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Topic: essential learning requirements for beginning students  (Read 5984 times)

Offline keyboardclass

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Re: essential learning requirements for beginning students
Reply #100 on: February 02, 2012, 06:54:10 AM
 ::)

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: essential learning requirements for beginning students
Reply #101 on: February 02, 2012, 08:22:20 PM
Unfortunately (for you) your use of my own words against me doesn't work.

You asked me what is my opinion so I gave it. My quote does not need to be proven. I have the right to post my opinion and leave it as that. I have no need to post a case study of all my hundreds of young students in the past 20 odd years to prove the point.

The person who posted that video also asked for an opinion, not asking for evidence to prove a stance.

You however quoted me and said I was mistaken. So the onus is on you to prove how I am mistaken otherwise your critique lacks anything constructive. The reason why I suggested you to stop quoting me and debating (in several threads now), just speak on your own terms.



I have stated my points- explicitly detailing my reasons and evidence upon which my disagreement was founded. Denying their existence will not change a thing and neither will trying to argue against anybody's right to follow up on your dismissal of a teacher's methods. The points I made remain present in the thread, whether you acknowledge them or not. If you are not going to address them directly or detail specifically why you feel they miss the mark, there is no scope for discussion here.

Your next post is a free shot, so if you wish to indulge in more off-topic personal attacks, be my guest. I have no interest in defending my right to defend another teacher's methods against a dismissive attack. I've made my points. If you are not willing to follow up on them, I'll simply leave them as they stand.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: essential learning requirements for beginning students
Reply #102 on: February 02, 2012, 08:37:48 PM
The reason why I suggested you to stop quoting me and debating (in several threads now), just speak on your own terms.

Just one final point- if you wish to be exempted from the most standard protocols of internet forums, I suggest you consider setting up a special forum of your own. If you wish to air opinions in a public forum, you must accept that they may be freely quoted for the purposes of counterarguments- especially when those opinions are totally dismissive of someone's work. Forums are places for free discussion- not for people to write critiques that are exempted from being freely discussed. Criticism is not exempt from being criticised.

Offline keyboardclass

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Offline pianoplayjl

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Re: essential learning requirements for beginning students
Reply #104 on: February 02, 2012, 09:01:37 PM
I have stated my points- explicitly detailing my reasons and evidence upon which my disagreement was founded. Denying their existence will not change a thing and neither will trying to argue against anybody's right to follow up on your dismissal of a teacher's methods. The points I made remain present in the thread, whether you acknowledge them or not. If you are not going to address them directly or detail specifically why you feel they miss the mark, there is no scope for discussion here.

Your next post is a free shot, so if you wish to indulge in more off-topic personal attacks, be my guest. I have no interest in defending my right to defend another teacher's methods against a dismissive attack. I've made my points. If you are not willing to follow up on them, I'll simply leave them as they stand.

While I appreciate your expert feedback and advice, you tend to keep arguing until you have the final word (usually). And capable  of going off topic too. You are also indulging in off topic attacks by responding back via posting (me too).



WHat does that mean?
JL
Funny? How? How am I funny?

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: essential learning requirements for beginning students
Reply #105 on: February 02, 2012, 09:10:57 PM
While I appreciate your expert feedback and advice, you tend to keep arguing until you have the final word (usually). And capable  of going off topic too. You are also indulging in off topic attacks by responding back via posting (me too).

I only respond if I feel there's a relevant point to be made. I'm not going to respond to any further posts from the poster who wishes his posts to be off-limits, as I've made my points and there is nothing more to be added- unless he follows up on those points, to further discussion. Assuming he doesn't, I have no interest in the final word on the matter.

I'm sorry if you took my posts as an attack, but they were an expression of disagreement supported by direct reasoning. I don't personally view as that as an attack.

Offline pianoplayjl

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Re: essential learning requirements for beginning students
Reply #106 on: February 03, 2012, 12:21:39 AM
I'm sorry if you took my posts as an attack, but they were an expression of disagreement supported by direct reasoning. I don't personally view as that as an attack.

I'm sorry to be going off topic...
I didn't take your posts as an attack, but I just thought sometimes your debates get a bit passionate to the point of near arguement. You don't have to respond to this if you don't want to.

JL
Funny? How? How am I funny?

Offline keypeg

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Re: essential learning requirements for beginning students
Reply #107 on: February 03, 2012, 08:18:36 PM
On the subject of a teacher guiding a student's movements by actually moving the hand for the student, my own opinion is that there is no right or wrong because it depends on the student, time, and circumstance.  I think that it is wrong to consider any single approach as being "the right one".  There is also a danger that if we as students had a bad experience with one approach to then write it off forever regardless of who is doing it how.  An equal danger is that if as students we struggled with something major, and then were given a radically new approach that fixed it, we then see that new approach as the Alpha and Omega.

I have encountered various approaches as a student, and as a very late starter was an age to be aware of what was happening.  Physical manipulation happened once in a good context, where as a beginner something was corrected with a gentle supporting nudge while I continued playing.  That correction became an unconscious part of my playing and served me well.  On other occasions, however, I misunderstood the physical promptings and they created problems.  The advantage to unconsciously absorbing it is that you are not self-conscious, thus not inhibited or stiff.  The disadvantage is that if you ever lose it, you don't know how to get it back because you don't know how you got there or what "it" was.

I've been given demonstrations to imitate, and mostly they confused me.  I could not translate what the other person was doing observed from the outside, and translate it into how I would look from the outside.  Otoh, if my teacher was playing or even if I was watching a performer, I sometimes could feel inside my body what they were doing, and then something positive happened.

Explanations and descriptions sometimes helped.  But mostly only if they were tagged on to something I was seeing or feeling, to complete it or to make sense of something.  I could not do much with descriptions of things.  They confused me too.  If, however, I was to produce a certain kind of sound and had roughly the right direction in technique, then I would keep juggling until I had the right sound, and to reach it, I had to come to the right motion and form.  Then after the fact I'd see that it also looked rather "right".

Sometimes I was asked to do certain things, and when I did them, I ended up having the right motions and musical effect as a by-product.  If I had tried to get there directly I couldn't have, because it was subtle.

Any of the things I have listed worked some of the time, and messed me up at other times.  Each seemed to be appropriate in a given circumstance, or when I was at a particular stage, but not in another.

The one negative thing I encountered was if a teacher was inflexible and rigid, believing in one and only one approach.  The student seems to not exist as the person who is at this stage, has these strengths, dealing with these specific things in the music.  It is as if student, music, and problem all have to bend to the theory of how teaching ought to happen and how it ought to work.
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