Technique

[ajspiano]

I'm still looking fror the clip I mentioned and came across this.....anyone know why this guy doesn't know what hes doing ?   I will continue to look for the one mentioned

I didnt watch the whole thing (only a few seconds infact) so i'll reserve final judgement..

but.. (and only as a start)

he looked as if he was stretching his hand out over the width of the octave then driving power to each note exclusively with his fingers.. The fact that this was aimed at university level students is terrifying and appears like an injury waiting to happen.

[technique]

Duplicate mistake

[technique]

I didnt watch the whole thing (only a few seconds infact) so i'll reserve final judgement..

but.. (and only as a start)

he looked as if he was stretching his hand out over the width of the octave then driving power to each note exclusively with his fingers.. The fact that this was aimed at university level students is terrifying and appears like an injury waiting to happen.

Exactly and I will add the specifics here so that people can challenge what were saying and we can find out if improper teaching is an epidemic in todays world.

First... I noticed that every Tom, D and harry is on line with utubes trying to suggest how to do scales.  Its enough to drive anyone batty and I as well had to force myself to watch this boring , evasive constantly interupted non-sense ( interupted by a pile of jargon to try and trick people
into suggesting he knows what hes talking about. I can't seem to find the video I was speaking about and will continue looking.

Now , anyone please feel free to correct the following.

Firstly hes suggesting the students learn fingering and discussing passing of the thumb relative to execution. So we know he is expecting the students to learn these specified arpeggios.

We also can assume that since hes taking so much time to explain fingering that this lesson is relatively a beginners aspproach to arpeggios. Firstly ...no one in there good thinking mind would group F major, B major, Fsharp major and F minor together in an intro to arpeggios....also in the same no one would start a beginner in scales with C major and or F major....why.....because the less black notes the more difficult due to distance and leverage in connecting when passing the thumb. With scales the first to learn proper position is B major, Fsharp and E both major....with arpeggios...( the last and should come only after an intro to diminished arpeggios...)   E, Fsharp minor, B major. That would be more then enough.

Notice this gentleman talks about the flappy "wing" elbow and then proceeds to almost knock the camera over every time he brings the thumb into play....I think its a real mess. Notice also and this is important , after he uses the thumb he quickly tucks it under.....this is wrong....the thumb does get tucked under but slowly and in one motion as the hand progress's....The thumb should be in the range and follow second third finger strike....so when it gets to third or forth strike it is indeed under and ready to strike as required. This approach eliminates the loss of stability in the whole hand and the jerky whippy action of the thumb which we clearly see.
A constant even movement of the thumb as it follows and obviously is in perfect position to be utilized when neccesaryThe thumb gradually moves in perfect even motion with each note struck in the scale.....also ....the bottom line is we are correct in critisism....all anyone has to do is look at the gentlemans elbows....hes got them going out like an airplane or something everytime that thumb and hand is caught way outta position

[keyboardclass]

I watched him play the first 4 notes of the F arp.  Christ!  He starts with the pinky sticking out.  And yes, he does what Liszt called 'making omlette' with his elbow.

As for leaving out the accents in op10 no1 - No way!  Its what it is a study in.  Chopin is showing off his discovery of the sixth finger - the arm.

[technique]

I watched him play the first 4 notes of the F arp.  Christ!  He starts with the pinky sticking out.  And yes, he does what Liszt called 'making omlette' with his elbow.

Exactly...can you try something and give me your opinion..?   (if you have time and no rush)

You know your etude?....I would be interested to find out if you find this approach more comfortable and offer yourself more stability in overall note striking.

RH only....very slow because its new....

a) strike the first note C, reach out with second finger to strike the G...once you strike the G
   bring the thumb up to the second finger with a very slow even motion ,keep second finger sustained. While doing so allow the hand to progress up , it will do this naturally as the thumb meets the second finger.
b) if above is on target your hand is perfectly in position to strike the C with the forth finger , strike this C while the G remans sustained with your thumb and second finger actually on the depressed G...( or very close  they should be together roughly)  now this would basically be in whole notes to get the idea in a less frigid hand while executing.
c) Once the C with the forth finger is struck , bring your thumb and second finger forward as the baby finger strikes the E...once the E is struck your whole hand should look small as now the thumb is all set to strike the C and repeat the octave passage....I believe this is correct and the similar or position should be the same on the way back...If you see the plan on the way up as described I think you can piece it together for the return appropiate positioning. I think you will feel a little independent work going on in your 4th finger which is perfect...the muscle effort is showing a specific arrea that is being strenghened.. play whole notes a few times and approach with all one motion....instead of dropping the thumb outright under the piano in a strained manner.....if your not interested thats fine....simply giving an opinion , thats all

[keyboardclass]

Haven't the time this morning - I'll check it out later.  I added to my post above:

As for leaving out the accents in op10 no1 - No way!  Its what it is a study in.  Chopin is showing off his discovery of the sixth finger - the arm.

Has your approach room for this?

[technique]

Keyboard....the real reason for the accent in the piece is to install an emphasis on the baby finger strike. The emphasis helps in releasing any possible aquired tension which may be in the hand at this point in hand position....The large concern is tension in the second finger...why..? for one reason its the local of stretching and pivot...just a quick reply but ....really the accent here is to unlock the rest of the hand....thats the idea going on here...its not there in this etude to make it sound pretty...its there as an aid and as well the inclination would be in muffleing this note..

Every time the accent is in play(baby finger) that second finger should be totally supple

[keyboardclass]

Hey, that's good.  But the relaxation after the fifth finger is a consequence of the tension required to play the tune it has - which is a simple but beautiful one.  You can't play that tune without the arm again, Chopin's discovery.

[technique]

Hey, that's good.  But the relaxation after the fifth finger is a consequence of the tension required to play the tune it has - which is a simple but beautiful one.  You can't play that tune without the arm again, Chopin's discovery.

ok ...I think weve dealt with this accent buisness

[keyboardclass]

No tune left behind!

[technique]

No tune left behind!

are you working on anything else in that volume...10-25

[keyboardclass]

op 10 5, op25 1

[technique]

op 10 5, op25 1

Good taste...tom another day I guess.

[keyboardclass]

Done my yoga for the day.  I'm off to work - piano teaching, god help them!  Laters.

[thalbergmad]

Please try not to cripple anyone with your silly methods

[nyiregyhazi]

Hey, that's good.  But the relaxation after the fifth finger is a consequence of the tension required to play the tune it has - which is a simple but beautiful one.  You can't play that tune without the arm again, Chopin's discovery.

You may not be able to do so, but that does not make it impossible. Your own limits do not speak for the limits of possibility- seeing as nobody would be playing the study up to tempo if they did. Although it's necessary to own an arm, it's not necessary to press with it. None of the Chopin quotes I've seen suggests that it is. He speaks of involving the arm- but that does mean to specifically press. I'll post a video shortly with accents but no active arm prods. To press is simply to perpetuate the incapability of the fifth.

[keyboardclass]

Please try not to cripple anyone with your silly methods

Well, I counted 'em in, and I counted 'em out - all survived the ordeal!

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's the first page:

If I can do it like that on my antique Bluthner (which requires severe exaggeration to achieve even mild tonal contrasts- due to be being rather subdued in tone and having an action that currently needs some serious tightening up) I don't see why it would terribly hard for a seasoned virtuoso on a decent concert grand.

Trying to use active arm pressure for the accent is totally unnecessary and it's certainly not impossible without it. What is impossible is to speed up if you're intent on thrusting the arm into the fifth finger, instead of training the finger to activate the key. One of the biggest issues with regard to speed is ensuring the fifth finger works enough to pull the thumb across. In a slow tempo you can survive without this action, but if you try to thrust the arm through the fifth, it just bogs everything down at faster speeds. It stops the thumb travelling to its next key- whereas direct finger action actively pulls the thumb into position.

[keyboardclass]

What a joke!  No accents at all.

[nyiregyhazi]

What a joke!  No accents at all.

Fine, I'll do it again on a Yamaha on Friday. My Bluthner has an extremely light sound that severely limits contrast, even when exaggerating. Regardless, I am awaiting your video of the same passage up to tempo. I'll settle for the first two bars even. You have insisted that you know the "correct" technique and it's time for you to prove that it works. A "joke" is when a person claims to have all the answers yet cannot even play a piece beyond half of the expected tempo.

[technique]

Ok very good and just on my way out.....you might want to slow down quite a bit , only had time to quickly jot down an opinion on the going up the keyboard....the issues going down differ.

(C,G,C,E)-gap-(C,G,C,E)-gap-(C,G,C,E)-gap-(C,G,C,E)-gap-(C,G,C,E)

This is from improper form from learning the piece and accelerating speed too quickly...

kinda like...aring...aring....aring...aring.....hope that helps.....a head on visual will allow for sure isolation..

decent work....bear that in mind

BTW....I'm enjoying the 1 or 2 crackpot posters....keep it up, its always refreshing to have something to flat out ignore

[nyiregyhazi]

Ok very good and just on my way out.....you might want to slow down quite a bit , only had time to quickly jot down an opinion on the going up the keyboard....the issues going down differ.

(C,G,C,E)-gap-(C,G,C,E)-gap-(C,G,C,E)-gap-(C,G,C,E)-gap-(C,G,C,E)

This is from improper form from learning the piece and accelerating speed too quickly...

kinda like...aring...aring....aring...aring.....hope that helps.....a head on visual will allow for sure isolation...
decent work....bear that in mind

BTW....I'm enjoying the 1 or 2 crackpot posters....keep it up, its always refreshing to have something to flat out ignore

could you just clarify- are you talking about legato sound, physical legato or timing, when you speak of a gap?

[ajspiano]

I'm not going to suggest anything technically here, i've been casually experimenting for quite some time and still not entirely settled on how to execute the nuances of this piece, and its not a piece where you can get away with a technique thats halfway there, it has to be impeccable... as with all chopin etudes ofcourse.

What I will say is that videos that are put up for the discussion of technique need to have clearly visible arms as well as hands. The video posted by nyiregyhazi is difficult to get a handle on because of the long sleeved black clothing and low light level..

I will post some footage of me playing a few bars at FULL SPEED (take note keyboard class ) later on.. seems like a good discussion.

[technique]

could you just clarify- are you talking about legato sound, physical legato or timing, when you speak of a gap?

Just getting in....my opinion is there are note value issues, because its a side view its difficult to see exactly whats going on. ( grouping as mentioned earlier) Plus the value issues going up as mentioned do not exist in the same seemingly flawed manner going back (the return), but have other inconsistenceys...

I listened more carefully and all the progressions upwards do not share the same exactness in value quality concern but, seem related to the root lack in the intended fluid one piece wave of sound, comprised of many ripples (notes)

As well pointed out in excellent observation just above, this piece like the whole volume is difficult, I will say one thing before leaving this clip....this piece in my opinion is one of the ones which is very straight forward in reasons why, it is very beneficial.

Heres a clip of an artist preforming piece at roughly the same speed....notice the one piece wave of sound travelling upwards... and then returning. Equality re note value made possible through reasonable form. The hand in this video also shows same fluid motion without any staggered abruptness. If you went on the metronome ....( each note-tick) slowly you would definately catch these issues....whats more important though is what caused them when the initial learning began, and eliminating these obstacles.  (below is roughly same speed as yourself in video

&feature=related

[ajspiano]

this piece in my opinion is one of the ones which is very straight forward in reasons why, it is very beneficial.

My immediate reaction to the piece (when I first saw the score i mean) was "Ha, arpeggios that are specifically bigger than the average reach, I bet chopin was thinking 'all those fools that try to stretch to notes and fail to support the technique with their arms are going to HURT themselves doing this'"

It simply can not be played at final speed and with expression unless you do it exactly the right way.

[technique]

My immediate reaction to the piece (when I first saw the score i mean) was "Ha, arpeggios that are specifically bigger than the average reach, I bet chopin was thinking 'all those fools that try to stretch to notes and fail to support the technique with their arms are going to HURT themselves doing this'"

It simply can not be played at final speed and with expression unless you do it exactly the right way.

Excellent point...lets break it down a little.

In totality the piece is very similar to the first group of hannon scales but, stretched out. I don't know for sure if one influenced the other however the almost identical mistake can be made in taking connectivity and note value for granted.

In this etude there is virtually no escape from recognizing the intended communication between the baby finger and the thumb, while of course keeping the hand somewhat supple. So....in each octave run...upwards the bridge which introduces the next octave comprises a communication between the baby finger and the thumb....that is the order of expected fingering....There fore we can easily assume that the sequence expected is deserving of a reasonable connectivity or legato which is consistent with all other note transgressions. If this is so, then 1-5 or thumb baby progression must be fluent, as fluent and discernable as all others.

The only way this can be so, is if the hand is visually smaller less spread out ,for this instance in execution. We cant see it in the top preformers due to camera angle and speed, but can be rest assured the 4-5-1  at the end of each group going upwards is, without any distortion, even and fluent, without any hand , wrist or arm jerking, and as coherent as ...mary had a little lamb...when practiced slowly,,,allowing the clarity to extend itself when the tempo permits.

The hand goes from open like an accordian and then gradually & evenly closes slightly at the 4-5-1....The only way to accomplish above is to allow the thumb to be in slow constant motion shadowing each note being struck. Doing so will place hand in perfect position gradually and naturally slightly closing or one could say less open for the final 4-5-1...(1 being the next starter C)...also its remarkable how natural it is to keep the hand supple and achieve perfect timing , connectivity, legato and individual effort with the weaker 5-4.
The above approach really does mimic the thumb behaviour in scalework perfectly.

The hannon scales...say the first one...After the thumb strike and the E has been struck....connectivity has been established...the thumb then at this moment should be on route passing under very slowly and gradually following the notes being struck....and returning with each progression.  Thats the value in the hannon....to establish this form neccesary for note striking stability just like the etude Opinion.   Any way until tomorow

[keyboardclass]

I will post some footage of me playing a few bars at FULL SPEED (take note keyboard class ) later on.. seems like a good discussion.

I'll be disappointed if we don't hear the glorious rising tune in the RH.

[ajspiano]

I'll be disappointed if we don't hear the glorious rising tune in the RH.

My performance of this etude is no where near what I would consider acceptable.

[keyboardclass]

Because it takes a special technique most think bringing out the accents impossible - especially since it's not been heard before (Garrick Ohlsson gets close).  Here's Fink's arm push which is the way to do it though there's more wrist movement than he seems to indicate and - minimal elbow action!? (that's not what I see in the diagram):

[technique]

Well, I'd like to watch that video clip

https://pianoeducation.org/scale06s.wmv


Prof from the university of New Mexico...try getting the metronome on this first C masjor scale....no can do....the other two are D flat and E major .  Its from his W page. We can right click and go to full view or slow speed....its very telling. Try the C major with a metronome...I tryed counting and theres just no way   Ju MbL  e D

[keyboardclass]

I've seen/heard worse playing.

[nyiregyhazi]

Because it takes a special technique most think bringing out the accents impossible - especially since it's not been heard before (Garrick Ohlsson gets close).  Here's Fink's arm push which is the way to do it though there's more wrist movement than he seems to indicate and - minimal elbow action!? (that's not what I see in the diagram):

Only you think people think it's impossible. The accents are only notated in a couple of bars and there is no basis for a definitive conclusion that he intended notably strong accents rather than marking of the pulse. They are also musically disagreeable for much of the piece. Also, considering that he asked many students to play it piano, not forte, it hardly suggests he wanted forceful accenting.

Regarding the arm thrusting, if you want to claim this is the only way to do it then start by proving it works at speed. It's very easy under tempo. Due to more space there is more time for an accent to register. Speed hides it in the other notes- so a slow execution is meaningless- particularly as it's also very to accent very strongly without arm pressure at slow speeds. Also, arm pressure interferes with free travel of the thumb- which equals disaster at tempo. If you think what you claim works then stop making claims and show us. Words are very cheap.

What you refer to it the most obvious and easy way to achieve accents. It's what virtually all instincts lead to. However, it's ultimately what stops pianists playing fast and with ease. Thrusting should only come after the hand has been trained properly, if at all.

[nyiregyhazi]

Just getting in....my opinion is there are note value issues, because its a side view its difficult to see exactly whats going on. ( grouping as mentioned earlier) Plus the value issues going up as mentioned do not exist in the same seemingly flawed manner going back (the return), but have other inconsistenceys...

I listened more carefully and all the progressions upwards do not share the same exactness in value quality concern but, seem related to the root lack in the intended fluid one piece wave of sound, comprised of many ripples (notes)

As well pointed out in excellent observation just above, this piece like the whole volume is difficult, I will say one thing before leaving this clip....this piece in my opinion is one of the ones which is very straight forward in reasons why, it is very beneficial.

Heres a clip of an artist preforming piece at roughly the same speed....notice the one piece wave of sound travelling upwards... and then returning. Equality re note value made possible through reasonable form. The hand in this video also shows same fluid motion without any staggered abruptness. If you went on the metronome ....( each note-tick) slowly you would definately catch these issues....whats more important though is what caused them when the initial learning began, and eliminating these obstacles.  (below is roughly same speed as yourself in video

&feature=related

I can't personally agree with a metronomic approach here. the groupings imply subdivisions from the 2nd semiquaver to the first of the next beat. you would never hear string players tearing through without reflecting natural subdivisions. It makes more sense to me to have a mild inequality that helps to avoid any sense of forcing into the thumb. I agree fully that it's necessary to strive for legato and this is something I've been continuing to work at. However feeling that the thumb should land metronomically does not strike me as being part of that.

[keyboardclass]

The accents are only notated in a couple of bars and there is no basis for a definitive conclusion that he intended notably strong accents rather than marking of the pulse.

As I've said - no tune left behind.  You obviously haven't the technique.

[nyiregyhazi]

As I've said - no tune left behind.  You obviously haven't the technique.

Sure and neither do Ashkenazy, Richter, Cziffra et all. Or rather, they do not have the intention to view four identical pitches ascending by octave as a "tune". They have more interest in the harmony and the passing notes that often occur between harmonic notes. Stop trolling and post a film of your magic method, if you want to keep arguing about this. You don't know the first thing about advanced technique- and assuming the secret to accentuation lies in arm thrusts is not an example of advanced technique. The only reason the accents are difficult at speed is because the other notes cover the stronger note. To make the accent heard, it's not about playing the main note louder so much as the necessity to keep the other note very significantly softer. You can bang the notes as hard as you like, but they will not register as accents unless you either play severely under tempo or make the other notes extremely quiet. If you try this at high speed, you'll quickly uncover the fact that what you describe does not work.

I'll upload a film on Friday to show how relatively easily the accents can be brought out- assuming a pianist actually WANTS to bang out of the same note four times per bar (rather than provide it with a slight sense of pulse). I'm no virtuoso and if I can do it there's no reason why a great pianist can't- if they wish to do so. I find it most distasteful to knock out four notes per bar (which can only be achieved at higher speeds by keeping the in between notes virtually inaudible) but it's really not a big problem to do so on a responsive piano.

[keyboardclass]

 

[starstruck5]

Reading this thread amost puts me off playing the piano at all -it seems like there are so many ways to mess up.  I can play the first page of the Chopin 0P 10/1 pretty accurately -but only as a warm up -and not caring too much about going deeply into uber piano mechanics or playing to impress anyone --it just seems natural to me -even though my hands are small -to concentrate on getting my thumb position supple and simply 'there' when I need to play ie the C in the first few measures - why does piano technique have to be like rocket science? Maybe for the pros I guess.

[keyboardclass]

- why does piano technique have to be like rocket science? Maybe for the pros I guess.

No, for the pro teachers.

[technique]

I can't personally agree with a metronomic approach here. the groupings imply subdivisions from the 2nd semiquaver to the first of the next beat. you would never hear string players tearing through without reflecting natural subdivisions. It makes more sense to me to have a mild inequality that helps to avoid any sense of forcing into the thumb. I agree fully that it's necessary to strive for legato and this is something I've been continuing to work at. However feeling that the thumb should land metronomically does not strike me as being part of that.

Ok...Id like to agree but cannot because the manuscript showing 1/16's insists that your idea rejects the score.....In fact , the grouping your suggesting isn't even under the wing of a marked phrase.  The way to learn this piece is to first approach the C arpeggio, simply two octaves  up and back...theres no point in going any further until those two up and down sound like melting butter with total freedom in the hand and absolute pefect equality and legato in each and every note.  Its not hard and if the thumb follows as I explained earlier the intended will come to surface...if any one trys this, bear in mind that its not a bad idea to slightly lift after the second number strike to allow for a somewhat arched and free 4th finger , the approach should naturally unlock any possible tension at this point...strike(C) and then the 5th baby finger strike as well somewhat arched....if the thumb and hand moves along evenly as ive been suggesting this pefect form will be in order along with everything thats required....anyway this is my opinion and i guess part of the fun is getting a chance to express  

[technique]

Reading this thread amost puts me off playing the piano at all -it seems like there are so many ways to mess up.  I can play the first page of the Chopin 0P 10/1 pretty accurately -but only as a warm up -and not caring too much about going deeply into uber piano mechanics or playing to impress anyone --it just seems natural to me -even though my hands are small -to concentrate on getting my thumb position supple and simply 'there' when I need to play ie the C in the first few measures - why does piano technique have to be like rocket science? Maybe for the pros I guess.

Its not.  Part of this is due to only being able to use words in a description which is very physical....  If someone had a very good teacher for example from grade 2...through to grade 6   and aquired zero bad habits due to well informed perfect form in hand .....the teaching really is over.   all thats left is expression and following the layed out scheme. ...oh.... I like to say opinion after...its like trying to re-construct an already built house , its better and easier most of the time to just get a fresh piece of land and start over.....this is the hardest thing to meet in the journey...slowing down and getting those hands operating properly so that all the things like stability and finger-hand uniformity and strengh can go forward...from a good foundation...a good foundation is needed to build a worthy house

[technique]

duplicate mistake

[thalbergmad]

Reading this thread amost puts me off playing the piano at all

Same here, if something comes naturally, it is best not to question why.

At a generous assessment, 50% of this thread is probably bollox. Unfortunately, I don't know which 50% and I don't think anyone else does either.

Thal

[nyiregyhazi]

Ok...Id like to agree but cannot because the manuscript showing 1/16's insists that your idea rejects the score.....In fact , the grouping your suggesting isn't even under the wing of a marked phrase.  The way to learn this piece is to first approach the C arpeggio, simply two octaves  up and back...theres no point in going any further until those two up and down sound like melting butter with total freedom in the hand and absolute pefect equality and legato in each and every note.  Its not hard and if the thumb follows as I explained earlier the intended will come to surface...if any one trys this, bear in mind that its not a bad idea to slightly lift after the second number strike to allow for a fully arched and free 4th finger...strike(C) and then the 5th baby finger strike as well reasonably arched....if the thumb and hand moves along evenly as ive been suggesting this pefect form will be in order along with everything thats required....anyway this is my opinion and i guess part of the fun is getting a chance to express  

If you're speaking of legato then I agree. It's the idea that there should be metronomic equality I disagree with. What about the score suggests that? Mild agogics to illustrate changes of direction are standard in both harpsichord technique and string playing. If you feel rushed to the thumb, the ear has no time to perceive anything but a furious flurry of undefined notes. Allowing a fraction of time illustrates the 'bowing' and prevents any sense of implied heaviness on the the thumb. Konrad Wolff's book on Schnabel's teaching deals with these issues in depth. Changes in melodic direction need time to speak.

[nyiregyhazi]

Same here, if something comes naturally, it is best not to question why

that's quite an if. anyone here playing this study with ease near the metronome mark? if it doesn't come naturally, progress comes from continuing to ask questions. doing what comes naturally means settling for your current level, rather than aspiring for more.

[technique]

If you're speaking of legato then I agree. It's the idea that there should be metronomic equality I disagree with. What about the score suggests that? Mild agogics to illustrate changes of direction are standard in both harpsichord technique and string playing. If you feel rushed to the thumb, the ear has no time to perceive anything but a furious flurry of undefined notes. Allowing a fraction of time illustrates the 'bowing' and prevents any sense of implied heaviness on the the thumb. Konrad Wolff's book on Schnabel's teaching deals with these issues in depth. Changes in melodic direction need time to speak.

Well I'm just on my way out and thought Id get back. I think you know what I'm going to say...The score doesn't have to suggest equality required in every single measure. Your suggesting artist discresion after every 4 notes in the piece so we'll have to agree to dis-agree.

Also my notes claim that the metronome was always going in Chopins lessons. Theres no rush to the thumb when the thumb is in proper even motion and winds up sitting right in perfect place for the next C strike.  If you just take two octaves going down...(its easiest) and cannot get the thing on the metronome, each note,  with a free and even motion in the hand then...i humbly believe theres a problem. If you can...then why wouldn't this continuity be imparted into the whole piece?   Anyway...Ive gone over this thread a few times and am happy with the contribution on my part with regards to any possible aid , in this piece anyway. If its argued thats fine.   Enjoying all the comments and have a great day to be sure.

[ajspiano]

Have to agree with the 'it matters to teachers' comment. Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to figure these things out intuitively. One must understand it intricately in order to explain it. If anyone is lucky enough to be able to play this piece att full tempo intuitively then I am somewhat jealous.

I had intended to record a video last night, instead I worked to refine the technique working on just the first bars (c major arp up/down). As I changed/refined a few things I am leaving it for a couple of days so that I am a bit more solid with it and can do it accurately at high speed over the whole keboard.

Working in groups of 2 octaves (cgce,cgce and back down) I can play it at 192-200bpm which is fairly obscene. I was not expecting that to happen. It breaks down over the whole phase I think because I need to work on refining what happens with my torso. I can manage the whole phrase at around 160bpm, a fraction under the marking. Accents are less audible on the way up, easy to bring out in the way down.

If I could describe the technique I'm working with it would just be the the body/arm/hand/fingers have a perfect sense of balance over every note. And, that the positions and transitions between each notes are all uniquely different. Any individual group of 4 notes cgce has a feel of an in,out,out,in arc shape in terms of the depth of my hand into the keys.. It is absolutely imperative that you don't leave the thumb stretched out toward the lower c on the way up, it must be relaxed and supple from instant you move on to the G.

^obviously a fairly halfarsed incomprehensible description.

In any case, until I can prove that I can actually do it in a video I wouldn't listen to closely to me. Hopefully will be up by Friday.

Not that music is a speed race but in the interest of the 'technique discussion' I will aim to produce a functioning demo at above the marked speed of 176. With any luck it will be musical too

[keyboardclass]

Working in groups of 2 octaves (cgce,cgce and back down) I can play it at 192-200bpm which is fairly obscene.

Well, great minds obviously think alike.  Here's one I prepared earlier!

[ajspiano]

Still not fast enough though right?

Obviously the accents are clearer in your performance though so I feel no need to argue over the better movement..

To achieve the high speed I did the following - maybe not a good idea for everyone though? I am lucky enough to be able to intuitively alter movements at extreme speeds. Though in this case I do think that beginning at the higher tempo makes it completely impossible for an inefficient movement to even think about trying to play.

Set metronome 192bpm
Practice 5 note groups on the beat.
Group 1 - cgcec
Group 2 - gcecg
Group 3 - cecgc
Group 4 - ecgce

Do this in all relevant octaves to account for torso position, ensure you always finish comfortably balanced and supple of the final note (it's too fast to be entirety sure if I'm balanced/supple in the middle of the group).

Once i could to all of these without any trouble (took me about 10 mins to cover the whole phrase) I did them all again but much slower focusing on perfect balance over every note.

Then I used the same idea over 2 octave groups. 192 was comfortable for only the cgce pattern there. It was way beyond possible for the others which I will attend to this evening before attempting a 3 octave pattern.

I haven't touched any of the other phrases eg cacf or bgbd. However I did play through the first page and four the work had dramatically improved the whole piece not just the first bar. Not that that was a surprise ofcourse..

[keyboardclass]

I have no target speeds, just whatever's comfortable.  In that way things speed up of their own accord.

[ajspiano]

I have no target speeds, just whatever's comfortable.  In that way things speed up of their own accord.

Whatever works for you of course.. That method would cause me problems because it would take me such a long time to get the piece to an acceptable standard. If I can't play the small section i'm working on comfortably at full speed HT within 10-20 minutes of first look, the assumption is not that I need to practice more. Rather it is that I'm doing it wrong.

192 is not a target. Playing above tempo initially is a tool to test movement and find a good one. So I don't waste hours of practice on a movement that will ultimately end in a speed wall.