Chopin Revolutionary Etude project

[ajspiano]

This first video shows me playing the opening of the piece, this is all I can play at a decent tempo so far after 4-5 practice sessions.. there is still much to work on just in this section. The rest of the piece I have spent very little time on HT but can play HS. I'm not posting this with the intention that it should be emulated (in fact I can site specific technical reasons it shouldn't be ). Rather, it is simply to show how well I can play the piece - to provide some accountability before you or anyone else follows my advice.

I have a great deal of thoughts reguarding improvements to my playling in this video, but I will not expound on that here as it is all relevant to my playing, not necessarily to yours.

This next video is instructional, it shows some thoughts/ideas relevant to:

in and out motions - bars 7 and 8.
rotation and avoiding finger curling - bars 9-10 and applicable to most of the piece.
Phrasing/chord grouping in RH bar 27
Rolled chord - bar 55
Forearm/wrist motion, avoiding stiff wrist, chords/octaves in groups of 2s - RH main theme.

A side not on bars 7-8. I watched your video again after recording this and realised that I am using a different fingering to you as well. This may also be a factor for you in getting this up to speed as the LH leap from 4 to 1 is tougher than from 5 to 1 in this passage. Also, the demonstration is for LH only, however the concept applies to the RH but the motions are not necessarily the same since the RH fingering is essentially the reverse of the LH - Where the movement 'in' with the LH avoids a twist/reach, in the RH moving 'in' over the same notes would make the twist worse.

I will say again that I have limited experience teaching this level material, and that I have studied the piece even less than you have yourself so please consider these just 'ideas' not absolute truths. Please question me and be willing to disagree or require further explanation, ultimately making up your own mind based on whether my thoughts make rational sense to you and your own experience in trialing them.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ: I enjoyed both your videos very, very much! You're a fine teacher. I would enjoy having lessons with you. Whether you'd enjoy having me as a student, is another matter! 

[birba]

I also enjoyed ajspiano's videos.  You have very facile finger work and you explain the mechanics of it quite well.  You hold the hand in a constant relaxed position, a lot like that gal in the "attractive pianists" thread who plays the revolutionary.  This technique is neither easy to explain nor to acquire over internet!  I'm slowly getting used to my yamaha keyboard - I've never practised on one before.  I'm just wondering if things will be this easy when I play next week on a real piano.  How do you find the difference between the two?

[costicina]

Great tutoriali video, AJ!!! You and Birba are convincing me to re-learn this piece. Thank you!!!

(To Birba, about Yamaha and piano: I've a Yamaha keyboard, too, along with a baby grand piano. Per quello che vale la mia opinione, when you return to the acoustic piano everything seems easier, a great relief! So maybe it's not a bad thing from time to time to experience the difference.
Buon soggiorno a Cape d'Antibes, maestro!!)

Margherita

[ajspiano]

Thanks, glad it can be of some use..

I would like to say that the in and out is fairly exaggerated, I think I move too deep into to black keys in the video. It shows the concept well but at the pace this passage has to go the motions can not be too large or it will begin to hinder the fluency at tempo... You have to find the right balance, and it is also certainly not the only concept at work in excecuting the line, and those leaps accurately and quickly.

Birba, I usually can transfer between real and digital instruments without much trouble. I get a problem with pianos that have sloppy actions though, takes more time to adjust. Digitals are usually lighter than real pianos, I think there's a trap there because you can get away with less arm weight in each keystroke. If that happens to the technique you can have a lower quality tone I guess and become fatigued when playing on a real piano.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:  Wouldn't that depend on the quality of the acoustic? I have a Yamaha digital and occasionally, I get to play on an acoustic. Last year, I played on a fairly old acoustic grand in a hotel. I found the keys loose and difficult to control, like loose teeth! Years ago, I had a Yamaha acoustic upright but my teacher had a very old Baldwin grand and I had trouble with his piano, too, as the keys were loose.

[caioramos]

It totally depends on the piano too. At my conservatory here the pianos have a very heavy action, so everytime I got to play on them I feel very unconfortable because the light touch of my digital. I never really got used to the conservatory pianos. BUT one of these days I went to a Steinway store, and played on a full grand concerto piano. That was incredible, I had no problem adapting! It was like a dream, the keys were a little heavier than my digital, but the mechanic is so good you have control of them.

[caioramos]

This next video is instructional, it shows some thoughts/ideas relevant to:

in and out motions - bars 7 and 8.
rotation and avoiding finger curling - bars 9-10 and applicable to most of the piece.
Phrasing/chord grouping in RH bar 27
Rolled chord - bar 55
Forearm/wrist motion, avoiding stiff wrist, chords/octaves in groups of 2s - RH main theme.

A side not on bars 7-8. I watched your video again after recording this and realised that I am using a different fingering to you as well. This may also be a factor for you in getting this up to speed as the LH leap from 4 to 1 is tougher than from 5 to 1 in this passage. Also, the demonstration is for LH only, however the concept applies to the RH but the motions are not necessarily the same since the RH fingering is essentially the reverse of the LH - Where the movement 'in' with the LH avoids a twist/reach, in the RH moving 'in' over the same notes would make the twist worse.

I will say again that I have limited experience teaching this level material, and that I have studied the piece even less than you have yourself so please consider these just 'ideas' not absolute truths. Please question me and be willing to disagree or require further explanation, ultimately making up your own mind based on whether my thoughts make rational sense to you and your own experience in trialing them.

Hi AJ

Your second video was so much enlightening for me, It just made me realize how wrong I was playing bars 7 and 8, the fingering and I actually was skipping a phrase! It was a reading mistake (shame on me). I corrected that already and I'm using the thumb to play the Bb and Eb, I'm trying to get my hand more inside the black notes and then slide down to play the white notes, gonna take some practice to perfect it.

Now I totally understand what you mean by the curling of the fingers, it really makes the hand tense and I was unaware that this was causing me some of the tension I feel, gonna practice too to make sure the hand is in it's relaxed position and the fingers not curling too much.

The phrasing on bar 27 is quite controversial. I don't know what edition you are using, but on mine the problem is that the Eb chord (Eb-F-Ab-Eb) is marked as a quarter note and just the top note (high Eb) is marked as a dotted 8th note, that means you can't take off your fingers from the first 3 notes to play the following C note, so the entire Eb chord has to be grouped with the C note as one block to them resolve on the D-F-Bb chord. Well that's how I learned at least...

Bar 55, very enlightening too, I was just doing horizontal movement, now I have an idea of the wrist/arm rotation movement! It's making it really easier to do, although I'm still having problems hitting the right notes even doing the right movement cause they are quite far from each other, I guess just practice more?

As for the arm/wrist stiffness at the end of your video, I hope I can make those octaves the way you do, they sound much better when group like that and with a relaxed hand, trying to implement that on my playing as well!


Thanks for taking your time to make the videos AJ! It helped me a lot!
When I improve the piece I will make a new recording!

Kyle

[candlelightpiano]

Kyle: I'm sure you'll improve very quickly. Your progress is phenomenal. Wish I could play as well as you do.

[ajspiano]

Your second video was so much enlightening for me

That's good, it was the idea

bars 7 and 8 - I'm trying to get my hand more inside the black notes and then slide down to play the white notes, gonna take some practice to perfect it.

I think you should be careful with this - I realise in my video that at one point I "slide" on the key, this was not my intention (i'm still working on being able to do accurate slow motion demonstrations while talking). The objective is to use the arm to bring the hand slightly in or out during the transition between notes. So that every transition is as small and comfortable. Its difficult because I've effectively given you a 2 minute crash course in something that should probably be discussed over several hours with numerous examples.

Be aware that the particular problem here is "playing fingers 2, 3, 4 or 5 on a white key, followed by the thumb on a black key" - if you are too 'out' you will have to do a large twisting motion, but if you go too 'in' you may end up crowding your fingers with black keys just creating another problem.

If you watch the one where I play the piece at speed you'll see that while the in/out is there, it is smaller than in the tutorial video. Also - I've watched lisitsa frame by frame.. she is more out that me on the B to Bb (something I will be experimenting with over the next few days), she moves 'in' closer to the black keys on the D to Eb. I think her 'in' motion also starts 2 notes in advance of the leaps, rather than 4 like I demonstrated. Her lift and rotation over to the Bb and Eb is also very significant.. I really wish I had some good footage of other performers too..

Now I totally understand what you mean by the curling of the fingers, it really makes the hand tense and I was unaware that this was causing me some of the tension I feel, gonna practice too to make sure the hand is in it's relaxed position and the fingers not curling too much.

Its certainly a tough one to explain without the visual, glad it made some sense to you. I forgot to say the difference between curling and curving.. curling refers to the concious or subconcious movement from the second knuckle, as demonstrated in the video. Curving or curve is the natural position of that knuckle (and the other nuckle). The fingers stay relaxed and "curved", and are moved from the top knuckle, the one that joins the fingers to the hand.

The phrasing on bar 27 is quite controversial. I don't know what edition you are using, but on mine the problem is that the Eb chord (Eb-F-Ab-Eb) is marked as a quarter note and just the top note (high Eb) is marked as a dotted 8th note, that means you can't take off your fingers from the first 3 notes to play the following C note, so the entire Eb chord has to be grouped with the C note as one block to them resolve on the D-F-Bb chord. Well that's how I learned at least...

firstly, its an A natural, not Ab.. but maybe that was just a typing error... I looked at several diffferent editions today, and they are all notated as you explained, including the one that I am using. The real questions here are these:

"Are you using the pedal in this bar? will the pedal be sustaining the crotchets in the 4th beat? if so, what logical reason is there to hold the notes with your fingers?" - don't tell me its 'because the score says so' - it will not change the sound of the piece, and the lift makes for the grouping of 2 notes, giving the da-dum effect, over the more tense da, dum effect.

Bar 55, very enlightening too, I was just doing horizontal movement, now I have an idea of the wrist/arm rotation movement! It's making it really easier to do, although I'm still having problems hitting the right notes even doing the right movement cause they are quite far from each other, I guess just practice more?

without seeing what you are now doing I can't really say anything other than practice more.. I think the critical idea is practice with thought, don't assume that what your now doing is exactly right even though its easier than the old movement.. rather, you may be closer to right.

as far as the RH octave, I have a few more ideas about how to explain the motion and avoiding the stiffness.. I think I really just explained what to do, there was no real explanation regarding the mechanics of 'how' to do it..  maybe I'll give that a crack later on if you are still having trouble with them..

AJ

[ajspiano]

As far as the transition between pianos, yes it is very dependent on the individual instrument.. There's a really poor condition grand in a bar here in the melbourne CBD. anyone is allowed to go and play..  I find it really difficult to play it because the action is soooo bad. Its not overall heavy or light, rather one key will be very heavy, then the next key will be very light.. Near impossible to adjust to it.

When I say I have no trouble I mean when moving to a quality piano with an average weighted, well regulated action.

[birba]

My teacher used to say a good equestirian can ride ANY horse.   

[ajspiano]

My teacher used to say a good equestirian can ride ANY horse.   

This is fair, but they wouldn't ride a donkey in the Olympic games now would they..

In any case..I'm not that good at piano.

[caioramos]

This is fair, but they wouldn't ride a donkey in the Olympic games now would they..

haha! love it

[candlelightpiano]

This is fair, but they wouldn't ride a donkey in the Olympic games now would they..

In any case..I'm not that good at piano.

Ha ha! YOU'RE not that good at piano?? You've got to be kidding!

[ajspiano]

I can play, but I am aware of many faults in my playing. There I always work to do. I'll be satisfied when I can improvise a piece like the rev and it sound as well rehearse as pollini's recording.

[candlelightpiano]

Do you perform, AJ? What do you mean by "improvise a piece like the Rev"?

[ajspiano]

I don't perform as much as I used to..  I did cocktail piano gigs a few years back, and I've been in a ton of bands. If I perform these days its usually guitar/vocals because its a lot easier to find gigs in that form and I prefer the small cosy audiences you get in venues that do those gigs, and the culture in certain parts of melbourne that wants to hear original compositions.

improvise a piece like the rev.. 

well I can sit down at a piano, with an audience and comfortably just play something that neither I or them has ever heard before.. hence improvise..  ..I'd like to be good enough at that to come up with something as powerful and thrilling as this etude on the spot without having to practice it first.

Years of practice to go obviously.

[candlelightpiano]

improvise a piece like the rev.. 

well I can sit down at a piano, with an audience and comfortably just play something that neither I or them has ever heard before.. hence improvise..  ..I'd like to be good enough at that to come up with something as powerful and thrilling as this etude on the spot without having to practice it first.

Years of practice to go obviously.

WOW! To improvise something like the Rev or Fantasie Impromptu would be phenomenal!  The composers used to do that all the time. If I had a chance to be in a certain period for a day, I would most definitely want to be around during the time of Beethoven when he was a champion at improvisation. It's cool that you can improvise! What a talent!

[gn622]

im currently learning this piece but im having trouble with the chord at 0:45 in this video:

even though i have a decent hand size (i make comfortably stretch an octave plus one key) it seems impossible to play 

[caioramos]

I have rather above average hand size, and I find it difficult to play that chord too (Eb-F-A-D). It's very hard to not hit the F# with my 2nd finger, or the C with my 5th. It's quite a stretch this chord

[ajspiano]

I have rather above average hand size, and I find it difficult to play that chord too (Eb-F-A-D). It's very hard to not hit the F# with my 2nd finger, or the C with my 5th. It's quite a stretch this chord

Rotational balance toward the thumb (should clear up the F#), and forward momentum into the keys (should make it easier to hit the D).

Probably pretty hard to understand without a visual..  in my video I talked about the Bb chord and this chord being a group of 2, before lifting to the next notes..  This is one of the reasons why, the pushing of your hand and arm into position for this F7 chord is what makes it easier to play, rather than trying to stretch out your fingers..

[tdawe]

It's certainly motivational to see someone tackling such challenging pieces as Chopin etudes after just 1 year of playing (if maybe a little misguided!)

I do wonder though, what you think is so hard about Op. 10 / 4? Technically it's one of the easiest etudes, Op.10 / 2 and Op.25 / 11 are far harder.