relaxation paradox

[keyboardclass]

It's an honest assessment-

Like hell it is - it's you trying to start a flame war.

[nyiregyhazi]

Like hell it is - it's you trying to start a flame war.

Actually, I was making a number of significant points about piano technique.

Does this post read like a call to arms or like an analysis of technical necessities?

It's an honest assessment- followed by an objective illustration of the fact that lateral activity is the only means of supporting the arm's weight efficiently. Gravity draws the elbow in towards the torso unless balanced with an outward activity. Pianists ignore this fact at their peril- especially if they want to keep the arm light. Misunderstanding the requirement and purpose of shoulder activity (rather than matching it to the specific way in which unbalanced gravity would affect the arm) can only lead to unnecessary efforts. If you do not perceive the purpose of activity or the direction in which it needs to be applied, the odds that the body will balance effectively are minimal.

There are only three realistic options- relax the shoulders enough for the elbows to remain permanently slumped against the torso, tighten them into immobility against gravity or match unwanted effects of gravity with precise and sensitive application of outward muscular activity, to balance. To pretend otherwise is just to relinquish the opportunity to choose between them.

Off-topic argument is something I have zero interest in, which is why I will have nothing more to add (beyond this post) unless you have anything to say about either the subject or the points I made regarding it.

[keyboardclass]

Actually, I was making a number of significant points about piano technique.

In which case you could have left your nasty personal comments out.  No, it's a flame war.

[nyiregyhazi]

I made a number of interesting discoveries recently, about just how widely most pianists misunderstand the nature of gravity and relaxation. Try standing and holding your arms out as if to play, then abruptly relaxing. Can you feel the path of elbow and notice that activities that had been keeping it in place- before it slumps inwards? Then go to a piano and do the same, sliding off the keys. I realised that virtually anyone demonstrates this exercise, keeps their palm remaining face down as they slide off. I think that shows a major lack  of awareness of tensions in the shoulder. If you pay attention to what happens in the truest of relaxation, there should be a notable feeling of the forearm turning outwards (so the fifth angles downwards) as you slide back and of the elbow collapsing inwards against the torso. All kinds of movements occur within 3 dimensions. If you start with the hand in different regions of the keyboard, there are many different paths that result from relaxation.

While a lot of people encourage the feeling of how the hand might fall straight through the keys, I think that awareness of what gravity does elsewhere tends to be very poor (to a large extent probably even BECAUSE the pianist is trying to angle everything so the hand drops straight down- where complete release largely pulls it backwards from the keys). When you spend some time perceiving what the true relaxation of the whole arm and shoulder entails, it's far easier to put the balancing muscular activities in efficiently. When you have a sense of exactly what you are matching muscular actions to (so balance only just occurs at all), there is far less effort than when you just thinking about keeping things still in a certain position. Typically, pianists are so focussed on positions that there is minimal awareness how wastefully we maintain it. The elbow is probably the most severe case of all.

[lostinidlewonder]

I made a number of interesting discoveries recently, about just how widely most pianists misunderstand the nature of gravity and relaxation.

Delusions of grandeur? Nice one.

So not to bump this now pointless thread any further and in response to below. If you have made "discoveries" which have revealed to you this concept of gravity and relaxation that pianists "widely misunderstand" Kudos to you! You are amazing! I just have to stop reading there and then. Your first sentence was such a sweeping statement that said it all and everything that followed was belittled by it. Unfortunately, what followed did not share with us your discoveries and is just merely generalized ranting.

No matter how specific you are speaking about the body all we have to do is look at how you use what you are saying in context of actual music (which you do zero of), you fail to give us any practical insight by providing us with numerous pieces that we can test any specific movements you are trying to explain. If you fail to do this everything you say is merely general talk which can mean anything and none of us have any idea how your ideas should be applied to the real world when we play actual pieces. So provide exact pieces and exact bars that you want to discuss your idea.

[nyiregyhazi]

Delusions of grandeur? Nice one.

That was not a judgemental comment and neither does it come from beliefs of grandeur. If you'd like to re-read my post you'll see that I was stating realisations of quite how poorly I had understood gravity. Exposing personal failure is your idea of grandeur?

Most pianists neither play to anything approaching concert standard or optimal muscular freedom. Neither have many of them ever thought about specifically what gravity actually does to a relaxed arm. Ask 99% of pianists and they'll tell you that it goes down- without the slightest mention of countless other notable effects. Standard gravity teaching typically perpetuates the myth that gravity causes the hand to exert a large downward pressure against the keys- which it does not, unless the hand it dropped from a great height and steered by countless acts that do not constitute relaxation. A great deal can be learned by stopping to understand what efforts are being used to balance gravity's unwanted effects- in order to deploy these efforts more efficiently and with less tension. I've realised that none of the relaxation exercises I have ever encountered deal with all of the efforts are maintained to excess by most players (excepting an elite, who are of course not included under the term "most pianists"). Virtually all just encourage the down aspect- ignoring other aspects.

Do you have anything to contribute other than off-topic heckling? Any thoughts relating to piano playing?

[keyboardclass]

I stopped reading past the first sentence years ago.  Delusional certainly fits the bill.

[nyiregyhazi]

I stopped reading past the first sentence years ago.  Delusional certainly fits the bill.

To say that most pianists don't understand gravity should hardly be controversial. Do you know how many pianists there are in the world and how small the percentage who play to anything approaching concert level is? If you believe that all pianists have flawless understanding of gravity, then believe away. I've only just realised quite how poor my own understanding was- after years of playing.

What was that about someone "trying to start a flame war"? Either make a point about the subject matter or stop polluting with content-free attempts to insult me. I have no doubt that you'll be replying in the exact same vein, but don't expect a response. I'm not interested, sorry.

[nyiregyhazi]

I just have to stop reading there and then. Your first sentence was such a sweeping statement that said it all and everything that followed was belittled by it. Unfortunately, what followed did not share with us your discoveries and is just merely generalized ranting.

The fact that the fullest relaxation of the arm causes the hand to turn out to the side and the elbow to be drawn inwards against the torso is "generalised"? The fact that even extreme relaxation demonstrations do not reference or draw attention to these things (at least none that I am aware of) shows just how widely the nature of gravity is misunderstood. If you want to be dismissive, please have the courtesy to write a fresh post (rather than sneak it into an old one). Better still, why not make some specific points about the subject matter- rather than a wholly "generalised" dismissal?

[keyboardclass]

The fact that even extreme relaxation demonstrations do not reference or draw attention to these things (at least none that I am aware of)

Then maybe you should read your Matthay.  Read more, write less!

[nyiregyhazi]

Then maybe you should read your Matthay.  Read more, write less!

I was aware of the fact that the hand naturally wants to slant outwards.  What I had not realised was the extent to which this naturally happens, when performing the truest of relaxation exercises. When the shoulder absolutely releases and allows the elbow to come freely back inwards to the torso, it becomes EXTREMELY pronounced. I have never seen this being encouraged in traditional flopping off the piano exercises. I don't believe that the shoulder is typically released. Standard "relaxation" exercises encourage maintaining the alignment- not perception of 100% relaxation. If Matthay mentions these specific issues in the old sliding off the keys exercises, could you point me to it?

Noticing the sheer extent to which the hand slants upon release reveals both the importance of muscular activity to open out space in the armpit and straighten the hand, simply to play- but also how important it is not to get locked into the activity without awareness of its purpose. I think it's extremely typical for pianists to get stuck into this position.

[keyboardclass]

You're not listening are you.

[pianoplayjl]

What basis do you have for your evidence (apart from observations of pianists)? I've tried some stuff you posted but I don't understand what you said. Try further abbreviating your posts so that it makes more sense.

JL

[nyiregyhazi]

You're not listening are you.

If you have nothing to say about the subject or issues raised, there's nothing for me to listen to. However, if Matthay indeed wrote about the specific issue I have raised I'd be interested in a source- so I can explore what he had to say further.

[nyiregyhazi]

What basis do you have for your evidence (apart from observations of pianists)? I've tried some stuff you posted but I don't understand what you said. Try further abbreviating your posts so that it makes more sense.

JL

I've observed plenty of pianists, included my students and others. Most amateurs lock countless joints against the action of gravity, with needlessly large efforts that they cannot perceive. In particular though, I've never personally encountered relaxation exercises that illustrate or raise awareness of the specific efforts I'm referring to. I've only seen ones that are supposed to use gravity to create downward pressure- not ones that reveal the fine details of what gravity does, when you genuinely relax without preconceptions. Just do the exercise I suggested and see if you notice your elbow coming in when you release- or whether you have a tendency to keep holding it to the outside, with muscular effort. Have you ever noticed the path your arm naturally moves in, upon relaxing it? Somehow standard gravity explanations seem to have indoctrinated us all to believe that gravity is supposed to move things exactly downwards- when it's far more useful to observe the real effects, without intent or bias.

[pianoplayjl]

In particular though, I've never personally encountered relaxation exercises that illustrate or raise awareness of the specific efforts I'm referring to.

Then perhaps you can make up a few and I'm sure there is more than 1 way.

Just do the exercise I suggested and see if you notice your elbow coming in when you release- or whether you have a tendency to keep holding it to the outside, with muscular effort. Have you ever noticed the path your arm naturally moves in, upon relaxing it? Somehow standard gravity explanations seem to have indoctrinated us all to believe that gravity is supposed to move things exactly downwards- when it's far more useful to observe the real effects, without intent or bias.

I'll try that tomorrow but so far I'm believing you.

JL

[nyiregyhazi]

Then perhaps you can make up a few and I'm sure there is more than 1 way.

Sure, that's what I'm doing. I put an exercise along these lines in a blog post before:

 https://pianoscience.blogspot.com/2011/04/hunched-shoulders-why-do-they-really.html

but I've been experimenting with various new related exercises to be done at the piano. While there's always more than one way, I'm not aware of any conventional teaching method that specifically raises the major issue of how to develop an efficient means of balancing the arm. No doubt there are many good teachers who give a bit of physical prodding, but I don't think this issue is typically dealt with in any direct fashion. 

[keyboardclass]

However, if Matthay indeed wrote about the specific issue I have raised I'd be interested in a source- so I can explore what he had to say further.

That's rich coming from somene whose only source is the complete works of Isaac Newton and "I am the source!".  Do your own reading, I've done mine.

[nyiregyhazi]

That's rich coming from somene whose only source is the complete works of Isaac Newton and "I am the source!".  Do your own reading, I've done mine.

I've never said go and read the complete Newton. I have provided applications of accepted mechanics and told you that if you insist on a source (for that which is universally accepted), you can look to the unanimous consensus of EVERY textbook on basics of classical mechanics that is available. Just as there is no specific "source"  for the fact that 2+5+7=14 (beyond basic premises of maths), there is no source for specific applications of mechanics (beyond accepted first principles). Anyone disputing a premise must falsify it from first principles. To call for a "source" for applied logic is simply to expose ignorance of how logic operates.

Conversely, you have neither made any point of your own, nor directed me to where I might find one from Matthay. What is the value in making a vague allusion to an undisclosed point that somebody made in an undisclosed work? Does that contribute anything regarding the subject of relaxation?

If you feel you have something to contribute, please do so. I would be interested to read the passages that you feel are relevant. However, if you're only interested in school-yard games, I'm afraid that I'm not interested.

[keyboardclass]

I'll say it again - I'm not about to do your reading for you.  You'll just have to live in that delusional world of make-it-up-as-you-go-along as you can't be bothered to learn from past masters of piano pedagogy.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'll say it again - I'm not about to do your reading for you.  

Then please stop polluting this thread. It is about relaxation. If you have nothing to offer (either about my own points or about what Matthay said on the issue) why are you posting? Not a single one of your recent posts has been pertinent to any topical issues. Telling me to read undisclosed passages of Matthay is not how discussion works. If there's something you wish to bring into the discussion, please either do so or depart from the discussion.

[keyboardclass]

If there's anything polluting this thread it's your delusional and inflammatory remarks about my playing.  Do us all a favour and restrict them to your sorry blog.

[nyiregyhazi]

If there's anything polluting this thread it's your delutional and imflamatory remarks about my playing.  Do us all a favour and restrict them to your sorry blog.

I mentioned your playing a long time ago (AS A PASSING DETAIL MADE IN REFERENCE TO THE SUBJECT!!!) and have not done so since. It is of little interest to me, compared to the subject of piano technique- which has been the topic of various posts that I have since been "polluting" this thread with. Anyway, I'm not providing any further fuel for this nonsense. You have not made a single on-topic post to this thread for days and I am not going to inspire any further this irrelevance or be distracted any further. I suggest that you set-up a separate thread in which to voice your dislike for me. This thread is about relaxation- not about personal grievances. If you're not willing to respond to my attempt to bring you to the topic, by requesting the passages you alluded to, we have nothing to discuss.

[keyboardclass]

I mentioned your playing a long time ago (AS A PASSING DETAIL MADE IN REFERENCE TO THE SUBJECT!!!)

Yeh well, one person's 'PASSING DETAIL' is another person's inflammatory insult Bozo!

[drazh]

Hi
After all I concluded
Total relaxation is impossible.
What is good hand position?
Elbow . 90 degrees
So arm biceps is contracted
Writs . 0  degrees
So forearm extensors are contracted
Fingers semiflexed .true relaxation
I'm not sure about shoulder
Thanks

[keyboardclass]

That sounds great though I think you mean wrists 180 degrees so wrist extensors contracted (that's only when they're not supported by the keyboard though).

[drazh]

Dear keyboardclass
You are right about wrist .I mean 180 degree .
What about shoulder?
Thanks

[keyboardclass]

Unless you're doing big, big chords the shoulders are at rest.   The lower abdominals do quite a bit though.  Also, muscles down the side of your torso are active stabilizing you - when I play a stiff action for some time an ache will appear there.