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[keyboardclass]

Out of interest here's the first edition.  Notice how many fewer accents especially on the big chords.  I don't think Chopin wants them extra accented - it's beat 4 that has the big accent.

[costicina]

Well, my up-and-down wrist movement is a kind of counteraction to the erroneous precepts of my past teachers: they asked me to rise high the fingers, hitting loud the keys. Hand, wrist, forearm, body should stay absolutely still (they wanted me to keep a book under my armpit). That created insurmontable speed walls and many other problems, inducing me to quit for years.

When I tackled the Rev for the first time, I could barely reach the second page without stiffness and fatigue. Now, trying to keep  a "supple wrist", I can play it ten times in a row effortles.
And Chopin wanted those accents, for musical and technical reasons (after all, this is an Etude).
What I'm aiming at now is coniugating wrist supplenes with active fingers...

P.S. In my Rev thread I received a rude and unpleasant post by Pianoman53. Please, tell me sincerely if you too find annoying my way to present our (mine and my daughter's) videos and attempts....

Okay, a few things before I comment on the video?
What's up with all the "Im soooo sorry for sending yet another video!!". Either be sorry about it, and stop posting (In kindergarden we learn that saying "I'm sorry" means that you learn from your mistake, and will not repeat them), or you stop saying you're sorry. Everyone knows it's difficult, so you don't have to explain how much a "life long work" this is. (I may not agree on the term "life long", but that doesn't matter).

And I know it was a joke, but who says that her daughter pollutes the forum with her videos? If I'm not mistaken, you're her teacher, and therefore, it's just as much you're "fault" that she plays in whatever way she plays.
That's something that really annoys me. "Tiger mum" is one thing, cause, somehow, it works. But to just say "No sorry, my daughter sucks..." is just being a jerk.

[keyboardclass]

Now, trying to keep  a "supple wrist", I can play it ten times in a row effortles.

Exactly! 

And Chopin wanted those accents, for musical and technical reasons (after all, this is an Etude).

Chopin discovered using the arms for accents and he knew where he wanted them.

P.S. In my Rev thread I received a rude and unpleasant post by Pianoman53.

Yes, I thought he was quite rude (and non-sequitur) but then I'm just a pot....

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's my video of op 28 no 4 where I exaggerate the drop then flop principle in both hands.  The idea is keep the wrist up throughout the drop until the sound happens then flop.  Most start flopping before the sound which is a waste of energy.  

The whole thing is a waste of energy. It achieves nothing other than throwing your whole hand and wrist out of an alignment from which they could easily play the next chord. That is why you do not see anyone else using this movement in that Prelude. It's like constantly going down a slide and then having to climb up a ladder to get back where you started (and could more easily have stayed in the first place). Allowing gravity to carry you down is for free, but it means that you have to reposition yourself. This is certainly not for free- as it requires work to be done directly against gravity.

I use these exercises myself for some students who have severe tension problems, but they are only a preparatory exercise for combating severe problems. Ultimately, a good pianist never gets stiff enough to have any need to wipe the slate clean. It's learning not to get stiff in the first place that is the important thing- not an emergency movement that can only be employed in ultra-slow tempos. Just try flopping amidst the Grandioso repetitions of the Liszt sonata. A pianist who depends on the flop can forget about getting any benefit from it in passages where serious difficulties arise. In these passages, either you avoid stiffness in the first place or you become stiff. You can't suddenly flop your way out of accumulated tensions that are caused by poor technique. The real secrets lie totally elsewhere- not in coarsely abrupt relaxations that throw everything out of alignment and screw up the sense of connection to the keyboard. In difficult passages, wrist movements need to be extremely subtle and sensitively deployed to context. The flop is exclusively a foundation level exercise and an emergency technique. To make it anything more than that simply forgives the bad technique that makes it necessary.

[ajspiano]

Now, trying to keep  a "supple wrist", I can play it ten times in a row effortles.

I know we can all do this, or atleast can with practice and the development of a good technique.. but I find the fact that this is at all humanly possible to be just downright awesome.

The rev etude has approximately 2500 individual notes - at a key weight of 50g performing it 10 times means there is a minimum of 1.2 tonnes of downward force applied to the piano..

1. "YAY!" for the power and support that the whole body provides.
2. Anyone who thinks a rigid body/arm and active fingers will ever be capable of this has got some real issues.

[keyboardclass]

Yes and an extra "YAY!", ajs!  No, N. - as I said my vid's for demonstration purposes, where's yours?

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes and an extra "YAY!", ajs!  No, N. - as I said my vid's for demonstration, where's yours?

Why does something being for demonstration make it suitable to have an exceedingly inefficient quality of movement, that is of little use for regular playing? Demonstration purposes make it all the more important not to have a hand that slumps around in a counterproductive manner. The reference point of extreme relaxation is far better worked on outside of the context of a piece. Practising something so inappropriate as collapsing between every single chord of the Prelude (where comfortable stability is what is really needed) will simply inspire poor habits. If your video is supposed to demonstrate something meaningful, you ought to demonstrate what the final product would look like too and explain the differences. Otherwise you just encourage poor movement.

I am in the process of preparing a post that will show how to make quality contact to the keyboard in a way that frees up the arm without compromising quality of contact. I'll include some videos to illustrate how to achieve a relaxed arm coupled with a properly balanced and stable hand.

[nyiregyhazi]

The more I think about your description of an away from the piano motion the more I think it much be extremely subtle. Obviously we can not produce any sound unless some part of the playing apparatus goes down..  and the arm is controlled from a point away from the hand. Tiny arm movements at the control point can result is large effects on the hand and fingers.

Indeed, it's miniscule. Arguably it's only there to stop the arms pressing down, so the fingers have control over the sound.

I'd love to see a short video of what you mean, if thats at all possible - it would only have to be a few seconds long. I think I am using it myself, i get a feeling of slight feeling of upward lift in the playing of bars 21-22 here but I wonder if its really what you mean since I obviously confuse it a bit with kempfs performance..

I'll see if I can get a chance, but I'd say it will look very similar to what you do on most of the short-long units.

I will say that it is exceedingly rare that I apply deliberate downward force with my arm. Gravity is doing that job just fine.

The thing about what I'm talking about is that gravity doesn't have to provide any downward force either. I struggled with this concept for a long time, but if the arm does not move down, gravity is not providing any force or energy. However, the mass of the arm can stabilise activation from the hand. If this is done efficiently, it's so effortless that it can be perceived as if the arm were providing energy. The looseness creates a sense of involvement. However, there's no dropping or pressing at all- just a simple hand action. Gravity only stops the hand from being bounced away.

Free fall and deliberate downward force also look EXACTLY the same visually (except at the keybed i guess)..  they feel completely different though.

With what I'm talking about here, the arm would scarcely move at all- aside from a tiny upward movement at the wrist. However, it wouldn't be stiff.

Getting really technical and into trivial information here - as a free weight my forearm applies around 900g..  almost 4 times what I need to depress 5 keys in a chord.. However, that also assumes zero velocity. Given the rate of accelaration for gravity (9.8m/sec/sec?) even a free drop from a few centimeters above the keys should mean i'm applying a fast and enormously forceful amount of weight to the keys..  I'm not really sure given my lack of physics degree..

It gets somewhat problematic here. For the above to hold, firstly gravity would have to act to move the fingers straight down and the whole arm would have to be rigid. Strictly speaking, a free release provides relatively little tone- unless muscles are both steering and redirecting the drop and if the hand is either stiffening or doing its own movements. Assuming we don't want to brace the hand rigidly, it becomes rather problematic to put it all down to the gravity. It can't really be separated from the role of the hand.

Try resting one finger lightly over a key and genuinely letting go of your whole arm- but not with the intent of moving the key! Genuinely let go and observe what happens. You may find it hard to disengage your pianistic instincts, but when this is done literally (involving a collapsing wrist and allowing your shoulder to pull the forearm back towards you) you really don't get a very loud sound.

[keyboardclass]

I'll include some videos to illustrate how to achieve a relaxed arm coupled with a properly balanced and stable hand.

About time too!  As for the wall of words, I'll take it from whence it came.

[nyiregyhazi]

About time too!  As for the wall of words, I'll take it from whence it came.

This is the basic approach:

The only difference is that I'm going to specifically explain the slight finger action that maintains the posture of the hand, without it collapsing in the unwieldy fashion of your flops. Also, it's important to stress the feeling of maintaining length by hanging back- so no point in the arm is bunched up in a held or forward position. When you can feel how to perform these minute stabilising actions (rather than balance with generic hand stiffness), it's very easy to move the arm around in a way that frees up unwanted tensions.

[keyboardclass]

And your contributon?  Mad 'Frankie' Fraser just doesn't do it for me.

[nyiregyhazi]

And your contributon?  Mad 'Frankie' Fraser just doesn't do it for me.

The fine details are too important to be conveyed by a superficial summary. I'm in the process of writing up a post that first details the specific balancing activity of the fingers that permits optimal looseness of the arm (without either burdening the fingers or compromising their quality of contact with the piano). Only from there is it possible to understand the nature of balance in a meaningful way. When you are clear on what purpose activity serves and specifically where it is needed, you can learn to deploy the bare minimum. My post will provide a simple proof of what activities are needed and why- demonstrating how much easier this makes balance than when you pretend the finger can just rest inert. I'll post a link when my post is complete.

[keyboardclass]

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