First Piano advise.

[snoot]

Hi everyone. I'm looking to buy my first piano so i hoped i'd get a little advise. I have been trying to decide on a piano now for quite some time without coming to a final choice. One of the problems I'm having is that I've only played digital pianos and keyboards and very little on real pianos so I've no idea what I'm looking for in the sound of an acoustic piano, if that makes sense. Piano suppliers are also very limited where i live in the UK, So trying lots of different pianos isn't easy either. I have a budget of between £3-4000 for an upright. I have sampled three different makes up to now, Yamaha U's, Kawai K's and a Petrof. First thing that surprised me with the Yamaha's and Kawai was how light the keys are. Is this a good thing? Coming from keyboard to weighted keys on a digital piano, my playing improved immensely due to the strength in my fingers. The keys on these two seemed quite a bit lighter than my digital. Does this matter?

The other worry is reconditioned U3's. I preferred the sound of the U3 of all the models and makes i tried, but the one i looked at was very rough around the edges and was not reconditioned. It was of similar price to reconditioned models I've seen advertised with other suppliers in the UK (around £3600). Does anyone have any opinions on these? or experience with any Uk suppliers? I also found the Kawai K2 to have a nice sound but was at the top end of my budget although thats for new. Though I'd hope i could get the price down some. The petrof i've played belongs to my niece. I like the heavier weight in the keys, although i couldn't judge very well on sound as it's in desperate need of a tune which is very off putting.
Any advise would be much appreciated, as I've never owned a piano and i'm wanting to start lessons again after a lot of years but obviously piano lessons and not keyboard. I will be playing mostly classical music and probably at around grade 5 playing standard.
Thanks again in advance. 
 

[jimbo320]

My advice to you would be to please yourself as much as possible. I'm not big on verticals but do prefer Yamaha for a host of reasons.
An acoustic piano is a costly investment to be sure and doing a lot of shopping is needed. The important things are sound and how it feels.
To each their own. I play mostly on a DP and synths.
But I love playing on my friends C5 too.
Good hunting, Jimbo

[ionian_tinnear]

My first piano of my own is a Kawai.  We still have it, 30+ yrs and going strong.  Never any mechanical issues, no broken strings, easy to tune and stays in tune.  Has a little bit heavier action that Yamahas of similar quality, but not as bright, more balanced tone.

The yamahas often are very bright.  I know people here that got yamaha years after I got my Kawai, everyone of them has has problems.  Broken strings, action rebuilds because they got to loose, or just got replaced by another yamaha..

Sound likes I'm promoting Kawai here, so don't misunderstand, yamaha does make good pianos, uprights and grands.  Best piano in town is a 9' concert Yamaha, beats the fancy Steinways at our fancy concert hall, easily..  But, for the home or small studio, my experience has shown Kawai out-lasting Yamaha.  And I like the more balanced tone too.

Of course, like Jimbo and we all say, play a lot of pianos, all makes, models, years, until you find one that 'fits'.  Yamaha vs Kawai?  A tossup really.

[john90]

I note that you are not a novice by any means. If you are based in the UK, I would say keep your digital for when you are on the move, and get a Bechstein grand. Check the iron frame for cracks under the music desk area (google has lots on this). 2K should get you something fantastic, privately. Visit about 10 or so, over a few months. As you say, Yamaha uprights fetch silly money, even in relatively poor condition. The Bechstein should be in better condition than the uprights you describe.

[snoot]

Thanks for your advice all. I have mainly synths and workstations too Jimbo, but i've wanted a piano for a long time now. Last time i went shopping for one, i ended up with a korg m3 88 and quantum leaps piano gold software.  but obviously it's just not the same. This time i'm not settling at anything other than an acoustic.

I am certainly tempted by the Kawai K2 Ionian, i'm going to go back and have another go this week. Maybe the tone on the U3 is a bit bright. It's realy difficult to decide with something that i have no knowledge in. I suppose it's a case of what feels right.

The thought of going from nothing to a grand piano is a very daunting thought John. I certainly have the room for it but i was always under the impression i wouldn't get much of a grand for that kind of money. The Bechsteins certainly look the part after googling them, ranging from about £5000 - £150000 (if only.... ) but imagining my self checking for cracks in iron frames etc could be a dissaster waiting to happen. 

Thanks again for all your helpful advice.

[richard black]

You can get amazing deals on grand pianos because they're actually quite hard to sell, but you won't get those deals from a dealer, only from a private seller, and you may have to sift through a few prize turkeys before you find a good instrument. So you'll need the help and advice or someone who knows a bit, either a piano tuner/technician (ideally) or a pianist who's well experienced and knows at least a bit about the insides.

Speaking personally, I bought (about 4 years ago) a Bechstein Model V grand (202cm), made in 1889 and quite thoroughly reconditioned in the mid-1990s, for £2500. OK, it cost me another £800 to have it moved because it was a crane job, but even then it's still in your budget. A nearly perfect grand piano for well under £4000. But obviously you have to be in the right place at the right time for one of those!

For your sort of budget, I would look for a British or German piano, upright or grand. Welmar (the premier UK make) made very good instruments which have a pathetic resale value, which is all in your favour when you're buying. Some not-too-old Ibachs are excellent.

[silverwoodpianos]

All good comments about instruments. One thing that has been missed is this; in the original posting the OP mentions….

Piano suppliers are also very limited where I live in the UK, So trying lots of different pianos isn't easy either.

While it is always good advice to look at a number of instruments previous to purchase, has the OP considered the fact that finding a good technician might also be difficult given the scarcity of available dealerships in your area?

I often make this comment to people looking for a piano …….

“Pianos are easy to find. A good service technician you can work with over years of use is the far more difficult process.”

Something to think about.

[pianopassionate]

Hi. IMO, you will get far more for your money with a good used piano. The only caveat is that you MUST have an experienced professional piano tech inspect the instrument BEFORE you buy it. Yes, this will cost you some money for his/her fee, but it can save you from wasting your money on a lemon.
You can do all the primary piano hunting by yourself. Just narrow down the field by taking notes as you look at each one. You can use a simple spread sheet to score each piano on its various attributes such as tone, touch, appearance, maintenance record, price, etc. and when you narrow the field down to a few, then call in the tech to check them out.
Usually, a good tech can save you money by pointing out any problems that may exist to the seller (most private sellers are not looking to rip you off; they just want a fair price for their piano and most are amenable to adjusting the price if they are made aware of a costly problem).
I hope this helps.

[john90]

Finding a good tech is difficult. You need to learn some things yourself, by shadowing a tech on a couple of inspections, keeping in mind that you are testing the tech too. I would ask the owner if your tech can tune it while he is there. It is difficult to make a poor piano play perfectly. I find that by playing a few notes, I can rule out most pianos. Don't buy if it is not tip top. You have digitals for when second best is good enough. Quality old grands in good shape, can last for ages with simple maintenance, this is why a nicely setup Bechstein can go on for years with just maintenance from a good tuner/tech. Uprights need to be more complicated to fit in a small space, and well worn mass produced ones are not fun to play, and asking for trouble longer term.

[snoot]

Thanks for your help and advice all. To be honest, if it was a case of hunting down private pianos, finding a piano technician, then taking them along with me, i would still be sitting here this time next year without a piano. Searching classifieds in my area ususaly involves finding pianos that people would struggle to give away. Which means i'd probably have to travel up and down the country looking at pianos which are miles and miles away. I just couldn't find the time and don't have the inclination for such a task. I wish i had

I was at another dealer today to try and get a feel for different makes of piano. There were quite a few refurbed grands there, GEBR DOHNERT, STECK, DANEMANN were the ones i remember but none were that great. I tried a Yamaha U1 which sounded better than all of them. I then tried out a new ESSEX which impressed me as did the BOSTONs which were above my budget. I also played a SAMICK grand which sounded and felt great to me but was ruled out because it was £6100. Has anyone had any experience with these pianos? I just know i could get a great deal on this piano if i went for it and 10 years guarentee. Or would i be making a big mistake? I understand its probably no Bechstein, but it's the hassle of getting a piano like this thats putting me off. I just want to play

[john90]

This is brilliant progress. This Boston is your benchmark for now. You really need to try lots of pianos, without buying, and see what sounds great and feels great, irrespective of cost. This means both really cheap and really expensive.

Then when something cheap comes up that sounds great and feels great, it is a prime candidate. I don't know where you are in the UK. But just as an example, there is a Broadwood baby grand on ebay, 1900s, very clean modern looking, in a nice house in Scotland, £100, 1 bid, 1 day 12 hours to go. That might be a fantastic piano. You want something relatively modern, seen light use only, owner moving house or passed away, etc. Something almost as good as new, it has to sound right, and have a good touch like the Boston, which might be a similar quality instrument. Everyone goes to a dealer looking for a bargain, if a decent piano comes in, unless it is over priced, it will often be sold before you see it. It is easy for dealers to get left with a collection of poor old grands. There are poorly restored Bechsteins, Boesendorfers and Steinways out there too, with silly prices on them.

If you want something that plays and feels as good or better than this Boston, in budget, I think you need to be prepared to stick with the digital for up to a year. You need to be totally blown away, completely shocked by the piano you are getting.

[snoot]

I found and purchased a piano today.
 

If you want something that plays and feels as good or better than this Boston...

Sorry, i have no patience.... I moved up from the BOSTON uprights and  had a go of a two year old BOSTON GP156 Grand and was absolutely blown away. What a beautiful piano. Everything just felt right. So i up'ed my budget (for the 3rd time..... lol ) and bought this baby. It's being delivered this friday. I Can't wait. Thanks again for all your advice everyone.

[dedilya]

Congratulations on your Boston 156. You are going to love it. Do not listen to anybody saying that it is just overpriced Kawai (which is a very good piano). If you read Larry Fine book, you will find how different they are even being built by the same factory. Just keep humidity 45-55% and tune at least 2 times a year on peak of humid season and peak of dry season. I have Boston 163 and after 3 years of keeping humidity in that range the piano blossomed.

[bleicher]

Congratulations! Happy new piano! I bought my first proper piano 3 years ago (also a Boston) and it has quite literally transformed my life.

[jimbo320]

Congrates there Snoot. Happy tickling......(The ivory)