Scolding students

[monk]

Hello fellow piano teachers,

currently I'm somehow tired and at a loss. :-(

I am teaching at a state-run music school. So I have a fixed teaching load, and I can't really choose which students to take.

I have some little children (av. 7-9 years) who are really unnerving me. One of them, for example, can't sit still for a moment, always blathers, and it lasts always very long until he halfway follows a simple instruction like "Please don't play now!" or "Put your feet on the ground!" or "Play this tone and hold it."

A girl (9) never practices, in the lesson she is mostly unattentive and dreaming, and if she is asked to do something, she often says "I can't do that!" (Of course she can do it, and her partner with whom she has lessons together and who is even a bit younger than her always has no problems.)

A boy never practices and each lesson has lame excuses why he completely left out one assignment and only badly did the rest.

And so on.

It really concerns me that all these students are losing their interest and their fun in playing piano. I often don't see any other way out than scolding them for not practicing or for being so unruly. I have tried making practice plans where they should notate their daily practice time (signed by the parents), but with no real effect.

I don't want to become a draconic, always-scolding teacher; I'm a rather friendly guy who has much fun with music, who likes to joke and so on, and who has a good rapport with children normally; but MOST really young students I had as total beginners quit the lessons because it didn't work out!

I have tried the friendly way with encouraging and assigning only really interesting / nice pieces and so on - didn't function either. So at the moment I find me scolding rather often, and I feel miserable with it.

Especially if I begin to ask for simple reading of notes (I start without written music, which has stood the test of time), I feel that they go into resistance and listlessness mode. I'm sure that it's NOT difficult to remember after several weeks that the note on the 1st line in the treble clef is "E". But even this little mental effort seems too much for some of them. But if I don't demand real notes reading from them (and instead play the piece for them and let them imitate), then they always only imitate and don't learn the notes. Or am I wrong? ? ?

I'm totally stumped.

Or is it perhaps really so that the talented students who are willing to work and are interested are mostly going to the well-known "classical" teachers in town while I get the rest? ? ? Must I accept that I get many "students from hell" like Bernhard called them? ? ?

Regards,
Monk

[Antnee]

Now i'm not a teacher, but from what I've read and heard. There are usually a few students a teacher teaches because the teacher knows they will excel. These students do everything they're told and more. The have a deep thirst for music and feel the need to learn more and more and perfect it in every way they can. Others just help pay the bills. The 'others' maybe interested in music, but only the hard good stuff and for some reason don't have the mental capacity to see that in order to play the hard stuff in two years, you must play this now. These students will never be great pianists because they simply lack the motivation. I don't think piano is fun in the fun sense. I enjoy it because I can express my emotions on it and create some of the best music concieved by man. That's Why I play. It's a need.

Kids who don't share this enthusiasm don't find sitting at the bench hitting keys fun at all. Why should they though? If they can't connect with the music (which is the final goal) then they are missing a part of the experience. They are merely reading some foreign language and typing it out.

I don't know how successful you could be in sparking some kids interest. Have some of their assignments be to listen to a particular recording and choose what part they liked about it. Get to know the sounds they are interested in. They have to have a 'taste' I guess. They need to want to play this stuff. If they don't then they are simply wasting thiers and your time. I guess this is just the way it is... Or maybe I'm just blabbering  

-Tony-

[bernhard]

Yes, you must accept students from hell if you wish to keep this job. If you want to choose your students, you have to own the school, he he.

Now it may appear that you have several decisions to make here, (e.g. should I be idealistic and go out of my way to spread the love of music amongst the new generation who couldn’t give a toss? Should I just keep going with the façade of teaching the unteachable because of financial reasons? And so on and so forth), but actually no such decision is necessary. What follows is what I have done in your situation (yes I have been there too) with very satisfying results. Of course there is no obligation on your part to follow any of this (or even agree with it).

1.      Once upon a time, I acted as if I believed that somehow the universe had put me in the path of my students for their benefit. Such attitude resulted in resentment whenever I felt lack of appreciation from the part of the student. I was very unhappy. So I changed completely my attitude. Now I act as if I believe that the universe has put the student on my path for my benefit. What an empowering notion. Suddenly this student is there for me, and not the other way around. What am I going to do with him? I am going to practise on him. I am going to experiment with him. I am going to hone my teaching skills on him. I could not care less for his progress. Instead all I care is for my progress. As a result, I am always excited about what I am going to do; I am always eager to teach anyone; I am also a much better teacher, and the students learn much more.
2.      Now, I do not know how your school works, but when I taught in schools, the real problem always appeared in the context of groups teaching (one of the reasons I don’t teach piano in groups – I my do it for theory though). Music was never a compulsory subject. So discipline problems were easily solvable: Any student misbehaving got three warnings, the third warning he was out of the class. Three out of class and he was out of the course. The reasoning is simple: Music is not a compulsory subject. If someone signs up for a music course is because they want to learn music. They show that they want to learn music through their behaviour, and attitude. If they don’t want to learn music, what are they doing in my course? In a group situation one disruptive student can wreck it for the whole class. So a disruptive student is out of class. A consistently disruptive student is out of the course. The school where I taught never had any problems with my approach. I don’t know about yours.
3.      At the first day of the course I laid down the law. Everyone knew what I expected from them and what would happen if they did not comply. You can see an example of my rules on reply # in this thread:

4.      “I can’t do that”. The most frequently heard sentence in the whole student vocabulary. My answer: “Of course you cannot, you moron! That is why you are a student, and that is why you came to the course in the first place. If you could do it, why would you be here for crying out loud! I know you cannot do it, and now we are going to work on it until you can, and when you can I am going to give you something even more impossible! So I don’t want to hear this rubbish “I can’t do it” ever again. That is what I want to hear: “Beloved teacher, please help me achieve the impossible and I will be forever grateful”

Then I make them repeat this sentence several times. You see, depending on your personality, this may not work, so you must adapt it. I can (and do) call my students morons because of the way I do it. Believe me, I am very very funny, and everyone is usually rolling on the floor in laughter after one of my invectives like the one above. This is difficult to translate into writing, so you have to use your imagination. The point here is that I always agree with the student. I join their model of the universe. If they tell me they cannot do something, I will not reply “Oh, yes, you can, it is easy!” because if I do that I immediately loose empathy. Hence I must agree with them: “Yes of course you cannot!”, Now they will listen to me, because I have established my authority by showing them I know what I am talking about. They know they cannot do it, and now they know that I know it to. They are relieved to have found someone in the adult world that validates what they know to be true: that they cannot do it. Are you getting my drift here? This is the basic principle of the martial arts: you do not fight your aggressor, you blend with him, meet him at his strongest, and redirect his energy so he throws himself. Teaching is very similar. You must use the energy of the student back to his own benefit. Otherwise you will be using your energy and at the end of the day you will barley be able to get home form sheer exhaustion.

This sort of thing can only be hinted at a forum like that. I cannot even begin to describe the art that is involved. And exactly because of that, your students form hell are a unique opportunity in your path for you to start experimenting and finding out about this art.

Have you ever come across this situation: You tell your students: “Do not bend your finger like this (demonstrates)” and they all immediately start bending it just like they are not supposed to do? And yet no matter how many times you tell them to do the correct thing they never do? So here is an idea. Next time, tell them: “Do not use your fingers like this (and demonstrate the perfect technique).” I guarantee to you that they will all be doing exactly the correct thing. So a lot of this trickery has to be used. And you will get the hang of it, by using your students to practise it.

So I come back to my basic premise. Do not think of yourself as being there for your students. They will chew you and spit you. Instead think of your students as being there for your  benefit and chew them! They will respect, admire and love you (such is human nature)

Finally, the matter of practise, I am afraid that there is no solution within your constraints. No child will practise on her own and it is unfair to expect it from them. The only two solutions I am aware of (both inappropriate in your case) are to have the luck of parents who are prepared to be involved in the process, or to do what I do with my private students: Lessons everyday so that I practise with them on a daily basis. If anyone found this particular holy grail, please speak up!

I wish you the best of luck.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Egghead]

Yes, you must accept students from hell if you wish to keep this job. If you
...
1....Now I act as if I believe that the universe has put the student on my path for my benefit. What an empowering notion. Suddenly this student is there for me, and not the other way around. What am I going to do with him? I am going to practise on him. I am going to experiment with him. I am going to hone my teaching skills on him. I could not care less for his progress. Instead all I care is for my progress.

hahaha. I agree with the (implicit and in fact obvious) notion that we are all egoists, and might as well be honest about it (at least to ourselves). Some people happen to enjoy helping others. So, when they help someone, of course they are doing this for themselves, for their own enjoyment.

However, your account is not logical to me as it stands -
just one question: why do you want to hone your teaching skills? What for? You are not interested in the students - so you derive no pleasure from the students progress.
Their progress defines and is a measure of your success at teaching. Without a measure of success, what do you define as your progress?

3.      At the first day of the course I laid down the law. Everyone knew what I expected from them and what would happen if they did not comply. You can see an example of my rules on reply # in this thread:

I guess this is secret knowledge and thus hidden from the view of mere students.   Would you put in the thread anyway, please?  

Finally, the matter of practise, I am afraid that there is no solution within your constraints. No child will practise on her own and it is unfair to expect it from them. ...

bah, I keep reading this everywhere. Who says a kid cannot practice on her own? Who says an adult can?

I was one of these students from hell as a kid. I was not taught how to practice but to play a piece through from beginning to end. If you have ANY taste whatsover, this is pretty discouraging, and you soon give up.

This is overcome (without a teacher) once you develop enough brains to work out yourself how to practice.

holy grail coming up:
How about taking your 8 year-olds seriously. Teach them how to experiment at the piano, how to practice, how to teach themselves. Same as with an adult: enable them to get results themselves. Be there for when they have questions (they will have MANY questions!). But let them try themselves.

8 year olds play chess, read chess books (by themselves), take things apart, will untiringly practice motor skills (soccer, skate-boarding, skiing, ...), etc.
5 year olds work out how to read and will practice writing their own name (up-side down...) for hours.

There is one big difference: a week seems infinitely long to a small child. So the intervals between lessons should probably be shorter than with an adult. Between lessons, yes, they can practice on their own.

Egghead
p.s. I am just a slightly unusually articulate 9 year-old fighting ageism and practicing my debating skills

[Swan]

I remember that horrible feeling Monk!  Full of enthusiasm and rearing to teach history through drama activities.  Well, was I in for a shock!  It certainly wasn't froth and bubble and all things nice.  I spent a lot of class time YELLING at the top of my lungs to be heard over energised thirteen year old boys gone 'rampant' with the class 'assignment'.   I shudder now just thinking about it.

Yes, teaching in groups is not the ideal situation.  The larger the group, the more time you have to spend on discipling and less on teaching.  I hated teaching this particular year 8 class, because it felt like all I was doing was disciplining.

Anyway, I finally had 'time' to sit down and think about what on earth I was doing wrong.  To cut a long boring story short, I changed my approach and attitude and they became one of my favourite classes. Their group dynamic which was horrifying to me to begin with, soon became the reason why I loved them.  As soon as I lost MY attitude, they seemed to lose theirs..... Mind you, we're talking more than 12 years ago, so perhaps my memory isn't as 'crisp' as I recall.  Perhpas the "As soon as I" bit is exaggerated.

It was that class who taught me to throw away the rant and rave angle.  I worked on not taking myself or my situation too seriously.  There is a balancing act between the 'fun loving teacher' and the 'no more Mr Nice guy'.  While I was 'practising' this, I confused more than one class of kids!

I would never go back to teaching in a class room again  Being your own boss is wonderful!

Sorry, I know that doesn't help you - a little cathartic slip there.

When you're feeling this way (as you've described) it's easy to forget that kids pick up on everything!  If they think you resent them (like I did my grade 8's) they'll resent you.

Yes, it's terribly frustrating when your kids just won't practise!  And I think it's pretty normal that we feel like we must be doing something wrong, or missing something.  But like I've said in another post (somewhere, I don't know where or who to) we see these kids once a week, the parents need to take responsibilty too - and ultimately it has to fall on the shoulders of the kid.  

Having said that, I'll share with you what I've just implemented in my studio that amazes me how well it's working.  (Never tried it before because I had 'issues' with it).

For the first time in ten years I've initiated a Student of the Week Award, and the Most Improved Practise. They get a sticker, a small certificate and their name on a large fancy chart hanging in the studio.
I've always had younger kids fill in charts and what have you.  But now I keep a record of the amount of practise for every single student every single week.  They see me record it.  If they get more than the week before or the goal I set, they're allowed to guess how many pieces of chocolate I have in a jar - they know the closest guess gets to take it home at the end of the term.

Well I'm slightly flabbergasted by how well this is working and I still don't know if I approve!  But I'll continue it next term and analyse the results.

I'm not against friendly rivalry - which some kids thrive on, and I'm against the idea of 'quantity vs quality' - but I had kids in the studio who were doing only 15 to 20 minutes of practise A WEEK! Now, they've increased the time spent at the piano, as well as the quality of 'how' to practise, and they're progressing well, which makes them want to practise more!  

(By the way, it's only the younger students or beginners that need this type of encouragment.  I don't do it with my advancing students or adults.)

But if I don't demand real notes reading from them (and instead play the piece for them and let them imitate), then they always only imitate and don't learn the notes. Or am I wrong? ? ?

Nope, you're not wrong.   What strategies are you using to teach recognition of notes?

[ChristmasCarol]

Ah yes,
Bribery... If learning to play the piano doesn't turn them on, then play it for them.  I would rather shoot myself than have a compulsory class.  But in your position I would become the entertainer and teach them to observe music and identify different styles and such.  If the listening and loving of music isn't in the home/head of the student, then perhaps that is where you need to begin.  If certain students are responding then give your attention to them and let the others see the value of what you are doing first hand.

I once took some old used computer paper you know the kind that was on a roll and made a staff on the paper on the floor and showed the children whole notes and had them "write" music which I then played.  I gave them a baton and followed their lead, etc.

Serious study seems impossible here, so let yourself off the hook.

My kids all went to a Sudbury School where their activities were all student chosen.  I think compulsory education is a failure for many many students.  But you can put flexibility in the classroom especially with music.

Good luck

[Swan]

I was one of these students from hell as a kid. I was not taught how to practice but to play a piece through from beginning to end.

Perhpas you weren't a student from hell.  Perhaps you were the one who had to put up with a teacher from hell!  

[monk]

Thank you very much for your really interesting and helpful replies!  

Today I already feel better  

Especially the posts by Bernhard and Swan are really great and give me much to think about and to try in practice. Now I feel I have a direction I can go into.

Bernhard, you wrote:

I can (and do) call my students morons because of the way I do it. Believe me, I am very very funny, and everyone is usually rolling on the floor in laughter after one of my invectives like the one above.

That's a problem for me. I also can be really funny, and the humor of kids and mine can be really compatible - but when I call someone a moron (or say something similar), it's palpable that partly I really mean it (or at least that I'm really angry), and people are often offended. :-(

Best Wishes,
Monk

[Egghead]

Thank you very much for your really interesting and helpful replies!  

Today I already feel better  

Sorry, monk, I got side-tracked   ! There is a lot of material in this thread.

Glad you feel better!
About your music school- who selects the students? Is every child accepted / is their progress and attitude reviewed in some way?

Egghead

[bernhard]

Egghead:

However, your account is not logical to me as it stands -  
just one question: why do you want to hone your teaching skills? What for? You are not interested in the students - so you derive no pleasure from the students progress.  
Their progress defines and is a measure of your success at teaching. Without a measure of success, what do you define as your progress?

It is not a matter of logic.

Consider this. Have you ever tried to learn a piece back to front? That is, instead of starting with the first bar, then moving to the second then to the third and so on, learn it in reverse order: Start with the last bar. Then learn the one before the last (and join it with the last), then the previous one and so on. Logically it should make no difference one way or the other. But humans are not logical ( Vulcans have been complaining about it for a long time now). So learning back to front makes a huge []psycho[/]logical difference. Learning a piece forwards takes you from something you know to something you don’t know. Learning it backwards will take you from the unknown to something you already know. Try it both ways and be amazed.

So, it is a psychological issue. Have one attitude and you end up burn out, your students show no progress you become a failure in your eyes and in everyone’s elses. Have the other attitude and you become empowered, your students progress and you become a celebrity in your community (and pianoforum he he )

It is also a matter of philosophy. Take the statement: “Anyone can become a top concert pianist”. Is it true? Is it logical? No, but it is philosophically much sounder than only Russian prodigies are worth teaching, since as a consequence you will have far less personal limitations. There is nothing more pathetic than self-imposed limitations from misguided philosophies – by the way “everything must be logical” is such a misguided philosophy – First logic is a property of language, not of the real world. Second, people can easy believe they are being logical when they are not (the forum is full of examples, but since I am a nice guy I will make up an example rather than shame a pianoforumer):


God is love.
Love is blind.
Steve Wonder is blind.
therefore, Steve Wonder is God.

I was told I am no one.
No one is perfect.
Therefore I am perfect.
Only God is perfect.
Therefore I am perfect.

If  Steve Wonder is God, I am Steve Wonder!
My God! I am blind!!!!!!
 

I guess this is secret knowledge and thus hidden from the view of mere students.    Would you put in the thread anyway, please?    

Hey! someone is actually reading my posts with care and attention! I am flattered. Well done Egghead, you passed the test with flying colours!

Here is the thread:
https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1084025860;start=2
(reply#2)

bah, I keep reading this everywhere. Who says a kid cannot practice on her own? Who says an adult can?

I said it. And adults cannot either. At least not at the start. However, guide them daily for three months and show them how to practise correctly on a daily basis – pointing out the amazing progress that comes form it – and then, yes, they will become independent in this area. Some children (and adults) may take a longer time, some a shorter time, some may never get there. But having a 30 minutes lesson weekly with 2 weeks break every 6 weeks plus 2 months break  summer holiday, plus four week break for xmas/new year holiday, and during the lesson dropping a piece in the student’s lap and telling him/her to bring it back next week with vague exhortations to practice and then whining that students do not practise is not going to work.

I was one of these students from hell as a kid. I was not taught how to practice but to play a piece through from beginning to end. If you have ANY taste whatsover, this is pretty discouraging, and you soon give up.

Thank you for agreeing .

This is overcome (without a teacher) once you develop enough brains to work out yourself how to practice.

True, but it will take you a long time. A teacher (assuming s/he knows this stuff – you would be amazed how many of them do not have a clue) can save the students decades of wrong trials.

holy grail coming up:
How about taking your 8 year-olds seriously. Teach them how to experiment at the piano, how to practice, how to teach themselves. Same as with an adult: enable them to get results themselves. Be there for when they have questions (they will have MANY questions!). But let them try themselves.

he he . Try it. (But it is a nice and sound philosophy – it is the one I keep reminding myself of all the time)

8 year olds play chess, read chess books (by themselves), take things apart, will untiringly practice motor skills (soccer, skate-boarding, skiing, ...), etc.  
5 year olds work out how to read and will practice writing their own name (up-side down...) for hours.  

Yes and no. Part is peer pressure. In a household where music is paramount and everyone plays a musical instrument, where the neighbourhood is all involved into music, and where all the children play, a child – in such environment -  will naturally practise. In a household where the piano lesson is just one more activity to keep the children occupied so that the parents can get on with their own business, and where playing the piano (a case for boys) is seen as a sissy activity, guess what?

As for reading, here in the UK, reading in school is an everyday activity. The amount of pressure and effort and help the teachers put on reading is amazing. No wonder everyone is reading at 5-6. Now try to teach children to read by using the usual piano approach: One 30 minute lesson a week and exhortations to practice in between. Illiteracy would spread like wild fire!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Yes, teaching in groups is not the ideal situation.  The larger the group, the more time you have to spend on discipling and less on teaching.  I hated teaching this particular year 8 class, because it felt like all I was doing was disciplining.[...]


I would never go back to teaching in a class room again  Being your own boss is wonderful!

I could not agree more.

[janice]

God is love.
Love is blind.
Steve Wonder is blind.
therefore, Steve Wonder is God.

I was told I am no one.
No one is perfect.
Therefore I am perfect.
Only God is perfect.
Therefore I am perfect.

If  Steve Wonder is God, I am Steve Wonder!
My God! I am blind!!!!!!
 

LOL-- If A=B and B=C, then A=C
Isn't that the Pythagorean theorem?

[monk]

holy grail coming up:
How about taking your 8 year-olds seriously. Teach them how to experiment at the piano, how to practice, how to teach themselves. Same as with an adult: enable them to get results themselves. Be there for when they have questions (they will have MANY questions!). But let them try themselves.

Egghead, with 98% of people this (theoretically wonderful) method doesn't work out.

Normal piano students don't want to experiment, they don't want to learn about learning. Experimenting at the piano is for them like experimenting with a electronic construction kit or programming computers - a NERDY, boring, solitary activity only for pale boys with glasses and pimples who never get a girlfriend.

They just want the d*mned piece to work out as fast as possible so that they can doodle it over and over (and perhaps impress their fellow brats) and go on to the next d*mned piece.

Best Wishes,
Monk

[bernhard]

LOL-- If A=B and B=C, then A=C
Isn't that the Pythagorean theorem?

Pythagoras theorem:

On a square triangle (one in which one of the 3 angles is 90^o)
A² = B²+C²
A(larger side)
B,C (smaller sides)

[squinchy]

I'm not a teacher, but have this thought: Why not specifically (but not harshly) inform the student that their method of "studying" piano (not practicing and expecting results) is not working and will not get them to that piece that they want to play next? I wish my teacher had done that-I somehow went through a year of thinking that I was progressing with incorrect practice, but was actually going backwards.

Pythagoras theorem:

On a square triangle (one in which one of the 3 angles is 90^o)
A² = B²+C²
A(larger side)
B,C (smaller sides)

If A=B and B=C, then A=C is the transitivity axiom thingy.

[has done poorly on an Algebra II test today.]

[Spatula]

Pythagoras theorem:

On a square triangle (one in which one of the 3 angles is 90^o)
A² = B²+C²
A(larger side)
B,C (smaller sides)

A= hypotenuse! BOOYEAH!