Pianists that overpractise?

[sevencircles]

Sometimes it seems like some pianists would play better if they practised less.

Lisitsa and Kissin seems to be victims of overpractice. Lisitsa stated pretty recently that she practiced 12-14 hours a day.

Michelangeli was also a pianist that overpracticed, it seems like his obsession with perfection affected the quality of his recordings in a negative way sometimes.

Underpractice on the other hand is even worse of course.

Cortot, Schnabel, the late Josef Hofmann and maybe even Artur Rubinstein are examples of pianists that propably would have played better if they practiced more.

[pianoplayjl]

Richter seems to be overpractising on days before concerts, up to I think 12? hours? I think he should only be going through a run through. Rachmaninoff practiced up to 14 hours a day for some time just to get it up to scratch with Hoffman who had small hands but a brilliant technique.

on another note:Hamelin, I read in another thread seemed to focus more on technique in music but still his performances are great. I think if he practices more then there will be more musicality in his music. Horowtiz said he didn't practice more than 3 hours a day. I think he could have expanded his repertoire and learnt more pieces if he practiced abit more.

JL

[49410enrique]

the issue of 'over practicing' is not a new one. scriabin started out as a pianist and finished as a composer (interesting his piano teacher taneyev had another pupil at the same time who started out composing primarily and would finish more as a pianist, we know him as rachmaninoff, but i digress...)

couple exceprts show what can happen with too much (or incorrect or both) practice,

During his Conservatory years, a hand injury, suffered supposedly while over-practicing the “Don Juan Fantasy” by Franz Liszt and “Islamiya” by Miliy Balakirev forced Scriabin to turn to composition. Two of the most famous left handed pieces in the piano repertoire, the Nocturne and Prelude Op. 9 were a direct result of this, and later, also the 1st Piano Sonata. Although he eventually returned to the concert stage, his right hand was never quite the same and this may explain why in so many of his compositions the left hand is technically the equal to (and often surpasses) the right hand."

..."Scriabin wrote his first numbered sonata at the age of 20. Excessive practice at the keyboard left him with an injury and a bad prognosis; he saw it as "the first serious failure in my life" and as the shattering of "the goal so highly desired: fame, glory." In his gloomy state of mind, the First Sonata represented a "grumbling against fate and against God."

[sevencircles]

on another note:Hamelin, I read in another thread seemed to focus more on technique in music but still his performances are great. I think if he practices more then there will be more musicality in his music. Horowtiz said he didn't practice more than 3 hours a day. I think he could have expanded his repertoire and learnt more pieces if he practiced abit more.

I agree but Hamelin, extremely talented but propably too focuced on technique in general. He propably belongs to the underpractice category.

Are you sure that Horowitz didn´t practice more? I heard he practiced a lot even when he was old, he learned the Scriabin Sonatas in his seventies if I am not entirely wrong.

[cmg]

I rather disagree with the notion that one can "overpractice."  If you mean mindless practicing that includes repetitions that are disengaged from the conscious examination of technical, musical or memorization issues, then the worst sin committed is an enormous waste of time.

If you mean mindless repetitions of very difficult passages in which you are not aware of locking tension into your hands and body, thus causing injuries, then that is not "overpracticing," but practicing in a destructive way. 

Uncountable hours spent at the keyboard, as Kissin and others do and have done, with complete attention devoted to the task at hand, shouldn't be regarded as a problem.  Many great artists reach for perfection, such as Michelangeli, because of the mastery and refinement of their art at an early age.  You can hardly expect them to practice less when they can still hear faults in their playing that you and I may never detect.  It's the price of their genius. 

I mean, you wouldn't have expected Beethoven or Chopin to "under-compose," would you?  To let a piece go when they felt it was just "good enough?"  The striving to improve and perfect is innate in art.     

[nyiregyhazi]

I rather disagree with the notion that one can "overpractice."  If you mean mindless practicing that includes repetitions that are disengaged from the conscious examination of technical, musical or memorization issues, then the worst sin committed is an enormous waste of time.   

So as long as you concentrate, practising 24 hours per day is fine?

[sevencircles]

I rather disagree with the notion that one can "overpractice."  If you mean mindless practicing that includes repetitions that are disengaged from the conscious examination of technical, musical or memorization issues, then the worst sin committed is an enormous waste of time.

If you mean mindless repetitions of very difficult passages in which you are not aware of locking tension into your hands and body, thus causing injuries, then that is not "overpracticing," but practicing in a destructive way. 

Uncountable hours spent at the keyboard, as Kissin and others do and have done, with complete attention devoted to the task at hand, shouldn't be regarded as a problem.  Many great artists reach for perfection, such as Michelangeli, because of the mastery and refinement of their art at an early age.  You can hardly expect them to practice less when they can still hear faults in their playing that you and I may never detect.  It's the price of their genius. 

I mean, you wouldn't have expected Beethoven or Chopin to "under-compose," would you?  To let a piece go when they felt it was just "good enough?"  The striving to improve and perfect is innate in art.     

Most people get really mentally and physically tired when they practise 12 hours a day (for some people even 6 hours a day is too much)

When it´s time to record or perform you don´t really have the hunger and energy too play your best since you are already a bit bored by the piece.

12 hours a day during a longer time period won´t make most people better pianists maybe not even technically better.

Michelangeli played really noteperfect and in general musically interesting but his interpretations were often a bit boring compared to for instance Horowitz.

[pianoplayjl]

There was also Byron Janis who I think overpracticed a bit and as a result had hand surgery to rehabilitate his hands or something like that.

JL

[cmg]

There was also Byron Janis who I think overpracticed a bit and as a result had hand surgery to rehabilitate his hands or something like that.

JL

 

According to Earl Wild (who routinely practiced 8 to 10 hours a day all his life), pianists such as Janis, Fleischer and Graffman all used fingerings that relied too heavily in extended octave passages on the fourth finger.  Wild, a great virtuoso and master teacher, maintained that overuse of the fourth finger in octave passages (even on black keys) is a certain recipe for injuries as time passes, not over-practicing.  He cited these pianists as examples since he knew their playing very well and observed their practice and performance habits time and again.

[carlnmtka]

Sometimes I think it would be better if pianists practised less. ...
Cortot, Schnabel, (et al) ... are examples of pianists that propably would have played better if they practiced more.

Chopin didn't believe in practising everyday. Cortot followed his example, but included stretching in his regime and keyboard exercises to assist with various techniques helpful in particular pieces. Many of today's artists are disciples of his methods, e.g. Murray Perahia.
As for Cortot, who "would have played better had (he) practiced more," I am curious as to which of his recordings you can cite? Having restored many, I've found that what I thought were his smudges, was just noise. Rubinstein's overcited comment refers to hearing Cortot past his prime.

[nyiregyhazi]

There was also Byron Janis who I think overpracticed a bit and as a result had hand surgery to rehabilitate his hands or something like that.

JL

No. There are two things. He severed a nerve in a childhood accident and later developed arthritis (which can develop independently of playing piano at all). There's really not much worth in speculating about overpractise, without any trace of evidence that it was the cause.

[pianoplayjl]

No. There are two things. He severed a nerve in a childhood accident and later developed arthritis (which can develop independently of playing piano at all). There's really not much worth in speculating about overpractise, without any trace of evidence that it was the cause.

Yes your info is correct although it is possible that the athritis was exacerbated by his piano playing and overpractice, am I right? Although not all pianists who overpractice developed athritis.

JL

[sevencircles]

Chopin didn't believe in practising everyday. Cortot followed his example, but included stretching in his regime and keyboard exercises to assist with various techniques helpful in particular pieces. Many of today's artists are disciples of his methods, e.g. Murray Perahia.
As for Cortot, who "would have played better had (he) practiced more," I am curious as to which of his recordings you can cite? Having restored many, I've found that what I thought were his smudges, was just noise. Rubinstein's overcited comment refers to hearing Cortot past his prime.

Maybe it´s just the recording quality, he simply sounded more sloppy then he was.

Not practising every day might work fine if you have a limited repertoire like Michelangeli had. Having a large repertoire of virtuosoworks would demand daily practice unless you  are some kind of John Ogdon.

[jesc]

I hope to find generally accepted literature/research on this.

IIRC Hoffman wrote about his routine in practicing on the piano as 1 hour practice followed by 1 hour break (including mental break, "don't think about anything piano") and so forth. IIRC (again lol) he also wrote about not having a specific schedule because the regularity will destroy spontaneity (or something relating to on the spot inspirations).

I'm well aware that each pianist follow a unique effective routine/method that suits their needs. In other words what works for a "legendary" pianist is not necessarily for everyone.

But I have bad experiences with over practicing. Personally, I believe there is a peak at practicing where one is potentially at his best. Then, when the practice becomes too much to the point that the muscle doesn't have time to rest/repair it goes downhill from there.

Do the russians have a research tucked in somewhere? I remember that Russia researched the effect of chess on the mind of a player. IIRC the research pointed out that too much chess (practice/playing) can damage the brain. Therefore chess players are supposed to carefully regulate their training/playing. Surely, they might have something about pianists also.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes your info is correct although it is possible that the athritis was exacerbated by his piano playing and overpractice, am I right? Although not all pianists who overpractice developed athritis.

JL

Yes, this could have happened. My point is that if you leap to the assumption that a given pianist probably overpractised (based on no evidence other than an ailment) and use that as evidence for the dangers of overpractise, you are using circular logic. For all we know Janis may have be a fairly modest practiser. Also, I know pianists who have been injured that didn't practise much at all. From watching Janis on films, he was rather stiff and this technical issue may have contributed to what was probably also a physical predisposition to arthritis. However, the amount of time spent is a whole other issue.

[keyboardkat]

 

According to Earl Wild (who routinely practiced 8 to 10 hours a day all his life), pianists such as Janis, Fleischer and Graffman all used fingerings that relied too heavily in extended octave passages on the fourth finger.  Wild, a great virtuoso and master teacher, maintained that overuse of the fourth finger in octave passages (even on black keys) is a certain recipe for injuries as time passes, not over-practicing.  He cited these pianists as examples since he knew their playing very well and observed their practice and performance habits time and again.

Earl Wild also said that he had never had any trouble with his hands because he had been taught properly.   He said people who develop hand problems were improperly trained.

[pytheamateur]

Are Chopin's etudes bad for your hands on the long term?

I'm thinking in particular of Op.10 No2.  If you following Chopin's fingerings, you will need to do a lot of sideway twisting of the wrist.  People are advised against such unnatural hand positions when typing on the computer keyboard, so why should playing the piano be any different?

[keyboardkat]

Some pianists rearrange the hands in this piece to the extent that they extend the left thumb to take the lowest note in the right-hand chords, so that the right hand can use 2-3-4-5 on occasion, where one might otherwise have to use 4-5-4-5, etc.

[carlnmtka]

Are Chopin's etudes bad for your hands on the long term?

I'm thinking in particular of Op.10 No2.  If you following Chopin's fingerings, you will need to do a lot of sideway twisting of the wrist.  People are advised against such unnatural hand positions when typing on the computer keyboard, so why should playing the piano be any different?

I don't think you could hurt yourself. You might want to check out this doctorate's paper (PDF), which relies on Cortot's study editions of the etudes, combined with the Alexander exercises.
https://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-10192010-151247/unrestricted/Wu_diss.pdf

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't think you could hurt yourself. You might want to check out this doctorate's paper (PDF), which relies on Cortot's study editions of the etudes, combined with the Alexander exercises.
https://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-10192010-151247/unrestricted/Wu_diss.pdf

I'm afraid that I found that extremely disappointing- offering little more than superficial statements of the obvious in an unnecessary number of words. I was at least expecting some kind of interesting insights on how to use Cortot's exercises, but I didn't see anything terribly significant at all. The advice scarcely gets beyond "lead the hand with the arm and try to stay relaxed". 

[pytheamateur]

I'm afraid that I found that extremely disappointing- offering little more than superficial statements of the obvious in an unnecessary number of words. I was at least expecting some kind of interesting insights on how to use Cortot's exercises, but I didn't see anything terribly significant at all. The advice scarcely gets beyond "lead the hand with the arm and try to stay relaxed". 

I gather the writer was awarded the doctorate?

[nyiregyhazi]

I gather the writer was awarded the doctorate?

It's one thing to get an academic degree. It's another to write something that has notable practical significance, that can come across through the exclusive medium of written words. I looked through descriptions of various Etudes looking for some special insights, but it was just a combination of the glaringly obvious and subjective descriptions of what it might feel like when doing it right (ie. not descriptions of how to get there, but simply of what it feels like when ALREADY in possession of what it takes to do it right).

[pianoplayjl]

I gather the writer was awarded the doctorate?

Just because the guy has a doc doesn't mean everything he says is useful. Cortot's stuff is more useful IMO. Now let's get back on track since we've turned a discussion of overpracticing into etudes.

JL

[pytheamateur]

Just because the guy has a doc doesn't mean everything he says is useful. Cortot's stuff is more useful IMO. Now let's get back on track since we've turned a discussion of overpracticing into etudes.

JL

My point was all we know is the paper was submitted.  If it's bad, it may not even have been accepted by the university.  I have not read the contents however.

[nyiregyhazi]

My point was all we know is the paper was submitted.  If it's bad, it may not even have been accepted by the university.  I have not read the contents however.

Well, either way, it doesn't mean there's necessarily anything worthwhile. The nature of the contents is the only thing I'd personally be interested in. I wouldn't draw anything much at all from whether it was regarded as meeting academic standards.