The London Riots, August 2011

[cjcarrington97]

As it says anything but piano, I thought this would be a good topic.

If you don't know, but basically there are massive riots going on in not only central London, but north, and south, (where I live), London.
The general thing is, a policeman shot a young man trying to shoot him.
A lot of controversy emerged...
A peaceful protest occurred...
A ..not so peaceful protest emerged which involves looting shops, mainly footlocker....
And NOW! half of London seems to be joining in with this madness.
I am quite scared that I live where the next lot of riots are meant to take place. And thankfully for now, people aren't rioting through houses, and there's not much up here to loot.

Please, if you don't know much on this, have a look on various news websites and news television.

Please get back to me and hope to have a good discussion upon this.

[starlady]

I don't have anything to discuss about these awful things. I just hope that are not in any danger. Take care, s.

[alessandro]

What I see and here from hear, is horrible, awful, terrible.   It can make me sad.   I hate violence, I can't stand violence in any form.   I'm a pacifist.   I can't even stand the "social", intellectual explanations some left people give to this violence, finding (the) reasons to explain this outbursts.  This are acts of destruction, this is theft, this is brutality.  No more, no less.   I wish that everybody (and I wish it also for myself) finds the force to express disapproval right in the heat of this hellish events.   To say, whenever we see injustice, what we think of it, and condemn it.  

I make a very small sidestep, cause I feel more "explanations" coming...   The world should get rid of the word 'unemployment'.   What is it that people, politicians, leaders have with this sacro-saint notion of "employment" (not to confound with the notion of 'work', a notion that is also over-valued).   I think there is too little nothingness in the world.   People should cope with a fair deal of boredom and nonsense.

Let's hit a nice note with our pinkies, a black and a white one.

Peace and love to you all.

[cjcarrington97]

Many thanks to the both of you and I don't know how much longer London will take before the whole of this place is following madness.

I mean, 200,000 rioters against 12,000 policeman. ._. It's quite depressing really...

[richard black]

Of course it doesn't help that 'normal' people have locked themselves indoors. In Peckham last night a few of us were just talking calmly and reasonably with looters, not telling them off exactly, just making the point that what they were doing is pointless and self-defeating. Of course, they had the jump on us so by the time we turned up one place had been torched and a few others broken into, but I reckon it could easily have got worse. Instead it just drifted away into nothing. The 'them and us' mentality has its part to play in the back story of the riots.

[cjcarrington97]

Of course it doesn't help that 'normal' people have locked themselves indoors. In Peckham last night a few of us were just talking calmly and reasonably with looters, not telling them off exactly, just making the point that what they were doing is pointless and self-defeating. Of course, they had the jump on us so by the time we turned up one place had been torched and a few others broken into, but I reckon it could easily have got worse. Instead it just drifted away into nothing. The 'them and us' mentality has its part to play in the back story of the riots.

Oh my! :O I hope everything is fine up there and stuff, I'm really sorry to hear this.   
I mean it's quite unnerving the fact that right now, I hear that my area is on fire. ._.
I also hear that these ridiculous rioters are moving down to the West End by 4 AM. Yes, unless they are so uneducated that they can't tell the difference between AM and PM, the time stands.
Though the amount of rumors I've heard, I try to take most of this with a pinch of salt.
I mean, I had a sympathy for them at first, as these 'mindless thugs' haven't exactly been given help they need in the past. This is a bigger problem as to why they are mindless.
And now I find my summer holidays are completely ruined because of these people!

Anyway, please stay safe and hope for the best for everyone up in Peckham.

[bleicher]

A professional musician I know had her flat burnt down the night before last, losing everything including two cats. I don't know her at all well but spent most of yesterday upset thinking about it.

[starlady]

Of course it doesn't help that 'normal' people have locked themselves indoors. In Peckham last night a few of us were just talking calmly and reasonably with looters, not telling them off exactly, just making the point that what they were doing is pointless and self-defeating. Of course, they had the jump on us so by the time we turned up one place had been torched and a few others broken into, but I reckon it could easily have got worse. Instead it just drifted away into nothing. The 'them and us' mentality has its part to play in the back story of the riots.

That was very brave of you, especially since you were presumably, this being Britain, unarmed. While I agree that it would help if more people did that, I am also now worried about you personally.  I suppose that mixed feelings are inevitable in such a messed-up situation.  Take care, s.

[gep]

The London/UK riots are in the news quite a bit overhere (Dutchiland), and I must say I am appalled! Looting, fighting, torching and whatnot, terrible for all those many who are the victim of it! What makes me puke is the way some people say these riots (war would be a better term perhaps) is the consequence of those rioteers being "unemployed", "bored" and more of that bullshat. Whomever loots a shop or torches a house or robs bystanders or throws stones chooses to do so, and there is simply not one single reason why doing so would be even remotely right or understandable, let alone someone else's fault.

My thoughts are with all those innocent victims and their near and dear, who suffer from the madness that seems to overtake London and several other places. As for the rioteers, you may call me blunt, but I would say that one does not talk with a damaging vermine, one disposes of it. As far as I am concerned, the police would be free to fire upon the hooligans, and I do not mean with rubber bullets.

Hopefully a state of peace can and will be resturned soon, and the damage done to the victims be compensated fully, insofar possible (one cannot give back a life or health that has been stolen), and wholly coming out of the pockets of the hooligans.

all best,
gep

[emill]

so UNBRITISH!!!  Extremely difficult to comprehend why it has
conflagrated into an almost a city-wide thing. There must be so
much pent-up anger and frustration among some Brits to explode
into something like this... as if it was just waiting for any excuse.
APPALLING anyway you look at it!!  

[lostinidlewonder]

There is no reason for this violence. The ball might have started rolling because of this and that, but in all reality, the mob mentality is a very vicious and tempting force especially for young angry people.

[oxy60]

The anarchists are waiting in the wings. They are rebels without a cause. Britain has cradle to grave welfare. Has anyone noticed that at a certain point they will riot anyway. You can't buy them off.

Shall we cut off their checks? At least then we won't be funding the disloyal.

[chopinspride]

It just shows how the world is in such a mess. David Cameron's "Big Society" has turned everyone in vigilantes. The goverment doesn't want to spend money on policemen. I have always thought putting faith in people was wrong. I know that that is true now. We should put our faith in God instead.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[cjcarrington97]

A professional musician I know had her flat burnt down the night before last, losing everything including two cats. I don't know her at all well but spent most of yesterday upset thinking about it.

Oh wow  I'm so sorry to hear, and hope she is slowly getting back on her feet.

It seems now that, after all this fear the rioters want to move out of London and somewhere else. As the overload of police have prevented their interests here, and in any cases, they've probably got what they wanted here anyway.
I must inform, one of the major places to be hit was Croydon. I was on the bus and passed the Reeves' Corner as I was going to Croydon and the burnt down building...It was...shocking :O
I can only give sympathy for the Reeves' family and hope for the best in them in the future. I can only pray for this to all go away.

[richard black]

We should put our faith in God instead.

Um, wouldn't it be better to do something a bit more practical?

[gep]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/british-rioters-the-spawn-of-a-bankrupt-ruling-elite/story-e6frg6zo-1226112640970

ooops....

And I'd dearly wish the situation in the Low Lands would be rather different (even when the situations, as yet, not so bad as it seems to be in the UK...

[perfect_pitch]

We should put our faith in God instead.

Personally - I'd rather put my faith in the Easter Bunny than in God.

[pianoman53]

Personally - I'd rather put my faith in the Easter Bunny than in God.

How can you put your faith in something that isn't real?!

He he he

[chopinspride]

Personally - I'd rather put my faith in the Easter Bunny than in God.

If we put our faith in God, if we give everything we have to him, we will be given the peace of Jesus Christ. This peace which enables us not to care about what happens on earth. This peace which makes us know that we have a place in heaven.


John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[perfect_pitch]

If we put our faith in God, if we give everything we have to him, we will be given the peace of Jesus Christ. This peace which enables us not to care about what happens on earth. This peace which makes us know that we have a place in heaven.

OH F U C K OFF!!!

Don't use this bloody forum as a way to preach your bible sh*t. There is no peace on earth, and in the millions of years humans have roamed on this planet, God hasn't done sh*t to give us any.

Although, I can't tell you not to have a bible quote in your signature - I sure as hell do have a problem when it's spouted (repeatedly) by a crazy person in a piano in EVERY SINGLE BLOODY REPLY!!!

Anyway, enough with the bible crap - let's get back to the subject at hand. The London riots, which is what this thread was originally about. Personally, since the whole thing started when the police shot an armed man - I think he only had himself to blame.

[ahinton]

OH F U C K OFF!!!

You're going the right way about getting a warning here. I have no patience with what you're railing at either, but there's no need to respond to it with incivility.

Anyway, enough with the bible crap - let's get back to the subject at hand. The London riots, which is what this thread was originally about. Personally, since the whole thing started when the police shot an armed man - I think he only had himself to blame.

The only problem appears to be that evidence now suggests that the man shot dead by police was in fact unarmed.

Best,

Alistair

[oxy60]

In either case of whether he was armed or not, what are the rules of engagement for the police? Who is in charge of the police, above the chief?

[richard black]

If we put our faith in God, if we give everything we have to him, we will be given the peace of Jesus Christ.

The great irony about this seems to me to be that Jesus was indeed a good person whose example, in many ways, we would all do well to follow - the only problem with him being that he was a bit religious. Why is the whole God thing necessary?

[chopinspride]

I don't want to turn this forum into a bed of religious unrest. I am simply telling you what I know is true. My first post was relevant to this topic. I spoke about the goverment and how we shouldn't trust mankind, only god, because man always fails us. You showed interest in what I have to say and I took it as a question. I answered it with the truth. I would like to convert people to christianity. I post helpful answers to the topic and, afterwards, tell you all some truths.  If God touches only one person through what I am saying then what I am doing is a success. I will not try and challenge your statements as I think that will anger you even more. I am a pianist and I am preaching what I believe. Jesus was more than a "good person."

The great irony about this seems to me to be that Jesus was indeed a good person whose example, in many ways, we would all do well to follow - the only problem with him being that he was a bit religious. Why is the whole God thing necessary?

I am afraid I don't understad your question. I will answer it if you explain it more.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[gep]

The only problem appears to be that evidence now suggests that the man shot dead by police was in fact unarmed.

Best,

Alistair

I think I read somewhere (please do not ask me to quote; it was at work and I'm on a holiday right now) that the man shot dead may have been unarmed at the time, but that people in the neighbourhood knew him as a kind or criminal career man. I wonder if the police would have shot him dead if he was quietly walking down the street with a bunch of freshly picked daisies... (Not that I think the expertise of policemen to make the right decisions at all times in infallable...).

But even if the man was on his way to kindly give help to an elderly lady, and thus was shot wholly innocent (which should need some serious repercussions to the policeperson firing, for that would be murder), would that somehow make right all the riots, thefts, plundering, firesetting and whatnot?

If we put our faith in God, if we give everything we have to him

Hmm, yes, usually His servants are quite severe when it comes to that, giving all to God, by way of giving it to his personell...

But can we PLEASE quit the preaching; apparently you are happy in it, but there are people here without their pink spectacles on, and have had a good look at history and humanity in it. The sugar quickly melts away, especially when looking at the 'peace of [fill in diety/dieties of choice]'....

all best,
gep

[cjcarrington97]

Please can I remind that I respect EVERYONE'S opinions in this forum. And I shall clear a few bugs on the whole policeman thing. Basically, the policeman shot the guy, who yes, was seen as a criminal.  BUT, YES, he did have a gun, he just didn't fire it, and I think that he was going to.
So the policeman, in any sense, shot him, to protect himself.
The reason why many Londoners are in rage is because the so called rioters, I can assure 95% of them were not causing carnage because of the guy, or rather Mark Duggan, who was shot. They done it because...
-They could...
 the police couldn't do ANYTHING as far as anyone in London is concerned.
-A message to the government,
 that due to, I don't know if you know, but prices like University has been raised incredibly, so, that's a section of young people on the streets. And the major banks caused the recession, so more money... It's basically a whole money thing... And when our government is about as reliable as a chocolate teapot, the people are going to revolt.
They say, History repeats itself right?, Well then I suppose you could say it's like the Peasant's Revolt of 1381, in Britain.

Many are raged, but things have died down for now. I just hope something is sorted for these young people, cause now I re-evaluate this, I realise it was almost certainly going to happen sooner or later.

Many of these people, not just young, but the rioters, mainly, the media are very rude to...
For example...
In the papers, I see how Black people are probably scrutinised the most.
These people are called 'yardies' or 'chavs' ...a label that doesn't give you much credit.
Then again, people label themselves as such... ._.

Anyway, I hope I have cleared up this a bit.
Cj

[perfect_pitch]

You're going the right way about getting a warning here. I have no patience with what you're railing at either, but there's no need to respond to it with incivility

Considering how much spam this site has gotten in the last 6 months, I thought it was good just to knock it on the head... especially the pattern that Chopins Pride keeps following - there seems to be some similiarities.

I answered it with the truth. I would like to convert people to christianity.

To me - this proves my point. If you want to convert people - go to a web-site that deals with devil worshippers or something, or a bunch of lawyers     but leave the religion out of the forum here. It's been great without God so far, let's keep it that way!

[ahinton]

I don't want to turn this forum into a bed of religious unrest.

Don't worry; I'm sure that you won't.

I am simply telling you what I know is true.

No, you were telling us what you believe is true; nothing wrong with that, of course, as long as it is recognised as such, no more, no less.

My first post was relevant to this topic. I spoke about the goverment and how we shouldn't trust mankind, only god, because man always fails us.

What does this have to do with the topic? Neither the British government nor God caused or encouraged the riots. If you're unwilling to "trust mankind" at all, one can only assume that you would have no trust in any man-made and man-run government; were such an attitude to be a majority one, what good would such utter and complete distrust do to and for anyone?

I would like to convert people to christianity.

Then why attempt to do so (if indeed that is what you're doing) on a forum devoted to musical matters in general and pianistic ones in particular, especially as you have not been invited to do this here?

I post helpful answers to the topic and, afterwards, tell you all some truths.

No, you give us samples of your beliefs, which is not the same thing.

If God touches only one person through what I am saying then what I am doing is a success.

By why should He do so - or indeed expect to do so - when the topic here is this month's riots in London (and, by implication, elsewhere in England)? God is not a member here so does not post on topics.

I will not try and challenge your statements as I think that will anger you even more. I am a pianist and I am preaching what I believe. Jesus was more than a "good person."

One does not have to respond to certain of your statements with anger merely because one happens to believe that their repetitions here are inappropriate in terms of contributing to thread topics; in fact, that would be a very bad idea. This forum is a place in which you can discuss issues from your standpoint as a pianist; other places exist where you can preach to your heart's content if so you wish. Jesus was a most remarkably good person and far more than that, as a number of Muslims that I know would be the first to agree; what He would think of some of the things that have been done and said in His name since his death, however, hardly bears thinking about. We can discuss J S Bach here - and perhaps also Thomas Mann - but the wisdom of maintaining as much distance as possible between "Bach" and "Mann" ought to be plainly obvious to us all.

Best,

Alistair

[perfect_pitch]

It's hard to resist Alistair... isn't it?

Now hopefully you can understand what I said, and why I said it.

Apparently most of the idiots who looted and pillaged got bugger all more than a slap on the wrist.

[ahinton]

Now hopefully you can understand what I said, and why I said it.

Speaking for myself, I already understood what you said before and why you said it; I merely observed that there were other more effective and less splenetic ways in which to say some of it.

Apparently most of the idiots who looted and pillaged got bugger all more than a slap on the wrist.

I submit that this is an over-simplified take on what has happened, especially as not all participants have yet been brought to justice (unsurprisingly, given the sheer numbers of cases to be heard); what would you have done had you been judging the culprits?

Best,

Alistair

[cjcarrington97]

I submit that this is an over-simplified take on what has happened

This, being quite true as the majority are still remanded in custody.
But I must admit, when the government in England seems to fail to please, I mean, we go in and out and back into recessions like the diversity of British summer weather. With a prime minister, that, with evidence to justify goes on about, (and this being at the time of the elections last year in May), how there wont be any riots in Britain like there were in Greece due to money issues. Look what happens here. It seems, we're always in a recession, and these rioters, rioted because of the money problems here. They haven't got anything to do. David Cameron increased university fees up to about 3000 pounds more. Where are their futures?

I feel that the reason of the August 2011 riots are to be blamed on the police, the government's obliviousness to our society, especially younger civilization, the media, and of course, the rioters. 

But don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying the rioters, but they aren't just youths, there were people in their 20s and 30s.
Even more disgustingly, a primary school teacher was caught in the riots. Arrested, and had the joy of being followed by media on court day.

Parts of Britain are broken, and if we want to have any chance in even holding the 2012 Olympics, over in Britain, we all need to work together. I see these riots as a very lethal warning.
On a brighter note, there doesn't seem to be any more riots going on in London. 

[perfect_pitch]

I merely observed that thee were other more effective and less splenetic ways in which to say some of it.

Maybe... but it made the point very, very clear   

[oxy60]

Certain assumptions must be made if one wishes to be part of any society. Destroying the property of fellow members is not the way to build a society.

If the rioters had a dispute with the government why didn't they attack the government? Why weren't they trying to storm the palace walls?

[cmg]

I'm an American and we're no strangers to violence, individual, mob, you name it.  I was hoping I'd find something in this thread to explain the London riots, but I found no more here than I do in the news coverage.  The police killing certainly seems to be the ignition point, but hardly the reason for such an outpouring of violence and looting. 

The looting, most particularly, fascinates and appalls me and seems to be the clue to the rage that has surfaced in the UK.  Over here, we have been reading about Murdoch's incredible lawlessness with hacking, the current government's close connections with Murdoch, the unravelling of the social safety net as part of the government's policy, the incredible enrichment of the upper class and the deepening impoverishment of the lower classes.  Just like in America, and Murdoch, of course, is just as powerful over here.  And just as insidious.  He's almost completely corrupted news coverage in this country.  Nothing can be believed.  Instead of insurrection, we have the completely absurd empowerment of a new fascist movement in America called the "Tea Party."  Dreadful, ignorant, racist right-wing extremists given a national forum by Murdoch with his Fox News network.  Really awful times over here, too.

Obviously, I don't condone mobs, violence or looting, but I think we may be seeing the origins of revolution.  This imbalance between wealth and poverty is astonishing in America and the UK.  Government, both here and in the UK, is complicit in stacking the decks against the working classes in favor of enriching the powerful billionaires who are proliferating now.  Unemployment is out of control in America.  Yet the rich get amazingly richer.  Over here, major corporations such as GE and Verizon have found loopholes provided by Congress that have enabled them to avoid paying billions of dollars of taxes in the past two years.  And tax cuts to the richest in America, instituted during the Bush administration, continue -- despite a loud and nasty public debate.  Our Congress is hobbled by a right-wing faction that gains power daily.  And a president who confounds everyone:  he got elected by appeailng to the Left and now backs legislation that Bush would love.  Odd and terrible.   

No one, except the rich, is pleased with the current social crisis.  I do believe the young mobsters over there are feeling enormously disenfranchised and furious.  Still, the violence is unacceptable. 

Now, back to Jesus.  He was a revolutionary, you know.  Pissed everyone off with his socialistic ideas.  But, no, he's not my savior.  Liszt might be.  Not sure yet.  But He certainly makes my life more pleasant.  As a pianist, that is.  Good luck over there, folks.  I really hate to see Britain going through this.  Truly, I do.

[cjcarrington97]

Certain assumptions must be made if one wishes to be part of any society. Destroying the property of fellow members is not the way to build a society.

If the rioters had a dispute with the government why didn't they attack the government? Why weren't they trying to storm the palace walls?

^^Well, I could ask the same thing. I feel they attacked the government quite well with this approach if I might say so myself. The Mayor of London, Prime Minister and all the other people that flutter about him, were on a holiday. They all had to cut their time short to come back and sort this mess out. I can say the only person I can believe in right now is the Mayor of London. David Cameron, as far as I'm concerned doesn't understand the sheer scale of what's going on.
I was watching the news and heard him spout "There are certain parts of our society that are broken. Then there are certain parts of that society that are sick" IT'S NOT SICK AT ALL! It's a revolt to all of the money you've taken away.
I would love to go to the Royal Music College of London, or even university. But the way our prime minister has put it, an incredibly large amount of us have had our dreams slowly obliterated on that. By the looks of things, I'd probably have to get a miracle of a scholarship if I wanted to get in right now.
It's the banks that got us in this stupid recession, and they got what? ...I think a slap on the wrist would over-exaggerating.
And then we get the prime minister saying that there are parts that are sick? ...THE BANKS ARE SICK!

No one, except the rich, is pleased with the current social crisis.  I do believe the young mobsters over there are feeling enormously disenfranchised and furious.  Still, the violence is unacceptable.

^^Well that's what you get when all the society seems to care about is money.
We need a socialist approach to these countries.

[andante_con_moto]

Don't worry; I'm sure that you won't.
No, you were telling us what you believe is true; nothing wrong with that, of course, as long as it is recognised as such, no more, no less.
What does this have to do with the topic? Neither the British government nor God caused or encouraged the riots. If you're unwilling to "trust mankind" at all, one can only assume that you would have no trust in any man-made and man-run government; were such an attitude to be a majority one, what good would such utter and complete distrust do to and for anyone?
Then why attempt to do so (if indeed that is what you're doing) on a forum devoted to musical matters in general and pianistic ones in particular, especially as you have not been invited to do this here?
No, you give us samples of your beliefs, which is not the same thing.
By why should He do so - or indeed expect to do so - when the topic here is this month's riots in London (and, by implication, elsewhere in England)? God is not a member here so does not post on topics.
One does not have to respond to certain of your statements with anger merely because one happens to believe that their repetitions here are inappropriate in terms of contributing to thread topics; in fact, that would be a very bad idea. This forum is a place in which you can discuss issues from your standpoint as a pianist; other places exist where you can preach to your heart's content if so you wish. Jesus was a most remarkably good person and far more than that, as a number of Muslims that I know would be the first to agree; what He would think of some of the things that have been done and said in His name since his death, however, hardly bears thinking about. We can discuss J S Bach here - and perhaps also Thomas Mann - but the wisdom of maintaining as much distance as possible between "Bach" and "Mann" ought to be plainly obvious to us all.

Best,

Alistair

Hey Alistair, I want to start off saying I have a great deal of respect for you and your musical knowledge. But, while I don't want to enter an argument, your responses here are extremely condescending. It's amazing how people say they respect others beliefs, but when someone suggests a certain way to handle a situation (akin to their beliefs, and thus an expression of them), the same people are offended and (almost) mortified. My take on it would be to just ignore any comments that Chopinpride posts, rather than trying to take a superior intellectual standpoint, because you cannot argue someone out of their religious beliefs. Instead, you present a rather intolerant attitude (though not as explicitly as earlier mentioned), despite expressing it in a more 'civil' manner than previous posts. I'm sorry if I sound arrogant or rude myself after all of this, it's amazing how you can talk yourself into things

[ahinton]

Hey Alistair,. I want to start off saying I have a great deal of respect for you and your musical knowledge.

You're very kind in saying so.

But, while I don't want to enter an argument, your responses here are extremely condescending.

Not at all! (but read on to see why).

It's amazing how people say they respect others beliefs, but when someone suggests a certain way to handle a situation (akin to their beliefs, and thus an expression of them), the same people are offended and (almost) mortified. My take on it would be to just ignore any comments that Chopinpride posts, rather than trying to take a superior intellectual standpoint, because you cannot argue someone out of their religious beliefs. Instead, you present a rather intolerant attitude (though not as explicitly as earlier mentioned), despite expressing it in a more 'civil' manner than previous posts. I'm sorry if I sound arrogant or rude myself after all of this, it's amazing how you can talk yourself into things

I agree in principle with your first sentence, although this is not what I do in general terms and what I've written here does not do this in specific terms either. I have no desire to argue anyone into or out of any religious beliefs and have indeed not sought to do so in my remarks, nor is what I have written intolerant for the sake of so being. My concern about chopinpride's contributions here is and has always been that the habitual inclusion of quotations from the Bible in the main body of posts is as unwelcome as it is unnecessary when they bear no contextual relevance to the topic under discussion and are addressed to all members who might want to follow that discussion but who may not be Christians or indeed believers in God; no useful purpose can be served by such inclusion and it does neither the poster nor those about whom he writes any favours. I have endeavoured to suggest that, if this poster must make the quotation concerned habitually as the kind of sign-off as which he appears to intend it, it be confined to its correect position as a sign-off rather than presented as though an integral part of a response to the thread topic - but, as we can all see, to no avail.

Best,

Alistair

[perfect_pitch]

The thing that I find curious, is that all of a sudden Chopinspride spouts his answers, with the attachment of the same bloody bible quote... then 2 1/2 weeks ago - stops posting completely...

However - he's been logged into this site every day as far as I can gather and been online.

[andante_con_moto]

I agree in principle with your first sentence, although this is not what I do in general terms and what I've written here does not do this in specific terms either.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you do this in general terms , just in that particular response. I thought there was an underlying intolerance, even though I agree that it certainly did not seem intentional or hateful.

My concern about chopinpride's contributions here is and has always been that the habitual inclusion of quotations from the Bible in the main body of posts is as unwelcome as it is unnecessary when they bear no contextual relevance to the topic under discussion and are addressed to all members who might want to follow that discussion but who may not be Christians or indeed believers in God

Is the difference of where the poster decides to post his quotes worth a rather hateful argument though (I'm not implying you were in your post though) or worth any argument for that matter? Perhaps his intention was to gain attention? Surely it is easy enough to just ignore it? Unless he started posting irrelevant responses all together (in which the responses should be moderated)... He seems to think by including the quotes in his main post body it is simply a way to emphasise his signature, although I personally don't see how it really does that, that is, unless people keep pointing it out  .

no useful purpose can be served by such inclusion and it does neither the poster nor those about whom he writes any favours.

Okay I see what you're saying here, however, from the posters point of view, he believes he can convert people by posting the text beneath his posts, thus he believes there is a purpose behind its posting (his belief). So I disagree with the first point (although it obviously serves no useful purpose from your perspective which is understandable). However, I don't believe the poster does his cause any good by firing up people who are offended by continual posting of bible quotes. I certainly doubt that is going to convert anyone...Saying that you never know...

[ahinton]

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you do this in general terms , just in that particular response. I thought there was an underlying intolerance, even though I agree that it certainly did not seem intentional or hateful.

There's no need to apologise! You are correct in that there is no intolerance, still less hatred, in what I wrote.

Is the difference of where the poster decides to post his quotes worth a rather hateful argument though (I'm not implying you were in your post though) or worth any argument for that matter?

No - but then I'm not arguing about it but pointing out that persistent repetition of a phrase which has no relevance to the thread topic is at best pointeless and at worst irritating.

Perhaps his intention was to gain attention? Surely it is easy enough to just ignore it?

As I'm not the only one to take chopinspride to task over this and for similar reasons, it is clear that, whatever his intention, he's overstepping the mark for members here who wish to enter into a discussion.

Unless he started posting irrelevant responses all together (in which the responses should be moderated)... He seems to think by including the quotes in his main post body it is simply a way to emphasise his signature, although I personally don't see how it really does that, that is, unless people keep pointing it out  .

But that's just it - they do!

Okay I see what you're saying here, however, from the posters point of view, he believes he can convert people by posting the text beneath his posts, thus he believes there is a purpose behind its posting (his belief). So I disagree with the first point (although it obviously serves no useful purpose from your perspective which is understandable). However, I don't believe the poster does his cause any good by firing up people who are offended by continual posting of bible quotes. I certainly doubt that is going to convert anyone...Saying that you never know...

When I wrote "useful purpose" I meant useful to the discussion concerned; constant repetition of a phrase which has no bearing on the discussion at hand clearly falls short of serving the useful purpose of the thread, which is to discuss the topic and not to "convert" anyone to anything that is entirely distinct from and irrelevant to its topic.

For the avoidance of doubt, what I'm referring to here is not specifically about quoting from the Bible (which is fine in principle as long as the quote bears some relation to the discussion in which is is placed) but repetitious posting of any material that is not germane to the discussion; for example, I am the director of The Sorabji Archive (as many members here know) and if I continually quoted from Sorabji in every post regardless of the relevance of such quotation I would be transgressing in just the same way as chopinspride did and, no doubt, irritate quite a few members by so doing.

I hope that this makes the position clearer.

Best,

Alistair