Mark Hambourg shows you how to do thirds

[keyboardclass]

Here's Mark Hambourg:

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's Mark Hambourg:

Could you provide a bit more context from what he is talking about? For a start, if he's advising it on every third then that sounds most unusual. Would anyone perform the Chopin 3rds Etude with zero legato in the lower voice? Certainly not. I've never heard of anyone making willful separations where legato is perfectly possible. But would they PRACTISE it that way as an exercise in voicing the top? Yes, very much so.

Also, it gives no explanation of what fingering might allow the upper voice to be played with full legato while the lower voice is not. And he says "worked on"- not "performed". I use similar practise methods for voicing and feeling physically connected to a melody line myself- including playing the triplets staccato in the moonlight first movement. It's this staccato that disappears when carried into performance- but the sense of being physically more connected to the upper line than the lower carries through. It appears that he may very well be talking of a similar principle.

If we are to make sense of this, we're going to need to know the context that this was written in. I am even inclined to suspect that you may have deliberately omitted to include important information, in a bid to create a conveniently misleading impression. This does not in any way strike me as supporting your theory that anything goes if one voice is legato. Congratulations for your attempt to mask the context, but there's enough on display to make me 99% sure this is a voicing exercise to help distinguish the upper line.

[keyboardclass]

Would anyone perform the Chopin 3rds Etude with zero legato in the lower voice?

'This method is, of course, only for slow practice; The action will disappear in fast tempi'.  I suggest you read it for yourself since you have so many questions.

[nyiregyhazi]

'This method is, of course, only for slow practice; The action will disappear in fast tempi'.  I suggest you read it for yourself since you have so many questions.

The question is- WHAT will disappear? It would appear that he is referring to the gap in the lower voice disappearing- seeing as nobody plays whole runs of thirds in a way that involves deliberately avoiding legato entirely outside of the top voice. However, as presented this is very unclear. Based on what said in the thread you originally posted this in, it appears that you were seeking to imply a rather different meaning.

[keyboardclass]

Based on what said in the thread you originally posted this in, it appears that you were seeking to imply a rather different meaning.

And you'd know that would you?  Why don't you stop putting words/implications in my mouth?

[keyboardclass]

Here's Kendall Taylor: 'When playing double-thirds legato it is not possible to join both notes of the thirds smoothly when connecting the finger groups, nor when playing the thumb on two consecutive notes.  The illusion of legato must be created by securing the smoothest possible progression between the upper notes of the R.H. when rising and the lower notes ofthe L.H. when falling;...' Principles of Piano Technique ad Interpretation.

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's Kendall Taylor: 'When playing double-thirds legato it is not possible to join both notes of the thirds smoothly when connecting the finger groups, nor when playing the thumb on two consecutive notes.  The illusion of legato must be created by securing the smoothest possible progression between the upper notes of the R.H. when rising and the lower notes ofthe L.H. when falling;...' Principles of Piano Technique ad Interpretation.

You state that as if it runs in contradiction to the consensus that everyone who posted in the thirds thread reached? Do you feel it contradicts what anyone said? If so, I suggest you reread the posts. Not a single person has disagreed with what is stated there and many already made the same point.

What everybody agreed was that legato in the upper voice does not automatically guarantee a legato illusion (and particularly not in your film). The premise is correct- but the point is that it does not tell the whole story. Again, I'm inclined to wonder what he wrote in the (...). Regardless, legato is a sound that is either heard or not heard. It is not the result of satisfying a checklist and no number of sources or citations (quoted out of context) will change massively obvious gaps into inaudible gaps.  Understanding the  premise of joining one voice is the very beginning of mastering legato thirds- not the finished product.

You can repeat the premise for legato illusion as many times as you like. Nobody disagreed with it. However, if you think that amounts to 100% of what is required, you are mistaken. If a magician is seen pulling the card out of his sleeve, it's no use for him to cite Ali Bongo's instructions and say that he followed them correctly- just as it's no use to play extremely non-legato sounding thirds and cite a "correct" fingering or methodology.

[sucom]

Here's Kendall Taylor: 'When playing double-thirds legato it is not possible to join both notes of the thirds smoothly when connecting the finger groups, nor when playing the thumb on two consecutive notes.  The illusion of legato must be created by securing the smoothest possible progression between the upper notes of the R.H. when rising and the lower notes ofthe L.H. when falling;...' Principles of Piano Technique ad Interpretation.

I like this quote by Kendall Taylor and agree with it to a certain extent.  What I would 'add' to it, however, is that the notes which are impossible to link together perfectly should be practised to ensure any gaps are as minutely small as possible.  One should not rely 'totally' on the legato of the upper voice ascending or the lower voice descending and I don't think this is what he is advocating. 

I was quite surprised to read the first quote by Mark Hambourg.  Lifting each finger of the lower voice before moving on is not the way I was taught to play legato.  The exercise itself, though, is a very useful one for listening to and perfecting the legato of the top voice.  One way to really listen acutely to the legato of the top voice is to make the lower voice particularly staccato.  Once this has been achieved, however, the effort should focus on making ALL the notes as legato as possible in order to reduce any gaps caused by physical limitation and the more this is practised, the better it becomes.

[keyboardclass]

I was quite surprised to read the first quote by Mark Hambourg.  Lifting each finger of the lower voice before moving on is not the way I was taught to play legato.  The exercise itself, though, is a very useful one for listening to and perfecting the legato of the top voice.

And that I would say is the point.  Yes, it's only an exercise but one well worth considering - more about the ears than the fingers.

[nyiregyhazi]

And that I would say is the point.  Yes, it's only an exercise but one well worth considering - more about the ears than the fingers.

Not at all. If anything the reverse- which can be objectively illustrated as being the case:

If it primarily were an exercise for the ear, it follows that the classic exercise of listening to the results when using two hands would be comparably effective. Thanks to the greater ease of voicing, using two hands is a valuable exercise for training the ear to perceive the sound of exaggerated voicing towards one line. However, it's pretty much useless for training the physical nuts and bolts of actually voicing when you go back to one hand. It only accustoms the mind to what the intended result sounds like.

Conversely, this exercise specifically trains the physical sensation of being more "connected" to a particular voice. While it trains the ear too, above all it trains the physical means of putting intentions of voicing into practise. It also encourages perception of the stabilisation that enables physical legato when passing over the 5th. One of the things about playing one note staccato is that the brief "shock" of sounding and releasing it tests the quality of stabilisation on the remaining finger far more than when you do not release. This is why this seemingly bizarre exercise is massively effective for lyrical melodies such as Chopin's op. 10 no.3. While it aids what a pianist is capable of musically, the training is very much physical. If you're going about it the right way, you should be feeling an enormous feeling of physical stability and security (without any tightness or pressure coming from the arm) in the legato line. This is also what translates to the ability to play thirds quickly.

[keyboardclass]

Not turning this thread into a load of bilge posters have to wade through, so I'll just ignore the last post.