I am as sure that it has done so as I am sure that his suggestions that admirers of Sorabji resign from this forum are not intended to be taken literally!

Difficult to tell really ... Thal expresses himself very poorly. I suspect that in real life his "jokes" have often led to misunderstandings and arguments. In any case, these fora are public and read by lurkers so he might do better by assuming that it is not always clear that he is joking.

[pianisten1989]

STOP GOING O.T. IN EVERY SINGLE POST YOU PEDANTIC SSA!
He clearly said that you should get the h-ll out if you didn't want to give him any advice. So please, GET THE H-LL OUT OF THIS TOPIC!
-----------------------
You could probably have a look at Beethoven sonatas as well. Most of the minor ones are very dramatic (ofc the major too, but maybe not in the general meaning of dramatic).
The same with Chopin etudes- op 10 no 4, 9, 12 and op 25 no 10, 11, 12.
Mozart a minor sonata is also dramatic in a way.
Bach Prelude (and fugue) in C minor from Bk 1, though the prelude is far more dramatic than the prelude, imo.

[pianovlad1996]

Thank you very much. You helped me a lot. The Bach is a great idea. 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

This is the most dramatic thread ever on pianostreet! Ok, maybe not.. 

Some suggestions:

Chopin: F min prelude
Liszt: solo Totentanz
Ravel: Gaspard de la nuit

[sordel]

STOP GOING O.T. IN EVERY SINGLE POST YOU PEDANTIC SSA!
He clearly said that you should get the h-ll out if you didn't want to give him any advice. So please, GET THE H-LL OUT OF THIS TOPIC!
-----------------------

So that know-it-all people can live their life by correcting other's spelling mistakes (on the internet) and being wise asses about what "Dramatic" is. Hmm, me tink it is a final movement from a Haydn sonata )
 

How is that an insult? If Haydn wanted to write a very dramatic piece (sorry if you don't understand what I mean..) he probably could.

Why I insult you? Well, I would more say "Make fun of", but you do that very well yourself, so I don't really need to. However, you didn't really give me any choice.

And I also want to make sure that we come up with One (1) definition of the dot (.). I want to make sure we all know what we're talking about... 

Now I will go and listen to something that a dear super famous friend wrote yesterday. I don't listen to anything but super modern music. Because of that, I am better than everybody else.

That darn old piece? No! That's at least several days old! I was thinking of the monumental "Opusium Choiricombum for silence, 2 frogs and a dead tree" it takes between 1 sec and a trillion years to complete. You'll recognize it by listening to the long fermata the dead tree is holding until the silence comes in with a great forte. It was written tomorrow... That's how modern it is!

Well.. My title isn't even real words! They are bloody post-languagism! Since it's a both post and an -ism I just made up, it's better than anything. I don't care if only I care about the music, that means that I am better and more intelligent than you!

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyhow, I'll probably add some pieces:

Liszt- B-minor sonata
Scriabin: Etude op 42/5

If you take the time to read the responses , you will see why we make fun of you people... But I guess that's too much to ask for from such a superior species as yourself.

What's the air like up there on the high moral ground?

[ahinton]

What's the air like up there on the high moral ground?

Like that of another planet, one suspects, though hopefully not like that in the poem that Schönberg set so tellingly in the finale of his F# minor String Quartet...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

What's the air like up there on the high moral ground?

Cannot compute, cannot compute, unable to respond without definition of moral.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

If true, would you make - or have you made - similar suggestions to people who want to discuss Liszt, Henselt, Alkan or - heaven forfend - Thalberg - on this forum rather than having recourse instead to fora devoted to those composers (assuming that such fora exist)?

Best,

Alistair

This forum is not exactly swamped with discussion about those composers and when they are discussed, it is not usually by those so lofty they could fart perfume.

Thal

[pianovlad1996]

The topic... Sweet and little topic. The subject does not contain computers and definitions....Probably you didn't wait your number of hours. Remember:depth and meditation helpes you very much.    

[pianisten1989]

Oh, and Bach- d-minor p&f from bk 2

[sordel]

unable to respond

No need to draw attention to that, Thal, you've established it pretty conclusively.

It's a shame that so many of these pieces are Romantic: how about Haydn, The 7 Last Words of the Redeemer on the Cross: I. Introduction: Maestoso et adagio?

[pianisten1989]

No need to draw attention to that, Thal, you've established it pretty conclusively.

It's a shame that so many of these pieces are Romantic: how about Haydn, The 7 Last Words of the Redeemer on the Cross: I. Introduction: Maestoso et adagio?

Yeah, that's a great piano piece...

[sordel]

Yeah, that's a great piano piece...

The piano version was produced by his publisher and approved by the composer. That was the version I was referring to.

[pianovlad1996]

Now that everyone has deviated from the subject, can you rank these pieces:
Rachmaninoff Prelude Op.23 no.5
Chopin Revolutionary Etude
Moszkowski Etude Op.72 no.2.
Chopin Etude Op.25 No.1.
Chopin Concerto no.1.
Mozart Concerto no.20.
Chopin Rondo Op.1.
Brahms Intermezzo Op.118 No.2.
Scriabin Etude Op.8 No.12.
It will really help me....
Thanks.

[ahinton]

This forum is not exactly swamped with discussion about those composers and when they are discussed, it is not usually by those so lofty they could fart perfume.

The forum is not exactly "swamped with discussion about" Sorabji either, at least to the extent that only a relatively small proportion of its members engage in such discussion, so there would appear not to be much difference here between discussion of his work and that of those other composers.

I have yet - and have no wish - to meet anyone who farts perfume, although I do of course know (as do you also) that Sorabji wrote a piece called Le Jardin Parfumé; however, since certain of your past posts might suggest that your knowledge of the subject of farts is considerably more "lofty" than mine, I'll bow thereto.

Best,

Alistair

[redbaron]

As transcriptions have been mentioned you could try Sibelius' piano transcription of Finlandia, wonderful piece.

Sordel and Hinty, shut the *** up, you're boring the arse off me now.

[ahinton]

Sordel and Hinty, shut the *** up, you're boring the arse off me now.

If you are bored by anything or anyone here, that's your prerogative but also your problem and yours alone; membership of this forum does not confer upon you an obligation to read posts that you might prefer not to read.

The particular 3-letter word for which *** might stand is unclear.

How you might manage without an arse may well be an important question for you but not one that anyone else here is qualified to answer.

Best,

Alistair

[pianisten1989]

Omg...

[sordel]

Now that everyone has deviated from the subject, can you rank these pieces:

 

I'm beginning to think you just might be the smartest person here, Vlad. 

By the way, before anyone asks and gets washed away by the flood of bile, he means "rank in order of difficulty of performance".

[thalbergmad]

at least to the extent that only a relatively small proportion of its members engage in such discussion, so there would appear not to be much difference here between discussion of his work and that of those other composers.

But the relatively small proportion produce more hot air than the rest of us put together.

Never in the history of piano forums has so much gas been produced by so few to infest so many.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

By the way, before anyone asks and gets washed away by the flood of bile, he means "rank in order of difficulty of performance".

Thanks for that, I would never have known otherwise.

Thal