It is impossible to become a concert pianist?

[lostinidlewonder]

In other cases, think big and you end up getting knocked out cold by an opponent you don't have the skill to be taking on. To encourage someone at grade 4 standard (a standard that is very typically reached by 12 or 13 year olds who are not even terribly remarkable) to start thinking about booking out venues is absurd.

I'd rather get knocked out cold than live a life being too afraid of taking a risk. You are very welcome to your idea and many people are in the same boat as yourself but you have to realize that there are people who think "outside the box", they dream and aspire and get amazing results from it. No one here (except yourself) was talking about the OP immediately booking out a large concert hall. Read some motivational books and books on goal setting, I find if you inspire your students more so than demoralize them with their limitations you can produce results that the student would otherwise never achieve. Positive thinking and thinking big are very important when it comes to learning the piano because too many people I have found think too little of themselves and thus never progress as far as they could otherwise with the instrument.

[caioramos]

Hey, i just noticed that my teacher always mention about adult student can't become a concert pianist or performer. It makes me feel sad and depressed all the time.

Honestly, the first feeling that occurs to me when I read this is that the use of the word "mention" is intending an out of the blue statement, and also when he says "I just noticed", makes me think this teacher, knowing or not the op's intention, likes to get rid of any hope his adult beginner students may possibly have about this, and he does it frequently, so if the op get's sad by hearing this, he wouldn't ask his teacher twice about it, but the way he phrased sounds like the teacher often brings the point up in a casual conversation. I can totally picture this kind of teacher, he is so sure no one can do it, he is so pragmatic that on a casual conversation with a student he just might say that. Maybe he is frustrated cause he himself started late and never did it, who knows!

But there's no way to know exactly, I can be wrong.
Also, I agree with Nyir that its quite odd a teacher saying this to his students without been prompted. But as keybed said, we can't imagine because we ourselves wouldn't do it.

The op could explain the situation better to us.

[faa2010]

I've read some of the replies, and there are things that I still can't understand like what is the real definition of talent and virtuous.

Also if one really wants something, one can do it as long as one believes and has the courage, which many of us are lacking sometimes.

I have a peer whom I went to a recital where both we played, she is in the region of 35 and she hasn't played for a long time.

I don't think adults should be banned for beginning late with playing an instrument as well as performing.  It's just, like other posts mentioned, children are more malleable and "open-minded" when it is about learning new stuff. However, on the other hand, young people may lack the interest or the conviction to do it even though they learn it. 

In the case of us, adults, we can have a real interest and fondness for learning.  The disadvantage is that we have to work really hard and being patient for real for the good results.

Being impatient is also shown in young people, only that they have the advantage of getting everything "faster".  One of the causes of being frustrated and not accepting failure is because one is impatient.

Being a concert pianist is not impossible, what it can be impossible is "being discovered" by someone and becoming rich and famous for doing what you like. Getting that is just a question of luck like every other artist.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'd rather get knocked out cold than live a life being too afraid of taking a risk. You are very welcome to your idea and many people are in the same boat as yourself but you have to realize that there are people who think "outside the box", they dream and aspire and get amazing results from it.

The point is that you don't need to risk getting knocked out. The poster who reached grade 8 in a year and went to music college said how he did NOT have big expectations upon starting. He simply started with sincere interest but a very clear sense of humility (a quality that is neither negative nor presumptive) and then found himself in a position where he can reasonably consider longer term goals. The honest truth is that no amount of will-power can necessarily force an average person to become a concert pianist. Unless a person makes remarkable progress, to encourage them to dream is to set them up for major disappointment- and to distract them from the only path that could get them anywhere.

No one here (except yourself) was talking about the OP immediately booking out a large concert hall.

Myself included actually. I was pointing how ridiculous it is to put these ideas into the head of a grade 4 pianist AT ALL. Wise goal setting is based upon steps. If the steps are not on track, it's really not a good idea to think too far ahead. If they are, then new goals can continually be added. To become a concert pianist is not something you can force by setting an over the top goal at the outset. And neither is even the hardest work enough to make it a formality. I've encountered students at college who began young, practised 10 hours a day and were still TERRIBLE pianists!!!! Realistic goals are much more useful- especially when you're getting off the ground. If you find them being met, then you can start thinking about bigger goals. But to fixate on the end, before getting anywhere near it, is simply to distract yourself from the path that could get you there.

Millionaires don't get where they are by dreaming about having loads of money. Those who only dream about having money and spending it are those who continue to be extremely disappointed fantasists. Those who succeed focus on HOW they are going to get there (and continue to assess whether they are on track)- not the final goal. In this case, the first how is to learn to play the piano. Nothing else has any relevance unless that happens. If short-term steps are not successfully being taken left, right and centre, long-term goals (that contribute nothing to that process) are simply a waste of time.

[lostinidlewonder]

The point is that you don't need to risk getting knocked out. ......

Even those with a degree in music and who are highly trained in performance get knocked out when they attempt to have a solo career. There is no fail safe way. It is productive to learn how to perform on stage at any stage of your musical development, to say you need to wait till you are a master is a real waste of practical experience you could attain from years of trail and error. You must fail and make mistakes on the stage so you learn, you better start doing them sooner rather than later as you may give up trying to have a performance career if you find out that no matter how well you play people are not captivated by your concert presentation.

I was pointing how ridiculous it is to put these ideas into the head of a grade 4 pianist AT ALL.

You have not proved how dreaming and thinking big is ridiculous and in fact many people who teach motivation in business and education would be on a difference stance as yourself. No one is saying there is just a quick route into becoming a concert pianist and if you take time to read my posts on the issue you will notice nothing I say condones this.

There is however no specific time when one should start dreaming to become a concert pianist, if it is something they feel then feel it, you do not need to supress this urge.

If you still do not believe it is good then I wonder why motivational education hold such prime position in ALL leading businesses in this world.

[nyiregyhazi]

Also if one really wants something, one can do it as long as one believes and has the courage, which many of us are lacking sometimes.

So a person in their thirties, with no formal education, a criminal record and a heroin addiction can become an astronaut or professional tennis player- provided that they really want to? Phrasing things this way is not conducive to reaching long-term goals. The reason that we only hear about the success stories from of blind optimism is because those who crash and burn fall off the radar. The most consistent path to success is to have a sense of pragmatism and humility- not some kind of God complex that says "I can do absolutely anything I choose".

If you look at the popular American dream story of Rudy, you'll see that his achievement was not all that big at all, on paper. His personal achievement was doing better than anyone thought was possible (and indeed taking pleasure from doing so)- not transcending reality with fantastical delusions.

[nyiregyhazi]

Even those with a degree in music and who are highly trained in performance get knocked out when they attempt to have a solo career. There is no fail safe way.

You miss my point. It was that an adult-learner with a sense of perspective should never be in a position of throwing away their day job, unless they arrive in a position of having already made spectacular progress and arrived at a standard comparable to those trained in performance. To even contemplate entering the ring without first getting to that standard would just be foolhardy. The fact that those who have studied for years will almostly certainly crash and burn themselves hardly runs contrary to my point.

There is however no specific time when one should start dreaming to become a concert pianist, if it is something they feel then feel it, you do not need to supress this urge.

A person who has such an urge needs to understand more about it and how they (as an individual- not as part of a demographic) are on track. That's all I'm saying. Putting ideas in their head about how to market oneself as a concert pianist (and suggesting that this is what it's really about) is not healthy. If you can play the piano to concert standard it's about marketing. If you can't play the piano to concert standard, it's about learning to play the piano to concert standard. And that's an "if"- not a "when".

[lostinidlewonder]

It was that an adult-learner with a sense of perspective should never be in a position of throwing away their day job, unless they arrive in a position of having already made spectacular progress and arrived at a standard comparable to those trained in performance. To even contemplate entering the ring without first getting to that standard would just be foolhardy.

But neither you or I have heard the OP play the piano or have any idea how far they will progress, neither do any of us know their financial position, the musical connection they have and the business guidance they may have access to. So it is useless to say, "Hey you!! Get your head out of the clouds you are not good enough! Humble yourself!" A constructive response would be yes certainly feel the desire to be a concert performer but what are you going to do to get there? Certainly not say, put being a concert pianist totally out of your mind and start elsewhere, that is denying the power of long term goals setting and dreaming something of which many sucessful people in this world use today and have used throughout history. There is no point in me discussing these issues as they have been extensively written about in many motivational books and taught in institutions worldwide.  

Putting ideas in their head about how to market oneself as a concert pianist (and suggesting that this is what it's really about) is not healthy. If you can play the piano to concert standard it's about marketing. If you can't play the piano to concert standard, it's about learning to play the piano to concert standard.

If the OP is so obsessed about becoming a concert pianist then there is nothing really you and I can say that will make them forget about that burning desire. So the best thing I feel is for them to go out and try to do it themselves. Once they try to do it they may see it not through the rose tinted glass that they where. Once you go about trying to host a piano solo concert and put your money where your mouth is it is certainly a different ball game, it is damn hard work just like any other business. Just being able to play the piano well is just not going to cut it or the vast majority these days (and I doubt many of us will teach any student that will become a concert pianist solely from their playing ability so it becomes irrelevant to talk about because it is such a small % of people). So you might as well jump on the stage whenever you can and learn the ropes, the reality of what it means to be a concert pianist might hit you then.

It certainly is a wonderful feeling performing on stage with 1000+ people attending just to watch you play. But getting a hall filled doesn't just happen by magic, the work behind selling a concert in my opinion is more difficult than playing the piano. What a wonderful dream it would be to simply pay for a venue and have it fill up, perhaps you can do that if you are world famous, but I even outsold world famous concert pianists in the same concert hall in my country, so you can't really rely on fame as a solo pianist, if you are a famous singer that's different.

[nyiregyhazi]

But neither you or I have heard the OP play the piano or have any idea how far they will progress, neither do any of us know their financial position, the musical connection they have and the business guidance they may have access to. So it is useless to say, "Hey you!! Get your head out of the clouds you are not good enough! Humble yourself!"

The point is that anyone who would be in a position to succeed would have to be making truly outstanding progress. So the only sensible stance (without evidence that this is the case and with the poster stating that they are at grade 4) is to be clear about how unlikely it is- and that whether it's going to happen or not, the only possible way to get there is to start with smaller goals.

It certainly is a wonderful feeling performing on stage with 1000+ people attending just to watch you play. But getting a hall filled doesn't just happen by magic, the work behind selling a concert in my opinion is more difficult than playing the piano.

Maybe. But it's different if you can already play the piano.
  

[lostinidlewonder]

The OP will not die if they go try do some public performances now. Who says they have to play a large concert, maybe 10 minutes at a church to start out, this all adds to the experience of what it means to be a concerting musician. I played in countless places from the age of 3 till until the end of my schooling years before I did my first public solo recital. The knowledge I gained from peforming on stage continually was invaluable and not something you can ever learn anywhere else, it is something that requires practical experience. The OP needs to experience concert performance asap if they aspire to be a perfomer, there is simply no best time to start. So what if they only perform grade 4 music? This is enough for a small little presentation and if you can say a litle bit about the composer and the piece then congradulations you are gaining some concerting experience. But this doesn't mean Carnegie here I come next week! But what is the problem with dreaming that you will do it? Nothing is wrong, so long you know how to let that thinking empower you, not just constantly be a distant dream forever.

[nyiregyhazi]

The OP will not die if they go try do some public performances now. Who says they have to play a large concert, maybe 10 minutes at a church to start out, this all adds to the experience of what it means to be a concerting musician.

Of course. What I was commenting on was the idea of starting to even contemplate booking out venues for cash. Such considerations would be an extremely long way down the line. Also, they may love it- but they still need to understand how unlikely it is to get to true concert pianism. There's a difference between pleasing a few people with Grade 4 pieces and actually being good enough to get people to hear a one-man solo recital. Particularly if there's no interest in teaching, a person needs to realise that the odds of performance being anything more than hobby (no matter how far they progress) are close to zero.

[keypeg]

Niye., you have not understood anything that I have written.  You are responding to things that you think that I am saying, which I am not.  I believe you are also responding to things that you think the OP is thinking, rather than what he is thinking (which frankly, none of us can know).  This conversation is a fail.  You have this image in your head, and responding to that image.  I do not have that image.  This won't work.

[nyiregyhazi]

Niye., you have not understood anything that I have written.  You are responding to things that you think that I am saying, which I am not.  I believe you are also responding to things that you think the OP is thinking, rather than what he is thinking (which frankly, none of us can know).  This conversation is a fail.  You have this image in your head, and responding to that image.  I do not have that image.  This won't work.

Could you please clarify where? What repeatedly strikes me is that virtually all of your points are almost all the same as mine. It's all very well wanting to leave open the fantastically improbable possibility that the poster is making remarkable progress of the kind that could lead to a performance standard (yet his terrible teacher is trying to bring him down based on generalisations) but the odds are truly miniscule. I do not believe in assuming the fantastically improbable without cause. If an adult beginner is crushed by the thought that they might not reach a concert pianist standard (before they are in a position to have a clue what that really entails and without having shown us evidence that they are making the prodigious progress that would have to be happening), their entire basis for learning the piano is flawed. They are not in it for the right reasons.  


You didn't answer my question about whether you personally wonder whether your are on track for the standard required for a concert career. From your posts, I'm quite sure that you don't. The point is that this is not negative thinking. It's humility and pragmatism. Negatives only arise when people ask questions that are completely unjustified by their circumstances. The title of this thread contains such a question. Even if the teacher brought it up unprompted for some mystifying reason, no normal person should bat an eye-lid- any more than a first time thirty year-old golfer would be disappointed if his teacher told him that while he won't get to be a professional, he may achieve a decent overall game. Anyone who sees negatives in that type of comment is a fantasist, who needs more grounding in reality.

[keypeg]

Answer:

You are starting with the following picture:

Student definitely wants to be a concert pianist.  Student is continually asking his teacher about being a concert pianist.  Student is trying to play concert pianist type of music.  Or, student is not working on immediate nitty gritty stuff that needs to be mastered at the beginning levels.  I.e. if you aim to be a performer (of any kind at any level) then you will be trying to do this immediately. 

The picture I described is not the picture that I am addressing.

First off, I have no picture of what the OP is thinking because none of us can know what he is thinking.  I've had that nonsense done to me, where some teacher thinks that after a few conversations with me, never having worked with me (but still more than a single post as here) she knows everything about me.  In fact, I have been told these preposterous things, and I have been told of these magical powers where a teacher will know what we are thinking, and they are infallible by dint of being a teacher.  You are not doing that, but I do have an allergy against assumptions because they were very harmful.

In the GENERAL way that we (some of us) continued about STUDENTS IN GENERAL - aiming high works as follows:

I want to play very well indeed.  What do I need to do to get there?  Learn my notes, master how to play evenly, get control of touch, etc. etc.?  Ok, let's get at it.  Starts working seriously on basic things, knowing they are the foundation of excellent playing.  Some of us do think that way, you know!  If you aim high then this can be a motivation for careful slow work.

[keypeg]

I am also going by something that you may be unaware of.  Many adults start with an attitude that goes something like this:

I don't have a right to be doing this.  It is not my place, and I am ridiculous.  The poor playing which I myself can hear proves that I have no talent, and as  soon as my teacher sees this he will hate teaching me.  In fact, he is probably teaching me out of pity or for the money.  There is something wrong with me: my age means that I learn very slowly, forget things, my body is brittle and can't do much.  I know this because everyone says so.  I'm already doomed.

You take this mindset, and continually tell this person that he can never (whatever) - it's the worst possible thing.

What you do do is explain how learning works.  You explain that being able to play notes evenly is a huge and important thing.  You explain that being able to count to four and play in time is a huge thing, it is in fact difficult, that the foundation of the greatest players lies in such abilities.  You explain that what will impress you at this time is that if you ask for even playing, and it's practised, and the student comes back with it, that this is what will please you the most, because it means you are both building that foundation.

You do away with misconceptions.  You understand those misconceptions, the emotions that they cause, and get at them from the core.  You do not address the side effects of the misconceptions.  So many times teachers talk about adult students trying to impress them, when in fact that student may be desperate not to be dropped because he does not understand what the criteria actually are.   He does not understand how it works.  Instead of explaining how it works, they go at it with "You will never become a performer." because they don't know what is going on.  They address the wrong thing.

[nyiregyhazi]

Student definitely wants to be a concert pianist.  Student is continually asking his teacher about being a concert pianist.  Student is trying to play concert pianist type of music.  Or, student is not working on immediate nitty gritty stuff that needs to be mastered at the beginning levels.  I.e. if you aim to be a performer (of any kind at any level) then you will be trying to do this immediately. 

Well, actually you are completely misinterpreting what I am saying then. I am saying that for the poster to even be asking the question, while at Grade 4 standard, is unhealthy. And for them to feel downtrodden even if the teacher is the one who mentions it is also a sign of an unhealthy attitude. I made no assumptions. I dealt with various possibilities and pointed out that in ALL of these possibilities, it is totally unhealthy to be thinking in these terms.

You are not doing that, but I do have an allergy against assumptions because they were very harmful.

The only assumption I'm making is that the poster is not in a position to appreciate what the standard of concert pianism entails and is not going to be making the progress that might take them there. This is virtually 100% certain and must be the default assumption- unless the poster provides evidence of some kind of remarkable progress or ability.

[nyiregyhazi]

I am also going by something that you may be unaware of.  Many adults start with an attitude that goes something like this:

I don't have a right to be doing this.  It is not my place, and I am ridiculous.  The poor playing which I myself can hear proves that I have no talent, and as  soon as my teacher sees this he will hate teaching me.  In fact, he is probably teaching me out of pity or for the money.  There is something wrong with me: my age means that I learn very slowly, forget things, my body is brittle and can't do much.  I know this because everyone says so.  I'm already doomed.

Exactly. They do it because they want to have a go at playing. Not because they expect to be extremely talented and in a position to become public performers. Such a thing wouldn't even cross most people's minds. So they don't think "What? I'm not going to become a concert pianist?"- or post on a forum to express their surprise. If a teacher says "obviously you're not going to become a concert performer, but you can still learn to play extremely well", only a complete fantasist would regard that a piece of criticism, rather than as an act of positive encouragement. How overblown must a person's expectations be, to respond badly to being told they are not going to become a performer (by a teacher who is going to have a very good idea of whether they are displaying the outstanding qualities that would be required). You're the one speculating as to whether this teacher might have a generally derogatory and negative attitude- when it's clear that the student needs to stop dwelling on all the wrong issues and look instead at feasible steps of learning with humility and awareness of what they are undertaking.

[keypeg]

I have had teachers - usually ones who did not know me or had not work with me - tell me out of the blue that I will not become a concert pianist or a performer, when I said I was an adult student (some years ago).  It is disconcerting and can make you feel weird, especially when starting something.  If you're told this often enough, at some point you're going to wonder what that means, and maybe want to ask.

I think actually that we should wait for the OP to say something, and if nothing is said, drop the thread.  This is silly.  One question is asked.  No response from the asker - and everyone getting into a tizzy about it.  Enough speculation.  Merry Christmas!

[nyiregyhazi]

I have had teachers - usually ones who did not know me or had not work with me - tell me out of the blue that I will not become a concert pianist or a performer, when I said I was an adult student (some years ago).  It is disconcerting and can make you feel weird, especially when starting something.  If you're told this often enough, at some point you're going to wonder what that means, and maybe want to ask.

Perhaps they've seen a great number of adults who simply do not understand what it takes to reach such a standard. The thing about such a comment is that it's down to the tone in which it is expressed. There should be nothing remotely weird about hearing such a thing unless it is expressed as part of a generally negative and condescending attitude, in general. If so, this attitude and the spirit in which is was stated is the issue- not the statement itself. However, the reason they said such a thing is doubtless because they've encountered so many students with a lack of understanding of what it takes and had to be upfront with them- after seeing them deluding themselves about what they can reasonably hope to achieve.

I don't think it would be right for a teacher to state such a thing in a patronising manner (that assumes the student is really expecting to become a concert pianist and must be put right). However, if a teacher phrases it in a positive way, before talking about how much a late stater can achieve, a reasonable person with humility (rather than delusionally premature expectations) should not be remotely troubled. I think it's absolutely right to be upfront with students and check that they are not starting with unreasonable expectations- provided that it's done with a positive attitude.

There's a big difference between saying that adult beginners cannot learn to play well and that adult beginners do not get to be concert pianists. The former would be unforgivable, but the latter is simply based on observation of the real world.

[lostinidlewonder]

.. I was commenting on was the idea of starting to even contemplate booking out venues for cash. Such considerations would be an extremely long way down the line.

To think about it now is not dangerous at all, but to obsess about it without considering how you are going to move towards logically is. Almost everything we achieve in life was at first only a thought. I even get my low grade students to study grades much more advanced than they are capable of, stretching people is very helpful but certainly you want to be guided through this process. So if the OP has someone with professional concert experience then perhaps they can get a head start learning how to perform through them. Strech yourself, work outside of your comfort zones, trying to do everything safe and stepwise may indeed make you think you are never ready and you may simply study music your whole life constantly thinking you are not ready yet, you're not ready yet, more practice etc.

...but they still need to understand how unlikely it is to get to true concert pianism.

I don't think it is exclusive knowledge that becoming a concert pianist and making a living off purely from performance is not likely (even for the greatest pianists in this world). There is an inherent danger however thinking that a long term goal is indeed impossible to achieve, if someone has this mind set then they will certainly not achieve. As a teacher I am a source for inspiration and encouragement, there is nothing wrong with big thinking even though we might think ourselves that the person will never achieve it, as educators it is our responsibility NEVER to squash anyones dreams with our personal opinion. Encouraging students even if what they want to do seems impossible is beneficial, your students will love you for it and work so much harder. However if you constantly pull them down to reality and show them what they need to achieve and how far away they are from it, you demoralise them, they start to take less chances, they do not put their neck out and risk failure, they end up working uninspired.

There's a difference between pleasing a few people with Grade 4 pieces and actually being good enough to get people to hear a one-man solo recital.

There may be a difference since generally who wants to hear a grade 4, hour+ piano solo concert? (I know many people who do not listen to piano music wouldn't know the difference) However who is to say it couldn't be done, I am sure it could/has be done and in an entertaining manner. But the crux of the issue is that the OP needs to perform now and get that experience now, it really doesn't matter what grade they play, the procedure of performance not change no matter how far you improve your playing skills, if you cannot entertain an audience with grade 4 pieces you will not be able to do it with higher grades (this is where your performance product comes under scrutiny). What it felt like for me to stand on stage as a child to what it feels like an adult has practically no difference so too is there little difference in the feeling I got when I started performing professionally. To think that is magically changes when you become professional or have mastered difficult repertoire sets you up for disappointment.

[ajspiano]

How do you think OP is defining 'concert pianist'?

I tend to consider it to be someone capable of providing a flawless solo performance of at least 1 hours duration, comprised entirely of advanced repertoire.

This is not something I'm capable of.

On the other hand, I have been a cocktail pianist in a hotel, performing for 3-4 hours at a time. I've also played weddings, been payed as a session pianist for recordings, played in numerous bands, worked as an accompanist at actual performances (as opposed to examinations). I don't consider myself a concert pianist, but I think I can qualify as being a professional performer of sorts...

Also think that an aspiring beginner that wants to be a professional performer probably defines that as being paid to play infront of an actual audience and being able to  perform something that impresses the audience. That can certainly be done without having mastered all the chopin etudes.

[lostinidlewonder]

I have had teachers - usually ones who did not know me or had not work with me - tell me out of the blue that I will not become a concert pianist or a performer, when I said I was an adult student (some years ago).  It is disconcerting and can make you feel weird, especially when starting something.  If you're told this often enough, at some point you're going to wonder what that means, and maybe want to ask.

I think these teachers should not be in the teaching profession. I have come across many of these type of teachers throughout my music career and it is no surprise that they may have one or two excellent students but the rest of them suffer and get no where. A teacher who acts as a source of inspiration causes their students to progress much faster than ever before. A teacher who challenges their students and constantly stretches them and guides them through this process will produce excellent results. A teacher who treats each student like cattle and each and every one of them have to jump though certain hoops before progressing to the next stage will generally produce mediocre results from their students. A teacher who is too careful with their student and never lets them fail simply sets them up for strife when they hit plateus later on in their piano playing journey and certainly will make them hate the performance stage where you can fail even though you practiced so hard.

In reality the teacher will never be able to make the student play at a high standard, the student has to really do it themselves, the teacher is just there for guidance. For the teacher to say "You can't do it full stop." is extremely arrogant, and teachers do not have that power of perception to say things like this, even if you think you are 99.99% sure they will not make it you still have no right to say such things. If you do you simply miss out on what it means to inspire your students and in my opinion are a much lesser teacher.

How do you think OP is defining 'concert pianist'?

I tend to consider it to be someone capable of providing a flawless solo performance of at least 1 hours duration, comprised entirely of advanced repertoire.

This is not something I'm capable of.

The concept of concert pianist is different everywhere, talking about concert pianists in a piano forum may inspire us thinking about the greatest concert pianists in our history. But the reality is that being a concert performer really does not need to fit any cliche these days. You do not need to play difficult music flawlessly, that product has been done to death and is now in the 21st century quite boring and uninteresting. One might as well stay home and listen to their engineered CD recordings if they need such things imo.

[ajspiano]

I think these teachers should not be in the teaching profession.

I strongly agree with this. And I certainly never verbalize to a student any of my opinions about their 'potential' - the aim is always just to encourage/inspire.

And since I've seen an adult with no musical background come to me for lessons after learning most of moonlight sonatas 3rd mov by ear - I'm also pretty cautious about making assumptions about anyone based on their age.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think these teachers should not be in the teaching profession. I have come across many of these type of teachers throughout my music career and it is no surprise that they may have one or two excellent students but the rest of them suffer and get no where.

It sounds to me like a teacher who has grown so tired of students coming with delusional expectations (who likely give up, after realising they are not going to fulfill them) that he starts assuming the worst. There's certainly no excuse for saying such a thing in a negative way. However, there are students who really do need to hear this. For an average person with humility and grounding in reality, the never say never approach is absolutely right.

 However, for those who have no concept of what piano playing takes, and sincerely believe they could be a performing artist (before having the first idea as to what it takes and without showing special abilities) I believe that a voice of pragmatism is absolutely right. If there's even a slim chance, you'll soon get an idea as to whether the student has the kind of potential to be the one-in-a-million genius. If that's not happening, but it's clear that the student seriously thinks they might be on track for something amazin, the only right thing to do is to be clear that a concert career is not going to be happening (perhaps speaking about adult beginners in general, rather than single them out as untalented) but to turn it around the positives of what they CAN reasonably expect to achieve.

While every case should be judged on its own merits, there are cases where taking a never say never approach (rather than being honest, yet positive) would be morally unforgivable, in my opinion. If a person has normal humility, there's no cause to bring them down. When a person has no grasp of feasible reality (which really isn't uncommon) it's not right to keep them in the dark, simply for the sake of wishing never to be even slightly negative.

[lostinidlewonder]

In my mind a teacher is ALWAYS a source of inspiration, it is rare to have delusional students because usually they are those that only think and have never done. All of my students who are interested in performing have "done", they don't just "think", so if they with all their heart want to be a concert pianist they go through the routine to become one whether I think they could or not. This means doing solo performances and sharpening that performance sword. I have had one particular student who dreamed about becoming a performer and after doing some concerts themselves found out that it was not all it cracked up to be.

A teacher merely needs to make the student start performing instead of putting negative words into their heads. Don't talk about it, do it, I think that is the best solution, the student must work it out for themselves, the teacher has no right to tell them in my opinion that they cannot. A clever teacher will guide the student into answer their performance desires themselves, not put up more barriers, what is the point of having a teacher who put more obstacles in your way? Sure perhaps you didn't know that you didn't know and the teacher can point that out through practical example (not just words), but it is certainly more effective turning the student into realizing that they know they didn't know rather than keeping them in the realms of obscurity, spoonfeeding them negative opinion that they are not ready yet, good enough etc. Let them work it out for themselves by guiding them through the process.

The same goes for when students want to play their dream piece which is much too dificult for them. I never tell them it is too hard, we go straight into it and start learning it as if they had the capability to work with it. After one lesson most of them admit the piece is too difficult and want to tackle something else, I never had to tell them it was too hard, I just had to put them through it and let them find that out themselves (although you do get some that submit to the workload and produce fantastic results, this is what I call "stretching" the student and if done effectively can accelerate the students ability level quite rapidly). I am a sneaky teacher in that way

[keypeg]

the original post

Hey, i just noticed that my teacher alwasy mention about adult student can't become a concert pianist or performer...

Just in case the word "performer" is still being missed.

[keypeg]

Lostinidlewonder - thank you.

[faa2010]

So a person in their thirties, with no formal education, a criminal record and a heroin addiction can become an astronaut or professional tennis player- provided that they really want to? Phrasing things this way is not conducive to reaching long-term goals. The reason that we only hear about the success stories from of blind optimism is because those who crash and burn fall off the radar. The most consistent path to success is to have a sense of pragmatism and humility- not some kind of God complex that says "I can do absolutely anything I choose".

If you look at the popular American dream story of Rudy, you'll see that his achievement was not all that big at all, on paper. His personal achievement was doing better than anyone thought was possible (and indeed taking pleasure from doing so)- not transcending reality with fantastical delusions.

Ok, I suppose I wrote this sentence in a fairy and princess tales' cliché that you and others see in a black and white way.  

I didn't want to mean to follow a God Complex or fantastical delusions, it's just about having enough CONFIDENCE to do it.  As you wrote and I agree with is having a sense of pragmatism and HUMILITY.  Ie. you don't have enough money for piano lessons, but you can have a job which can sustain you and with knowing how to administate your time and money you can learn, and with PATIENCE you can fairly do it even though you can't play difficult pieces at the moment, you cannot earn money because of playing piano and everyone criticizes you and tells you to stop doing it because you don't have talent.  What matters is that you love playing piano and because of that you still want to learn, play and improve more despite not being in the Grand Leagues.

Maybe you haven't read that my peer of around 35 years old who played with me with a recital.  She hasn't played for a long time because of her job, but she returned this year to continue her lessons.

Maybe you haven't read the last part of what I wrote: that it's not impossible to become a concert pianist (which I suposse consists of performing to an audience no matter when (in vacations, Christmas, after you return from job or school), where (your house, at the music classroom, in the music store, etc) and to who you perform (to your family, close friends, acquaintances, your teacher, your class peers, your co-workers, etc)).  What it's REALLY impossible is being a renown pianist and become rich and famous because of that.

[nyiregyhazi]

After one lesson most of them admit the piece is too difficult and want to tackle something else, I never had to tell them it was too hard, I just had to put them through it and let them find that out themselves (although you do get some that submit to the workload and produce fantastic results, this is what I call "stretching" the student and if done effectively can accelerate the students ability level quite rapidly). I am a sneaky teacher in that way

Personally, I had the opposite experience from this approach. I had an absolute beginner who was determined to do the chopin C minor nocturne. He did very well, considering, with the opening. However, he also wanted to try the recap and did himself no end of harm trying to do the double notes and repeated chords with fixation and stiffness.

At the outset, I tried to get him to spend equal time between learning to play grade 1 exam pieces well and "having a go" at more difficult music that he liked. While much of this was done very well considering, he never learned to do ANYTHING truly well. He just wouldn't polish the easier pieces (as he was perfectly capable of doing) but kept trying more difficult stuff without mastering the basic pieces. I tried getting him to balance his attentions, and showed him exactly how to master easier things, but he just didn't do it. In the end he basically stopped practising the easier pieces altogther but just had a go at what seemed to be a new piece every week and finally gave up. In the end, his sheer enthusiasm and desire to play things he was not prepared for had effectively killed his enthusiasm. He never directed it into anything useful or progressive.

I regret not being more upfront with him in the first place, as he could have done very well. However, he was lost in the delusion that you can just go straight into hard stuff. Humoring this didn't help at all-quite the opposite. I should have be far more direct about telling him what he needed to be doing, if he was serious about getting anywhere. This is a very typical thing these days. especially with youtube "tutorials" for people who think they can sidestep basic skills by watching someone play notes slowly, rather than learning to read. A lot of people just don't understand what it takes to learn to play well and humoring their expectation doesn't open their eyes.

[nyiregyhazi]

the original post
Just in case the word "performer" is still being missed.

Note the point about teaching too. It implies expectation of earning money. Unless I'm grossly misreading between the lines, it suggests that not only does the poster expect to become a concert pianist, but they are hoping to earn a living a musician who does not do any teaching.

Anyone can perform in some kind of concert somewhere. To refer to being a concert pianist does not suggest wondering whether it's possible to play in a small student concert somewhere. It suggest unjustifiably premature questions of the kind that it is cruel to even humour.

[keypeg]

The goal to play well - maybe even to be a performer - is followed by "How do I get there?"  And that, in turn, is followed by the simple stuff that is the foundation of the big goals.  The teacher is the one to create that link.

This is one reason why I dislike the advice I see given to people thinking of taking up the piano. They are supposed to tell a prospective teacher what their "goals" are in terms to what pieces they'd like to learn to play.  That is no kind of goal.  It leads people in the wrong direction.  Your goal is to get technique and knowledge of music and learn to apply them.  If teachers refer to pieces or performance as goals, then they are not leading their students in the right direction.  If a student does understand, then he or she can start working properly.  It is not "delusion".  It is lack of knowledge.

[faa2010]

Personally, I had the opposite experience from this approach. I had an absolute beginner who was determined to do the chopin C minor nocturne. He did very well, considering, with the opening. However, he also wanted to try the recap and did himself no end of harm trying to do the double notes and repeated chords with fixation and stiffness.

At the outset, I tried to get him to spend equal time between learning to play grade 1 exam pieces well and "having a go" at more difficult music that he liked. While much of this was done very well considering, he never learned to do ANYTHING truly well. He just wouldn't polish the easier pieces (as he was perfectly capable of doing) but kept trying more difficult stuff without mastering the basic pieces. I tried getting him to balance his attentions, and showed him exactly how to master easier things, but he just didn't do it. In the end he basically stopped practising the easier pieces altogther but just had a go at what seemed to be a new piece every week and finally gave up. In the end, his sheer enthusiasm and desire to play things he was not prepared for had effectively killed his enthusiasm. He never directed it into anything useful or progressive.

I regret not being more upfront with him in the first place, as he could have done very well. However, he was lost in the delusion that you can just go straight into hard stuff. Humoring this didn't help at all-quite the opposite. I should have be far more direct about telling him what he needed to be doing, if he was serious about getting anywhere. This is a very typical thing these days. especially with youtube "tutorials" for people who think they can sidestep basic skills by watching someone play notes slowly, rather than learning to read. A lot of people just don't understand what it takes to learn to play well and humoring their expectation doesn't open their eyes.

How old was your student?

I understand your point about how one wants to go directly to the hard stuff without knowing the basic stuff.  I am not a piano or music teacher, but I have been a teacher.

Our problem as human beings is that we want to know everything in a fast and easy way.  This could be because when we are children we get used to do everything without big effort, we skip many steps and other parts of the learning process in order to achieve our goal.  Even imitating someone or something can be easier during that part of our lifes.  Nurturing this habit might turn us impatient and stubborn when it is about learning new things.

If it makes you feel better, you haven't failed as a teacher.  You taught him what you know, introduced him to the basics, and adjusted your teachings to his needs.  The delusional part came from himself.  Getting down-earthed has to be learnt by oneself as part of the life lessons.

[keypeg]

The very first thing we need to know is how learning music works.  If nobody ever explains it, then we will be aiming for the wrong things.  Nor is it easy for that idea to be communicated.  IF you know that a goal toward complex music is actually a goal of acquiring small skills, then everything works hand in hand.

[lostinidlewonder]

Personally, I had the opposite experience from this approach.

I don't see what the opposite of "Try for themselves then find out it is too hard and give up or work really hard with the difficulties" is. There is nothing wrong with having students work on music that is too difficult for them, it just doesn't become their main focus. If it becomes their main focus then you as a teacher need to guide them through the entire process, if they do not want to listen to advice then they shouldn't be having a teacher, it seems to me very peculiar that a student wants to learn something difficult but never seriously tries to master difficult pieces let alone easier ones. You are not going to come across many students like this.

[m1469]

Most of these expressions seem like reasonable responses, reactions, and opinions to me, even if opposing.  Also very reasonable: "Yes" "No" and "Maybe"  

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't see what the opposite of "Try for themselves then find out it is too hard and give up or work really hard with the difficulties" is. There is nothing wrong with having students work on music that is too difficult for them, it just doesn't become their main focus. If it becomes their main focus then you as a teacher need to guide them through the entire process, if they do not want to listen to advice then they shouldn't be having a teacher, it seems to me very peculiar that a student wants to learn something difficult but never seriously tries to master difficult pieces let alone easier ones. You are not going to come across many students like this.

I said I had the "opposite experience" when using THAT approach- I didn't say anything about the opposite of the approach. The student did himself very little good from trying overly hard pieces and never got in the habit of actually mastering anything- because he was too busy with difficult pieces and did not concentrate on the more managable pieces that he needed to be developing technique through. Letting him work on these things only served to distract from what he needed to do to get anywhere.

I don't think it is unusual at all, by the way. I had another student who could play Rondo a la Turk reasonably well for someone who could not read music and had not been taught to play. However, his fingerings were terrible, it was completely uneven etc. and basically horrible all round  (not that I'd have phrase it that way, of course). When I tried to get him going with reading and simple pieces, he never put any real effort in. If he wasn't getting something difficult enough to be  of immediate interest (not that he could play the easier pieces either) , he wasn't motivated to do any work. He gave up within a few months, after making no progress at all. Unfortunately, his interest was basically motivated by expectation of being able to play hard pieces straight off and without putting any effort in.

These things are extremely common these days. A lot of people use these stupid youtube "tutorials" to do a bad job of faking hard pieces, as their entry to playing the piano. Unfortunately, this gives them nothing but false ideas about piano playing (making them think hard pieces are only as hard as knowing what order to press notes in) and makes the standard act of building foundation skills look uninteresting by comparison. After the immediate glory of playing a hard piece appallingly badly (without any idea about how badly it is done, or how unhealthy they style of movement is), it's very hard to stay interested.

[nyiregyhazi]

The very first thing we need to know is how learning music works.  If nobody ever explains it, then we will be aiming for the wrong things.  Nor is it easy for that idea to be communicated.  IF you know that a goal toward complex music is actually a goal of acquiring small skills, then everything works hand in hand.

The problem is when students skip to hard things and play them very badly, but don't understand how badly they are doing. If you don't make them realise that fact, they don't believe that it's necessary to build up a stage at a time. They think they can skip right into the big stuff. But if you convey how poorly they are actually doing, you're being negative.

There's no simple answer when such a situation arises. It's why the best kind of a student to teach is a person with humility- not someone who comes with blind optimism and expectation. There's a fine line between humility and self-limiting negativity, but a sense of humility is an extremely important quality. Otherwise you can explain the step-by-step procedures all you like, without the student working accordingly.

[chidzuyo]

What is your objective in becoming a concert pianist? Is it for the love of music, the fame, the prestige? If you love music, and want to share your music with others, is a concert pianist the only way to do so?

If you truly like to play the piano, don't stop at becoming a concert pianist, aim to become the best pianist in the world.

[lostinidlewonder]

I said I had the "opposite experience" when using THAT approach- I didn't say anything about the opposite of the approach.

Opposite approach, opposite experience? The approach is caused by experience and the experience is put into action by the approach they are mutually dependant on one another. But anyway that will tangent discussion into uselessness. I'll just accept that you wanted to say that you had a different experience, perhaps the word OPPOSITE was not the best to use. Nevertheless the student you are describing is not a common student. If you don't think it is unusual then you must be surrounded by peculiar music students, poor you.

These things are extremely common these days.

I have not seen this attitude common amongst the hundreds of music students I teach yearly. Of course that is not to say you might exist in a small unusual pocket, but it certainly is not the norm from where I stand. I don't meet delusional students who merely play difficult pieces and do so ham fistedly, if they do this then that is fine but it is not a main focus of their study, if you as a teacher still cannot direct their path to something more ordinary then they probably should not be having a teacher.

[nyiregyhazi]

Opposite approach, opposite experience? The approach is caused by experience and the experience is put into action by the approach they are mutually dependant on one another. But anyway that will tangent discussion into uselessness. I'll just accept that you wanted to say that you had a different experience, perhaps the word OPPOSITE was not the best to use.

The definition of "opposite" works just fine, thanks. Your experience (of an approach that was not portrayed as being opposite to yours, but as the very same) was that they realised if thing were too hard for them, but were often accelerated by trying difficult pieces. I experienced the opposite result from the approach- which is both that they did not realise things were too hard for them and that they actively slowed down their rate of progress (both by distracting themselves from more important work and playing difficult things with poor technique). There are times when letting a student have a go at more difficult pieces is great, but trying to let them find out for themselves when it isn't didn't do any good. A student may realise or they may not. The less foundation they have and the more expectations they have, the less likely they are to realise when they are not up to something they would like to try.

I have not seen this attitude common amongst the hundreds of music students I teach yearly. Of course that is not to say you might exist in a small unusual pocket, but it certainly is not the norm from where I stand.

Do you work with many beginners? I'm not saying anything about this being the norm. However, such students are far from rare. It's especially common if a student has learned to play a few pieces on their own, before starting. Unfortunately, learning to punch out a famous tune (with no idea about what is needed beyond hitting the right notes) can actually provide a false sense of expectation that perhaps makes the student feel that learning more simple tunes properly is beneath them. Sometimes a slight head-start is the worst thing a beginner student can have.

[jesc]

Most of these expressions seem like reasonable responses, reactions, and opinions to me, even if opposing.  Also very reasonable: "Yes" "No" and "Maybe"  

This was supposed to be a fitting closure to this thread.

[lostinidlewonder]

This was supposed to be a fitting closure to this thread.

I agree its just carrying on into uselessness now.

[keypeg]

The problem is when students skip to hard things and play them very badly, but don't understand how badly they are doing. If you don't make them realise that fact, they don't believe that it's necessary to build up a stage at a time. They think they can skip right into the big stuff. But if you convey how poorly they are actually doing, you're being negative.

You are putting the cart before the horse, and surprisingly, while quoting what I wrote: "The very first thing we need to know is how learning music works.  If nobody ever explains it, then we will be aiming for the wrong things. ... "  Is it a matter of humility (focus on the person) or a matter of understanding how things work (focus on the task)?

[keypeg]

Very often when an adult comes into a forum and asks advice about starting piano lessons, many teachers come on and tell them to say what pieces they want to play, or ask them their "goals" in terms of what pieces they want to play.  I often come in and try to redirect because I was once a beginning adult student.  The goal is NOT to play pieces.  The goal is to acquire skills.

Teachers know what this involves.  You may give pieces but your eye is on the skills you want to teach through those pieces.  It might be recognizing notes, sitting and moving properly, getting an even controlled touch, getting rhythm under control.  It is not useful if only you know these are the goals, because your student has to be focusing on those goals in practicing.  If the student knows these are the goals, and that they will lead to reaching those pieces then he is more likely to comply than if he doesn't know it.  Nor can you assume that he will know it.  What is obvious to you as a teacher is not obvious to a new student.

If your student is operating on a plane that involves pieces and how well he can play them, and you as teacher also operate on that plane (those pieces are too hard for you and you cannot play them well), then you have not helped make that transition.  As long as the mindset stays with pieces, which are not the real goal, nothing gets fixed.

[nyiregyhazi]

You are putting the cart before the horse, and surprisingly, while quoting what I wrote: "The very first thing we need to know is how learning music works.  If nobody ever explains it, then we will be aiming for the wrong things. ... "  Is it a matter of humility (focus on the person) or a matter of understanding how things work (focus on the task)?

The point is, I DID explain- but with the cart already in place before the horse there was nothing I could do to rectify the situation. In one case, simply by allowing the student to continue with more difficult pieces, they devoted all their attention to that and did very little at all on the easier pieces I asked them to balance with. In the other case, I brought them back to some simple basics (coupled with extensive explanations as to why) which they never got the hang of or showed any real evidence of working at. Once a person has a taster of thinking that they can play the piano (by scraping through a hard piece very badly) it's very hard to bring them to such basics as reading and counting etc. Psychologically, I suspect that they don't want the delusion to be broken- by being confronted with the fact that they have to work hard with to get somewhere with easy pieces. So instead they just plough on with something difficult, that gives them the illusion of achievement.

[nyiregyhazi]

Very often when an adult comes into a forum and asks advice about starting piano lessons, many teachers come on and tell them to say what pieces they want to play, or ask them their "goals" in terms of what pieces they want to play.  I often come in and try to redirect because I was once a beginning adult student.  The goal is NOT to play pieces.  The goal is to acquire skills.

Yes- but when done properly these are synonymous. Showing a student which notes to play, so they don't have to bother reading them for themselves, is a disastrous approach (even though it can provide a quick way to have a piece learned). However, if pieces are not being mastered, skills are certainly not being adequately acquired. This is where many students fall down. Many do not have the patience to master things that are perceived as being "easy"- hence they do not acquire the skills. Step by step learning involves mastery of successively hard pieces. The fact that difficult pieces cannot yet be mastered is exactly why they are such a bad idea.

If your student is operating on a plane that involves pieces and how well he can play them, and you as teacher also operate on that plane (those pieces are too hard for you and you cannot play them well), then you have not helped make that transition.  As long as the mindset stays with pieces, which are not the real goal, nothing gets fixed.

This doesn't make any sense. The point is that they need to learn pieces that are both in their grasp and which can be mastered- not that goals should lie outside of mastering pieces. This kind of thinking is what fools people into thinking they are getting somewhere, when they attempt difficult pieces. Some additional work may be devoted to long-term challenges, but not things that are ludicrously out of their reach and hence harmful to technical development. Learning manageable pieces to a proper standard is exactly how a pianist progresses. If that's not happening, serious questions are raised about what "skills" are being learned- if they are not good enough to deal with that which is being worked upon, they are not transferable skills.

You speak a lot about pigeon-holing and making assumptions, but it strikes me that you readily make such assumptions yourself- wanting to believe that various situations are likely to be similar to your own. Unfortunately, there are some students who just do not respond to efforts to convey the nature of how progress can be made. I'm not sure if there's necessarily any approach that is likely to succeed with this type of mindset- but fuelling the delusion that struggling through hard pieces will lead to progress is certainly not one that will help. As long as a student believes they're actually doing a good job with something way beyond their means, it's impossible to bring them to reality, or to persuade them to focus on learning the basics. In some situations, the only hope is to convey that it's not working but bring them back to something positive by illustrating what they should be doing and why. The problem is that if the student doesn't respond to that, by putting their focus into easier pieces and smaller goals, there's little that can help them.

[keypeg]

Niyereghazi, I hear you.  I am aware of that mindset.  What I wrote is an If with a capital "I".  If a student has the wrong mindset, it will hardly work, and if he or she gets that mindset then it probably will work.  The big question is how to get that mindset.  It is a lack of understanding, and a wrong understanding of how things work.  As you say, it doesn't help when the Internet sites and various books and people giving false promises tell lies for the sake of profit.  I've managed to help a couple of people by talking it through over days, and by having them try certain things which brings to light new experiences.  Because I am a fellow student I may be more on a same wave length.  Some people managed to cross that bridge.  I was lucky that in my first years I encountered students more advanced than myself, and a professional musician taking up a new instrument late in life, and so I got the perspective through them.  Additionally, I was already geared that way, but I learned a thing or two about practising. 

The big thing seems to be to make that leap in how you understand things.  That seems to make all the difference.  But how to bring that about or get to it is another story.  You and I are probably aiming in the same direction.  I just don't like to use the word "delusion" because I like to aim for the positive.  It is not about playing easier or harder pieces.  It is about working toward the right goals.  When you have those goals, then the pieces define themselves.  How does one get someone to see the goals?

[nyiregyhazi]

I just don't like to use the word "delusion" because I like to aim for the positive.  It is not about playing easier or harder pieces.  It is about working toward the right goals.  When you have those goals, then the pieces define themselves.  How does one get someone to see the goals?

When talking to a student, I'd never use the word delusion. However, I think a teacher must recognise the situations where that is exactly what is going on and try to take steps to illustrate the reality of the situation (in as a positive a way as possible). To directly inform a student that they are delusional (rather than go about it sensitively) would be terrible behaviour, but to allow them to harbour implausible expectations (when they are clearly not on track for realising their expecations) is little better. Those who expect to play well can sometimes be steered on track (if they're willing to follow advice) but those who expect greater things still need to be forced to start with realistic goals- and made to understand if they are meeting them.

[keypeg]

I'd say real goals rather than realistic.  A real goal is to be able to have control of the timing of your notes, getting an even or controlled touch, knowing your notes and chords.  "Realistic" goes more in the direction of the level and type of pieces you can play, which stays in the rhealm of pieces rather than skills, and also breeds resistance or fear.  I envision a mind shift.  What do you think?

[nyiregyhazi]

I'd say real goals rather than realistic.  A real goal is to be able to have control of the timing of your notes, getting an even or controlled touch, knowing your notes and chords.  "Realistic" goes more in the direction of the level and type of pieces you can play, which stays in the rhealm of pieces rather than skills, and also breeds resistance or fear.  I envision a mind shift.  What do you think?

I don't personally draw any notable distinction between the definition of "real" and "realistic". Technically any goal can be defined as "real", whereas only goals that might be fulfilled can be deemed "realistic". The word conveys the meaning much more accurately. However, I don't see any notable significance in a minor linguistic issue, anyway. The point is quite simply that they need to be goals that can be reached. In that respect, it's absolute right for a person to have a sense of the level of pieces that they can reasonably expect to master (rather than merely "have a go" at). To be aware that you're not ready for a Liszt Transcendental Etude does not mean "fear". It means living in the real world (for all but those who have already mastered progressively difficult works that would prepare them suitably). Pragmatism and fear are totally different qualities.

Can you clarify what you mean by learning skills rather than pieces? I must say that I find this very odd. If pieces are not being mastered, how can it reasonably be said that skills are being learned? Failing to master pieces is the classic symptom of aiming too high, rather than towards realistic goals. If pieces are not being mastered, there's something badly wrong. To suggest that it's not about mastering pieces seems to be promoting the very attitude that has pianists punching above their weight instead of getting on with learning how to play the instrument. Progress comes from genuinely mastering successively hard pieces- not from getting them "almost there". If having a go at a difficult piece is supposed to provide skills, rather than a mastered piece (even if that takes months of slow work first) I would have to ask serious questions about what "skills" are actually being learned. Unless the end product amounts to actually being able to play the piece with assurance (even if under-tempo), useful skills have will not have been acquired on the way.