Scriabin Etude d#m op8n12 performance practices LH timing question

[49410enrique]

hey all quick question i'd like to pose to help me make sure i am not learning this 'incorrectly' and thus won't want to lose time unlearning and relearning the right way later on. I am on break from lessons till nxt semester for a few week so i could not pose the question to my instructor,

referencing the attached score which is the edition i am working out of, true full measure 4 (or the 2nd measure of the 2nd page) and other places like it on down the line,  i am currently working to make sure that i play the rh f#4 b natural 4 and f#5 on the down beat with the d#2 and, catching it with the pedal and quickly striking the g# 3 just after the beat since I do not have the stretch to just hit it manually. this seems to me the best solution since i can reach the 10th in measure two (page 1 2nd full measure). this seems to preserve the continuity of the technical approach to this issue.

my question, alternatives i have also played with but don't like as much is to hit the d# either on the down beat catch with the pedal and play the RH with the g#3 just after the beat or to hit the d# just before the down beat and again hit the RH w te g# on the downbeat (vs a little late).  

am i correct in assuming the 2nd two approaches just outlines above are the less correct ways to go about it and for rythmic integrity i should just let the g#3 ring every so slightly late to allow the bass (d#2) and RH melody voices to sing on the downbeat?

Thanks and sorry if i didn't explain clearly enough i tried to be as exact as possible.

[nyiregyhazi]

I can't imagine it any other way than with the bass note before the beat and then the hands landing together. There's far too much going on within the first beat otherwise, which can only detract from the sustain of the long melodic note (which is typically killed by pianists, even when they aren't having to hurry to fit the notes in) I think it would sound pretty terrible to be scrabbling to get that note in and then having to catch up over the rest of the triplet. As an upbeat, it is hidden away under the dotted rhythm.

[49410enrique]

I can't imagine it any other way than with the bass note before the beat and then the hands landing together. There's far too much going on within the first beat otherwise, which can only detract from the sustain of the long melodic note (which is typically killed by pianists, even when they aren't having to hurry to fit the notes in) I think it would sound pretty terrible to be scrabbling to get that note in and then having to catch up over the rest of the triplet. As an upbeat, it is hidden away under the dotted rhythm.

thanks ever so much! and wow you're absolutely right on it messing with flow/pulse of the triplet.  i'll make the appropriate change to my approach .

also to make sure i'm not mis-reading, " As an upbeat, it is hidden away under the dotted rhythm." does this statement suggest the d#2 play with the f# octave (3-4) as part the 4th 16th note subdivision  of beat 4 in measure 3?

sorry if this is terribly confusing, i was assuming the d# would 'behave' like a grace note rythmically and play just after the octave but before the downbeat.

my sincerest thanks again this really does help me immensely over the next few weeks since i hate to show up to a lesson without something memorized so i want to ensure i don't commit the error to memory.

[nyiregyhazi]

also to make sure i'm not mis-reading, " As an upbeat, it is hidden away under the dotted rhythm." does this statement suggest the d#2 play with the f# octave (3-4) as part the 4th 16th note subdivision  of beat 4 in measure 3?

I don't mean any particular synchronisation. It's just that because there's more going on in the right hand at that time, it's less obstrusive to fit an extra note somewhere when the right hand is doing more too.  If anything, having many notes together there provides a useful swell towards a sense of arrival on the first beat. Also, having to catch the bass in the pedal means you already have resonance accumulating before the arrival, rather than a stark landing on the beat. The same trick is very useful when you get the two l.h. octaves going across the barline. I'd personally recommend catching both the A sharp and D sharp octaves in a single pedal, rather than making a change on the beat.

I recorded this myself a few years ago by the way:

[49410enrique]

I don't mean any particular synchronisation. It's just that because there's more going on in the right hand at that time, it's less obstrusive to fit an extra note somewhere when the right hand is doing more too.  If anything, having many notes together there provides a useful swell towards a sense of arrival on the first beat. Also, having to catch the bass in the pedal means you already have resonance accumulating before the arrival, rather than a stark landing on the beat. The same trick is very useful when you get the two l.h. octaves going across the barline. I'd personally recommend catching both the A sharp and D sharp octaves in a single pedal, rather than making a change on the beat.

I recorded this myself a few years ago by the way:

that makes sense thank you for the time you took to explain this.  hopefully the post will help others in the future. i enjoyed your recording. very moving and inspirational!

[pytheamateur]

Can you reach the D sharp and G sharp with your left hand in the first crochet of bar 4?  If you can I envy you.  This is what's stopped me from trying to learn this beautiful piece.  I suppose you could always spread the two notes, but I don't think the effect is as good.

Maybe manufacturuers of adult sex toys should consider using their existing technology to make an extension that pianists can slip on to their pinky.

[49410enrique]

Can you reach the D sharp and G sharp with your left hand in the first crochet of bar 4?  If you can I envy you.  This is what's stopped me from trying to learn this beautiful piece.  I suppose you could always spread the two notes, but I don't think the effect is as good.

Maybe manufacturuers of adult sex toys should consider using their existing technology to make an extension that pianists can slip on to their pinky.

nope don't have that kind of spread, i don't think i was there the day they handed those out as factory options, hence the question posed on creatively maneuvering the lh part.  i was on the right track but nyiregyhazi was very helpful in keeping me from  getting too deep into an ineffective approach to those 11ths.  

i wouldn't let it discourage you from working the etude up there are some very good learning opportunities in it especially with all the typically scriabin finger interlocking and jumping voices from lh into the rh areas and back. among all the other fun challenges the exercise poses.  also getting good at reading is this key has helped my with reading through other uncommon modulations and keys in other works (example the gottschalk i'm working up pdf attached see key change from page 7 to pg 8 of the file).

i wonder if you used at prosthesis at a competiton if you'd be booted for cheating, is like performance enhancing drugs in sport?

[nyiregyhazi]

Can you reach the D sharp and G sharp with your left hand in the first crochet of bar 4?

? That's what we were talking about- how to spread it rather than strike it. I can reach some 11ths, but certainly couldn't strike this one. One thing I forgot to add is that the trick is not to let go of the B, until you've played the G sharp. Then it's not a jump but a rather simple rocking motion If you use that as a pivot, you have two very regular intervals to cover . Having a big hand probably does make it a fair bit easier for me, but there's no reason why smaller hands can't do it.

[pytheamateur]

? That's what we were talking about- how to spread it rather than strike it. I can reach some 11ths, but certainly couldn't strike this one. One thing I forgot to add is that the trick is not to let go of the B, until you've played the G sharp. Then it's not a jump but a rather simple rocking motion If you use that as a pivot, you have two very regular intervals to cover . Having a big hand probably does make it a fair bit easier for me, but there's no reason why smaller hands can't do it.

Thanks for your replies guys.  Yes, I should have read the posts more carefully.