Sostenudo Pedal in Debussy

[gvans]

I'm working up a Debussy suite, Estampes, for a concert. I noticed for the first time my Durand & Fils edition has the pedal marking Ped 2 (I assume the sosenuto, or middle pedal) for the bass pedal point at the opening of Pagodes. I've always played it una corda and using the sustain pedal. I've been experimenting with the sostenuto pedal--of course, it does makes for a clearer sound and yet still gives the bass pedal point. Frankly, though, I like it better the old way. I'm curious--any of you out there play this, and use the middle pedal? Thoughts on the sostenuto pedal in general? I find it rather tricky to use.

[chrisbutch]

There are other passages in Debussy where the sostenuto pedal seems to be implied. The one that immediately comes to mind is the opening of the first movement of the Pour le Piano suite, where there are pages of rapid tenor figuration over a long-sustained pedal bass, near-impossible to play as written without using the sostenuto.

[rachfan]

Hi gvans,

In Debussy's "La Cathedrale Engloutie" page 3 at the Sonore sans durete, the contra-bass pedal points on C are customarily taken with the sostenuto pedal.  In Estampes, I've recorded "La Soiree dans Granade" but I have not yet played "Pagodes".

David

[gvans]

Hi David,
Do you use the sostenuto pedal for the pedal point bass C# at the opening of La Soiree dans Grenade? Or use the una corda pedal, with the sustain?

On Pagodes, I like to keep the rhythm, to keep that gamelan dance feeling. Debussy was highly influenced by Indonesian gamelan at the 1900 Paris World Exhibition.  If you aren't careful, though, and don't delay the sostenuto pedal ever so slightly, you can get treble notes mucking up the sound.

Years ago I studied Pagodes with a prof at the U. of Wisconsin, an expert on Debussy. He said just to use the sustain pedal wherever a phrase/slur mark occurred. Seems odd, but worked, and works, quite well.

Glenn

[rachfan]

Hi gvans,

I open "La Soiree" with the soft and damper pedals.  My rationale is that everything there is harmonic within the C# tonal center.  By contrast, in "La Cathedrale" in the section known as the apparition of the cathedral, there are loud passing and neighboring chords.  So there the sostenuto preserves the tonality of the pedal points at all times, while the damper pedal is changed for each neighboring chord in the hands to ensure clarity--no dissonance--as those chords progress.  If you'd like, you can hear how I do "La Soiree" here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,34553.0.html

David

[mousekowski]

And there's an opportunity to use the sostenuto pedal in Debussy's second Arabesque; bars 42 and 43.

[gvans]

This is a bit off-topic (should be Sostenuto Pedal in Brahms)...but here goes:

I found another place to try the sostenuto pedal: in the Brahms D minor piano/violin sonata, in the third mov't, in the development section. There are two Bb pedal point with arpeggios above them; the sostenuto worked OK at solo practice, but when I tried it at a rehearsal, my foot missed and I lost the bass note. There's just not enough time to set it right. When we performed the piece in public a few days ago, I didn't have the huevos to use it. Maybe with more practice.

[rachfan]

Hi gvans,

It's always good to be on the lookout for instances where the sostenuto pedal might be beneficial.  When I was doing many of the Rachmaninoff Preludes, I used it there--Op. 3, No. 2 and Op. 32, No. 1 come to mind.  One does have to experiment though to make sure that the imagined sound from looking at the score is realized in the playing when actually applying the sostenuto.  There have been a few instances after trials that I opted not to use it, as I found the damper pedal to be the better choice overall.

David

[jmanpno]

Several things to consider here:

One:  The meaning of Ped 2.   It is shorthand for "les deux pedal", the two pedals.
Two:  French pianos in Debussy and Ravel's day did not, and in many cases still do not have a sostenuto pedal. 
Three:  Therefore the indication is to use the two pedals. 

Four:  Here are some potential reactions I'm sure some of you are having by now:

1) But surely Debussy would have used the sostenuto if he had access to it.
2) It get's muddy without it.
3) The results are better with it.

Nonsense on all accounts....

Five:  There is SO much that you can do with your fingers to clarify the lines.  Balance, color, shaping, tone... these all contribute so much more to the musical effect than the use of this middle pedal.  Learn how to control these elements and you'll be worlds ahead of the game.

Six:  The pedaling in Debussy (almost) always follows the notation!  The notation is the guide and source of truth.