Funny one... (at the Steinway dealer)

[hbofinger]

Today I ended up going to our new local Steinway dealer in Northern Virgina, who replaced Jordan Kitts. They had moved from one location in Tyson's Corner to a much larger space in the same shopping center.

I noticed a Bösi 225 in the store. I grinned at the very friendly sales consultant in the store, and noted "somebody must have traded that one in". He just said "piece of crap". I said "oh yeah?" and he said "yeah, the bridge is cut all wrong. Whoever cut this one must have been drunk." I asked "what year?" and he said "1972" or something like that (it was the 70's). I asked if I could try it, and he said go ahead. I played a little bit of Beethoven and then simply said "typical Bösendorfer". Him: "it's crap". I said "it needs a tune. By the way, what is wrong with the bridge?" His answer: "look, the inside pins are two far from the graphite. It will never hold tune. That was a lousy period for Bösendorfer." Then he let me play anything else I wanted in the showroom, including a beautifully (like new) restored B that I would recommend anyone to look at. Then I asked "how much for the Bösendorfer?" He just laughed "we haven't even priced it yet! Just make me an offer..."

Problem is (what I did not tell him): It was a complement when I said "typical Bösendorfer". The bass was the clearest, most expressive bass of any piano I tried in that showroom. Does anyone know of any "quality problems" with Bösi in the 1970's? I am almost tempted to have my own technician come over and check this one out.... (action was fantastic, by the way...)

[pbryld]

Although completely unqualified to answer, I seriously doubt that a piano of that caliber will come out any other way than perfect.

[hbofinger]

What I wonder about is if this is a new dealer's trick: Have what they may think is a bad example of the competition amongst all of their own pianos. For example, the worst piano I played on in another shop in the area, run by an extremely well known (and highly reputable) technician who is also the official Fazzioli and Bechstein dealer, has a horrible (in my opinion) "restored" Steinway B sitting right next to brand new Bechstein Bs. The Bosi I just looked at was clearly out of tune in the treble. A turn-off for anyone who does not know these instruments. The Steinways were perfectly tuned...

[pbryld]

Interesting. Well I hope someone can vouch for there not being a problem. You could probably end up with a very cheap large Bösendorfer!

[lhorwinkle]

I weep whenever I read a post that goes "... the salesman said ..."

Q:  How do you know when a salesman is lying?
A:  His lips are moving.

[silverwoodpianos]

This happens around here too.  An instrument is placed in a showroom and then neglected intentionally in a weak attempt to drive you to another instrument in the showroom; the neglected instrument out of tune is the last choice they would like to see you make……

Sometimes if you choose this one suddenly it has a structural problem and they are un-able to sell to you because they are so forthright and honest…..

[hbofinger]

Yeah, bad-mouthing your own merchandise does not make any sense unless you don't want to sell it, and want to use it as a foil.

Interesting - this guy also dislikes Kempff and Brendel....

[hbofinger]

I am looking at it again tomorrow....

[keys60]

The 70's were a lousy time for manufacturing everywhere, especially cars and pianos. Even Steinway was involved with cost cutting and made blunders, ie. teflon bushings, management and ownership changes. Harley went to AMF, Fender and was it Steinway(?) went to RCA. Sohmer went belly up, Kimball cheapened themselves right out of business, VW made the Thing lol. I believe the salesperson when he said the Bosi was suffering from quality control. However, I've noticed that many of the Steinway dealerships keep a top quality name brand piano in poor condition around just to sway you towards their own pianos. My local dealership had a Kawai baby grand around with a crappy action. Funny, how everything else they had was rebuilt.
Buyers beware.

[hbofinger]

When did Previn abandon Steinway for Evilvillage (Bosendorfer translated, German is my mother language)? Was that not in the 70s, when he got pissed at Steinway's teflon action components that clicked?

[hbofinger]

Follow-up: I went and looked at "the rocket" again yesterday. Now they priced it - a lofty $40k. I did some market research (eBay and Craiglist) and found that Bosis from the 1970's only go in the 20s. I called my long time technician John Bowen, and asked him if he'd be willing to look it over. He advised me that the right price is in the 20s. He also told me that though the sales staff at this dealership is aggressive, the owner is not and is rather reasonable. So I just put a letter in the mail addressed to the owner in person stating (a) what other 225s are out there at what price, and (b) if he is willing to talk in the low to mid 20's, I am wiling to pay for a pre-purchase inspection.

[silverwoodpianos]

Yep. They don’t want you to purchase the Bosie…..that’s the other side of the play…..either neglect it so it sounds lousy or place a high sales figure……

 A high figure on the Bosie makes the prices of the other equipment look more reasonable…. Your best move now is to  pay Bowen to appraise the Bosie for present mechanical condition and then local market value (your local market, not on-line markets) 

Keys60 Steinway in the early 60’s was purchased by CBS musical Properties. Long-time factory tech Ray Parada states they tried many attempts to rush production with several failures such as the bushings you mentioned, along with other items.

[keys60]

Ahhh yes. CBS, not RCA. Need to thinks of things after I've had my coffee. Thanks for the corrction, Dan. Didn't the actually play with the idea of rubber hammers. Thank God that never made it to production.

[hbofinger]

silverwoodpianos - Thanks for confirming my strategy. Bowen already told me what it should be worth in my locale if and everything is right. Because this is so out of line of the price they quoted, I decided I am NOT going to dump $100 into the pre-purchase until I know that if the piano passed the pre-purchase, they'd be willing to accept a reasonable price. Otherwise I would have blown $100 for nothing!

Outside of my region it is exactly the opposite: I found another one, same vintage, roughly in the right price range. In this case I'd pay someone there to look at it before I blew the money on a ticket to go look at it and make an offer.

I think this whole "production quality in the 70s" at Bösendorfer is a red herring. I think this is precisely the period where Previn parted with Steinway and moved to Bösendorfer.

Anyhow, I played it again today (I had to show it to my beloved wife so she knew what I getting us into). Out of tune, but bright (I like brighter pianos, as most Germans do), and a true radiant singer. It is not perfect (hardly any piano is). You get the typical more limited treble with this one when there is no pedal, but it opens up in ways with pedal that is hard to hear elsewhere. This is typical of these pianos without a duplexing.

[silverwoodpianos]

Actually it could be the best $100 you spend.  Two things this will reveal.

One, that you are serious about the purchase of this item.

Two, it will show the dealership owner that you are not interested in the other equipment and will walk if the price is not reasonable.

Look, they want to sell you something……it just might not be what you want to buy that’s all……

Let’s say the price of this one is 25K. A $100 dollar inspection is 0.004% of the cost…..

[richard black]

Let’s say the price of this one is 25K. A $100 dollar inspection is 0.004% of the cost…..

0.4% actually, Dan, but you're still an invaluable contributor to this forum! 

[silverwoodpianos]

Well something is wrong; I took the figure of 25K on a calculator. Then multiply by .004=$100

[hbofinger]

Thanks for those replies. Since I already wrote to the owner of the outfit, I think it is best that I await a reply before getting it inspected.

Does anyone know how long the pinblock on these things last? Unlike many others I have seen of even later vintage (including a 200 I have owned), there are no cracks in the polyester finish, and none in the ivory of the keys, which suggest to me that it was sitting in a climate-controlled environment. Also there was no sign of gumming or anything on the action.

Thanks for any insights!....

[steinway_d]

"I noticed a Bösi 225 in the store. I grinned at the very friendly sales consultant in the store, and noted "somebody must have traded that one in". He just said "piece of crap". I said "oh yeah?" and he said "yeah, the bridge is cut all wrong. Whoever cut this one must have been drunk." I asked "what year?" and he said "1972" or something like that (it was the 70's). I asked if I could try it, and he said go ahead. I played a little bit of Beethoven and then simply said "typical Bösendorfer". Him:"it's crap".' "

That guy was full of bs.

All bosendorfers that i've played on were amazing.

I played a Bösendörfer 290 Imperial (brand new) in Keyboard Concepts, Los Angeles,
and it was the 2nd most amazing piano in the world.

btw, the most amazing piano was at Fields Piano, Santa Ana.

Steinway Hamburg D (brand new).

"It's not bad"

I said to the salesmen

It was the best piano ever!!!!!!

steinway_d
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote from VH
"A piano is an orchestra with-. Eighty-eight things, you know?" Vladimir Horowitz

[hbofinger]

Actually, I ended up rejecting that Bösendorfer. I had my technician check it out. On my last visit I already noticed the bass was dead and needed to be restrung completely. He concurred, but thought the rest of the instrument simply wasn't that great. He told me "it's nowhere close to as good as the one you had." Also, they were not realistic on the price.

I never thought I would be in the market. But since now I am, albeit on a very limited budget (low 20's), I have found something that both my tech and I fully agree on (again): A 1970 Yamaha C-7, completely rebuilt in Japan, for $21k. I am going through the financing process right now.

[keyboardkat]

When did Previn abandon Steinway for Evilvillage (Bosendorfer translated, German is my mother language)? Was that not in the 70s, when he got pissed at Steinway's teflon action components that clicked?

Previn did not use Steinways.  He was a loyal Baldwin artist for many years.   What happened was that Baldwin hired a concert and artist manager named Myron Martin who irritated and insulted a lot of artists (He was happier, though that he got the Baldwin onto the David Letterman show, figuring they'd sell more that way).  He drove a number of Baldwin artists to other piano companies.   In Previn's case, my understanding is that Baldwin would not send a piano for Previn to a music festival in nearby Westchester County (the name of the festival is escaping me right now).   

There's nothing wrong with Baldwin artist pianos, it's that the company's management seems to have the collective IQ of an ashtray.   In any case, Boesendorfers are completely handmade in Vienna by old-world craftsmen who really know what they're doing.  It was the piano of choice for Oscar Peterson.