Liszt Consolation No. 3 Project

[candlelightpiano]

Zoe:  It's good to see you here!  Having tea so late at night?   It's been quiet today on PS.  Just me and AJ keeping each other company!  I uploaded two videos last night but no one has watched them yet.  And I've been trying all night to upload another video.

AJ:  Your challenge etude IS a challenge. It's more similar to the birdsong polyrhythm that I've been working on.  So how do you learn to do it?  I find I have to use the metronome with the LH triplets, then with the RH 16th notes and then try and put them together. Is that how you would do it?  Do you have a simpler or better method to learn how to put this polyrhythm together?  One of my videos last night had the two polyrhythms I've been working on. 

Well, if I don't get tonight's video uploaded, I hope you guys will watch the two vids I posted last night and give me some feedback.  Thanks. 

[zoecalgary]

Ya, not so much a real dye hard tea drinker but I'm chilly and want to warm up before bed :-)

Choo, I just watched your two videos. I cant offer advice per say but I found them interesting to watch. Did I hear you  correct when you said your teacher wants you to keep your fingers in the LH touching the keys all the time? I don't think I'd be able to do that because my hand is so small. I'll have to try some of that tomorrow just out of curiosity.

I think AJ is right in saying that the Consolation polys are hard because there are not always present. Even just switching one hand from 3 to 2 has been hard for me.

It seems like you've really adjusted to your new (wonderful!) piano. You are getting all sorts of different dynamic, some soft and delicate and others a bit more booming. I just love the sound! Is your digital feeling neglected? Have you played it much since your new arrival? haha

I have a silly question for you, do you find your music higher on the grand? I always wondered this because on my upright it seems the music is very low and near to my hands, but on a grand it seem higher. Is this so?

[zoecalgary]

AJ - I just listened to your latest videos again. Very nice. Your exercises sound more like little pieces to me.

[candlelightpiano]

Zoe, you won't believe this!  I was trying to upload the wrong video ALL night!!!!!  OMG!!  I'm exhausted!  So I'm now uploading tonight's video and I'll post it tomorrow as it's past the witching hour here.  I have two videos to post tomorrow, if I can ever get them uploaded. I've never been so frustrated with YouTube though it's my fault for uploading the wrong video. Tonight's recorded practice session was a lot better than last nights.  Thanks for watching and commenting.  

Yes, for the sempre legatissimo, he wanted the fingers touching the keys at all times. I have fairly large hands so I can do that but it takes a lot of practice.  I manage to do it sometimes but not other times when it's quite a stretch and I've had to change my LH fingering in a lot of measures because he wanted me to use my thumb only on the highest notes! So that's why I was having a memory blackout!!  Tonight, my memory was better and I played to the last page. There were memory failures here and there, but it was better than last night.  But I still have a lot of work to do on my left hand.  

The 4 in 3 polys in Consolation is hard because it's not only that it's not always present but the notes move back and forth and cover quite a distance.  In FI, they were running notes, next to each other, except for bar 7 - 8 and that was also difficult for me to learn to fit together when I began. Also, in Consolation, it's slow so you can hear any uneven fit of the 4 in 3.

Guess what?  My piano hasn't been tuned! The dealer said that they usually have it tuned before they deliver but the tuner was out of town.  So he's coming next week.   I've been using the digital a lot, actually, while trying to learn to play the polyrhythms.  I've been using the recorder and metronome a lot!  I'm glad I decided to leave the digital in the same room.  I just go from one piano to the other!!  

By music, you mean my sheet music?  It's definitely higher on the grand than my digital or an upright piano but I don't find it difficult to read.  I also notice that my hands are a bit higher than on the digital but it actually makes playing easier.

It's true.  AJ's exercises sound like little beautiful lyrical pieces. Everything he plays sound beautiful. I'm so green with envy!

[zoecalgary]

Choo, oh no! Don't you hate computers sometimes. They drive me crazy sometimes!

I'm 6 minutes to the witching hour here. With some warm tea in me I'm ready to call it a day. Have a good night. I'll be around more tomorrow. Maybe I can post a video of some poly work too! Poly here, poly there, poly poly everywhere! Oh dear I think I'm tired!   

[candlelightpiano]

ZOE:  YES, YES, YES!!!!!  Poly videos, please!  I look forward to your video on polys.  I have one to post too if I can ever get it uploaded! That will be tomorrow, hopefully.     The other one is uploading now.  Should be done in the next few minutes.  You must be exhausted after being gone all day.  I hope you had a good time. 

I'm still up even though it's way past the witching hour.  Witches and owls hang out together!      Look forward to you being on forum tomorrow.

[candlelightpiano]

Finally got this video uploaded! It's just a practice session but I've gone further here though have memory lapses here and there.  My LH needs a lot of work. It was fine at the beginning but got worse as the piece progressed.  Haven't paid any attention to pedalling, either.  Been busy getting used to the new fingering, trying to get the birdsong polyrhytms, the flow of the left hand, etc ....it's hard to concentrate on so many things at one time!  Welcome your feedback.  I have another video to post - tomorrow - on the birdsong polys.

[dire_tonic]

Did you try the looping exercise for the 3rd beat of bar 22 I suggested on a previous page?  Perhaps I missed it on one of your vids.  Meanwhile your 2-3s have come unstuck.  In bar 4 you’re playing..



..you’re allowing 2 complete LH quavers for every RH note (you can see from the arrows).  As a result, the 4-note RH phrase (strickly speaking now comprised of 1/4 notes) which is supposed to finish just before the completion of the LH arpeggio is extending to well after it hence there is no LH to support it and you've stretched the bar in length to beyond 4 beats.


Try this exercise below. Loop each 2/4 bar until you're comfortable then go on to the next. The final bar is the 2nd half of bar 4.  If you get stuck, go back a bar.

(Of course, you know how the 2 is supposed to fit to the 3 but I've included pointers anyway)



 (both staves in 5 flats!)

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks for your feedback and detailed notes to help me with this, DT!  Yes, I thought my 3-2s were getting mixed up and it's because my LH is now playing faster with that gliding action, I think.  I'll work on what you suggested.  Thanks for pointing it out and drawing it out for me to follow! That's so thoughtful of you.  I'll make another video tonight after working on it like you suggested and hopefully, will have got it right.  Do you think it's because I slowed down on the second half of bar 4 that it became that way?  How about the other 2 in 3 areas, in other bars?  Were they okay?

I did the looping exercise for the 3rd beat of 22 and others like it, recording just the LH and playing the RH over it, then together without the recording. I'm going to post the second video in just a moment.  It's my polyrhythm exercise.

[candlelightpiano]

4 in 3 Polyrhythms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BdctNaiPyA&feature=youtu.be

Let me know what you think.  Did I get them right?

[dire_tonic]

 - they're coming along but they're still a little approximate.  Maybe they'll be good enough in the performance, in context.  For some reason or other bar 22 wasn't as good as any of the similar bars which followed.  In 22, your LH started to follow the pace of the RH, which is faster. 

By the way, you're not actually doing the looping.  You're playing each bar once, pausing then starting to play the same bar again.  By looping I mean setting a comfortable tempo (for the LH arpeggio) and maintaining it strictly, playing the 6-note phrase round and round without stopping then adding the RH phrase on alternate cycles.  If you do that, I think you'll be forced to 'fit' the RH notes whereas playing it once, you can afford to let the phrase just tail off - any inaccuracies are less likely to be apparent.

[zoecalgary]

Choo - in your latest video your RH is really starting to sound good. Particularly in the first minute or so. It sounding really sweet and free. It's becoming to sound really nice.

Try what DT suggested about looping parts. That's when I noticed I was off when i was doing litetunes étude. It's not until you go to the start again that you hear something is not quite right. The metronome helps lots too. On the digital I got the metronome to ding on every beat so I could really keep the time strict.

I can't tell if you got the 2 hands in sync as per the music but each part sounds really good so it's just a matter of time I think. You are really progressing through this. I'm still back at poly practice haha but it's good for me to do this step first I think or I will have a big disaster with this piece if i try to continue it right now.

[candlelightpiano]

DT:  Thanks so much once again for taking the time to watch and listen to my practice sessions and making very useful suggestions.  You're always so observant, helpful and knowledgeable.

No, I haven't been doing the looping you talked about. I was recording the LH 3rd and 4th beats (2 triplets) on my digital, leaving a pause in between, and then recording it again and I would do this for 20 times.  Then I would play my RH over it, pause for the next one, and do it again,  I thought that's what you meant. 

Now I think I understand what you mean by looping:  record the LH 6 note cycle over and over and over without pause, then fit the RH in on alternate cycles?  I'll try that and record another birdsong video tonight. 

I think I know why I went so off kilter on my 3 in 2 polyrhytms for bar 4 and others like it.  My RH was coming in fast and when I slowed down, I was off balance and I began to fit the RH 2 into one LH note, leaving the last RH note dangling!  I'll work on the 3 in 2 separately for all of them through the piece, then when I play the LH, I'll slow down from the beginning but still try and maintain the sempre legatissimo touch.  Will record another vid tonight, too. 

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, Zoe, for watching and commenting and for your suggestions.  DT is definitely right and has given me some really useful and helpful tips.  He's incredibly observant and has pointed out the problem areas. 

I'm having lots of trouble because I'm now playing the LH faster and more freely but it's causing my RH polyrhythm notes to come unstuck.  So I'll have to work on the polys and slow down the LH.  I definitely find the use of the metronome helpful for polys, especially the 4 in 3s.  It's like a house under major construction here and it's a big mess!!      But I feel that it's coming along. Everyday, I feel that I'm improving it in some ways but going backward in other ways!!  (like the 3 in 2 poly - I got it right before and it's usually easy for me to do but I'm screwing up now!!  )  Someday I'll get it!!

[starstruck5]

I watched both your videos Choo -DT has given you some really excellent tips -All I can add is that you know now what you want to achieve -so all you need is to practise! You are so very close to getting the notes fluently.

I still think it would help you to practise arpeggios and broken chords more -these are one of the major building blocks of music -it is wonderful when you recognise them in a piece, because you are not reading individual notes then -you are seeing a familiar pattern, which makes learning a great deal easier.  They don't have to be boring to practise either, because it is surprising how pretty different combinations are -I'll make a video to demonstrate this!

Here is a piece, whose melody is almost built entirely from broken chords -(I'm not suggesting you learn it or anything -but just one of many chord based work, which is simple, but sublime)

[candlelightpiano]

STARSTRUCK:  That melody was sublime, as you said.  And thanks for watching my videos and for your encouragement.  I'll keep working at it.  As far as practicing arpeggios and broken chords, I think it would be better for me to do it in a piece, like the one you posted, than to practice a Hanon-type exercise, which is so dull. So perhaps you could suggest some beautiful pieces that you think I'd like and be able to play that is based on arpeggios and broken chords and I'll take a look at them and decide on one for my next piece, while I'm working on FI.  A quiet piece would be nice, as a breather from FI.

If I can get DT and Zoe  to go along with it, we can start up another project after Consolation!!    I don't want to go into a project alone.

I look forward to your video.  I hope you're still planning to do a video on Consolation.  Are you?

EDIT

I just wanted to say that I do recognize arpeggios and broken chords in pieces.  When I was doing the accelerated piano program for 2 1/2 years, I spent a great deal of time practicing them in all major and minor keys.  Also practiced tons of scales and did a lot of Hanon and Czerny.  Even though that was 19 plus years ago, I still recognize scales, arpeggios and broken chords in music and know the fingerings for them.

[ajspiano]

How long does it take you to make these compositions? You're amazingly talented!

Not very long, and no I'm hardly talented.. Just a little more experienced perhaps. All I'm doing is writing down an improvisation and refining it a little.

I've watched your latest video of the 3vs4 - they don't seem too bad, though I see how you do better with the metronome. It looks as if you can do it but you really have to focus on it rather than just "feeling the rhythm" ..? They could certainly be more solid and comfortable than they are.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:  You're right about the way I'm doing the 4 in 3 polys.  I tried DT's looping method for a long time this afternoon and couldn't get it to work.  I got all messed up.  When I use the metronome, I can just about get it.  Also, when I focus on the LH (play it really loudly to get the right beats) with the RH playing very softly, I can get it.  Do you have any suggestions to help me get them right? They're measures 22 and 26 and there are two more similar polyrhythm measures on the last page. 

[ajspiano]

Do you have any suggestions to help me get them right?

Yes I do, but..   it relies heavily on you being comfortable on 2 vs 3 - I havent watched the earlier video yet but I read DT's post though and he said you were getting them a little wrong so I don't think my suggestion would be of benefit just yet...?  How do you feel about them now that you've done the looping exercise that he put up?

[candlelightpiano]

AJ, my 3 in 2 polyrhythms are fine now.  I just had problems yesterday because my LH was going too fast.  But I slowed my LH down this afternoon and my 3 in 2 polyrhythms are back together again!!   

When doing the 4 in 3 birdsong poly (bar 22 etc) , if I concentrate on the LH, counting the triplets as 123, and almost ignoring the RH (I would play the RH softly but the LH loudly), I would get it but the RH would sometimes not be smooth. 

I only began working on this 4 in 3 birdsong poly since Wednesday.  I feel that they're coming together but at this point, I'm not quite there yet. But if you have any suggestions to help me with them, I would really appreciate it.

[ajspiano]

My idea involves a fairly lengthy progression of steps - with the end aim being that you can just feel the rhythm without the need to focus on it at all - it will initially seem like the idea of 3 vs 4 is some distant focus that has nothing to do with what you are doing... 

And that would kind of be the case because by the time you get through the way I would practice it you will have learnt a mountain about harmony and probably discovered that you can improvise as well...

So i guess the question is are you willing to push yourself to think through a lot of notes without a score in front of you - the whole thing will be mentally straining, but enormously beneficial.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ, I'd love to learn harmony and be able to improvise!!  That would be cool!  But how long will it take?  Can I learn it online?  Is this the way you would learn this polyharmony?

[ajspiano]

The objective would be to teach you how to create you're own "piece relevant exercises" so you can practice a specific skill, in the context of the piece your studying without having to repeat the exact same notes over and over until you drop, because that type of repetition is mindless and leads to boredom and frustration.

If you want to try it you can start by writing out the following, just as the letter names.. This will be step 1.

___________

Here is the F major scale, spread two octaves (its easier to see over 2 octaves, but really only 1 is needed) -

F G A Bb C D E F G A Bb C D E F -

Build a triad based on every note of the scale, and name it. - as follows

F A C - F major
G Bb D - G minor
A C E - A minor
Bb D F - Bb major
C E G - C major
D F A - D minor
E G Bb - E half diminished (the half dim. is evident only if you include the 7th degree "D")

These are all the chords that pertain to the key of F major ---- do this for at least 3 different keys and include Db since that's the key of the consolation (this is just to get your head around thinking through the notes), do all 12 major keys if you really want to learn properly.

-----------

Once you've done that, rearrange them into a different order, following 4ths..  like this.. I will just write the chord names rather than spell them out, again i'll use the key of F.

F major
Bb major
E half diminished
A minor
D minor
G minor
C major
F major (progression runs back into it self and forms a loop)

This will be our basic chord progression upon which to construct an exercise - write out the pattern in different keys. It not enough just to understand it in one key and say you can do it for all of them - you must write out the different keys in order to properly familiarize yourself with them.

Show me what you've written out so that I can point out any misunderstandings you may have. This can all be done away from the piano if you know your scales well, but if its easier to do it at the piano thats fine too - you will eventually have to play it after all.

End of step 1 - told you it would be a mental work out..

[ajspiano]

I would perhaps suggest that going through such processes could be used to break up your regular practice a little - rather than directing all your focus onto it to try and get it all done immediately -

I promise we'll get to something relevant to polyrhythms soon..

[costicina]

Good idea, AJ!!!!

[candlelightpiano]

Thank you so much, AJ!  This is actually a lot of fun!  Here's Step 1 (hopefully I got them right!):

D MAJOR

D E F# G A B C# D

D F# A  - D Major
E G B    - E minor
F# A C#  - F# minor
G B D - G Major
A C# E - A Major
B D F# - B minor
C# E G - C# Diminished?   (C# minor would be C# E G#)

C MAJOR

CDEFGABC

CEG - C Major
DFA - D minor
EGB - E minor
FAC - F major
GBD - G major
ACE - A minor
BDF - B Diminished

D FLAT MAJOR

Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db

Db F Ab - Db Major
Eb G Bb - Eb Major
F Ab C - F minor
Gb Bb Db - Gb Major
Ab C Eb - Ab Major
Bb Db F - Bb minor
C Eb Gb - C diminished

I'll do Step 2 tomorrow as it's past midnight.  Please let me know if I get these right. I enjoyed doing these!    Thanks!

[candlelightpiano]

I made another video tonight because I screwed up the 3 in 2 polyrhythms last night and also because I'm still working on the 4 in 3 birdsong polys.  I know I played too many thirds in bar 40!  Had a memory lapse!  Many memory lapses!!!     Also wasn't concentrating on pedaling. Too many things to think about!

DT:  Thanks for all your assistance with the polyrhythms.  I hope I got the 3 in 2s right this time.  And of course, the 4 in 3s. They're still a problem.  I tried cycling many times this afternoon but couldn't get it.  My left hand was almost always off beat. I find that if I concentrate on the LH, counting 123, I can get it most of the time but my RH does not coordinate as well. 

[ajspiano]

I can see 1 error, rather than point it out though maybe I'll leave it for you to try and find it? Or maybe Zoe can spot it?

[dire_tonic]

Your 2-3s are still not right, Choo. Maybe at this stage, one might say it doesn’t matter too much because a) the piano is sounding beautiful and you're playing with just the right mood so we’re getting the effect  - it’s unmistakably  Consolation 3 – and b), perhaps time alone will earn you success through pure persistence?  Like a jar with a stubbornly tight lid, every little effort counts and sooner or later the lid will turn.

If you want to pursue this here’s where you're going wrong (vid post 326) on bar 4 and similar elsewhere...





In fact, this is exactly what Zoe was doing in her first video of HT of this section. You can see how you’ve doubled the time value of the (LH) Gb and F. In leaving that extra gap so that the (RH) C and F can be accommodated you've disrupted the even metre of the arpeggio and the second half of the bar has now grown an extra beat  - like the last time but in a different way.

If this sorts itself out as a matter of course and persistence – great! But if not, I’d like to see a video of the looping exercise I wrote out for you above in reply 307. If you start out ok at bar 1 but show a weakness as you progress through to bar 3 (your goal!), spotting the weakness could be the clue to a remedy. Or better still, the exercise will set you straight!

Incidentally, when you're trying to iron out a timing problem, forget pedalling, forget everything except the timing!

[starstruck5]

I agree with DT -the timing is everything.  When I learnt this, I remember being very meticulous in my counting 

 I found it helps to count the eighth notes 3 AND 4 AND -that way the triplets stay even, as do the 1/8ths.

 When we have the 4 against three -I make sure the first two notes of the 16ths are played, before letting the triplet trigger the remaining two 16ths -we have a kind of 3-a-dum-a-dum-a -4 -a dum-a dum a. The dums being of course the triplet notes.

These are never easy -I struggle with the Bb Minor Nocture of Chopin -where he has inflicted polys of nightmarish proportions! One day I wll get it!

[candlelightpiano]

DT:  You're an excellent teacher!  Thanks for pointing out my problems again.  I did your looping exercise for the 3 -2s and thought I'd got them right.  I'll do them again and make a video for you today.  Didn't I get them right in the past?  What's happening to me?  I used to count 3 and 4 and for the RH eighth notes and listen to the LH.  I'll do them on my DP recorder.

STARSTRUCK:  I don't understand your 3-a-dum-a-dum-a-4-a-dum-a-dum-a.  Was that for the 16th note polyrhythms?  Perhaps you could make a video just demonstrating this? I'd appreciate it.

[candlelightpiano]

Zoe, I was doing a bit of chord homework for AJ last night (see post above). He said I got all correct except for one.  Can you take a look and see if you can spot the one I got wrong and can you name the chord? I have a feeling it's the C# E G chord but I'll let you take a look and tell me.

I'll be making a video soon of the 3 in 2 polyrhythm looping exercise that DT wrote out for me yesterday.  I'm depressed.  My Consolation is now an utter disaster!   

[zoecalgary]

Choo, I was just going through AJ's chord exercise myself. Let me see if I can spot the error. I did C and G scales, and I was just going to do Db. Give me a few minutes and I'll post again.

[zoecalgary]

Choo, I think I found it. It is in your Db Major scale, your second chord should be: Eb Gb Bb and be called Eb minor. (you missed the Gb and called it Eb major).

AJ - Just a clarifying question on the triad built on the seventh note of the scale. Can it also be called a Major Seventh?

[zoecalgary]

AJ - I am fascinated with your theory exercise so I went through and did it myself for the C, G, and Db major scales. I won't post here as I think I got the hang of it and I'm sure you're busy enough. The thought of being able to create piece specific exercises has really caught my fancy and so I'm working along here in the background to see how long I can keep up.

I am now going to go finally work on that revised Etude you wrote. I never got much chance this past weekend. Thanks again!

[candlelightpiano]

YES, Zoe, you're right!  I looked at it again and saw my error.  I listed Gb, then forgot it.  You're welcome to post your three scale chords here for AJ and we can both work with him.  You don't have to do it in the background.  I think it would be more fun if you did that.  Thanks for taking a look at my chords.  Aren't you supposed to be having piano lessons today?

[candlelightpiano]

Here's my 3 in 2 polyrhythm exercise.  I'm using the exercise that DT so kindly made for me.  DT, you're a fine teacher!!  Thanks and I hope I got this right.

To all who are watching:  Please let me know if I got this right!!  Your feedback is very important to me and very welcome!

[starstruck5]

   Sound pretty good to me!  These mechanical exercise do help.

[dire_tonic]

Bingo!!

Full marks for that Choo!  I knew you’d played a perfectly satisfactory 2-3 elsewhere (e.g. the moderato section of FI) so I was a little perplexed that you were having such problems with Consolation and which is why I set the exercise up with a very easy first bar which transitions gradually to the 3rd bar, which as you know is the last half of bar 4 of the piece.

I  think it’s wide open for you now.  You almost certainly don’t need to loop measures 1 & 2 of the exercise unless you suffer a mental block again (which is what I imagine has been going on).  So at this stage, play the piece from the top and if, when you arrive at bar 4, you’re having problems again then just loop exercise bar 3 then try and go straight back to the piece from the beginning of measure 4.

There are so many ways you can practice all the 2-3s now and I’ve no doubt you’ll be able to design your own exercise routines which will focus on any of those you’re still finding tricky.

Well done!

(I’ll post up a suggested looping practice for the 4-3s later today or tomorrow)

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks so much, DT!  You've been absolutely a wonderful teacher and friend to me.  You know you are an excellent teacher, don't you?  And so patient, too!  Listening through all my videos is not for the faint of heart!   

I feel better now that I've got it.  However, I'm worried that I'll lose it again when I play Consolation because of the legatissimo in the LH.  I think perhaps I need to practice first with accents, and then without. I'll do as you have suggested.  I think I'll just record it on my DP and listen to it and if I haven't got it right, I'll go back to the 3rd measure of your exercise or do it all over again. 

Actually I didn't get the 3 in 2 in the middle section of FI.  Birba made me a video and showed me how to do it but I never posted another video of it.  I should. Well, at this week's lesson, I'm hoping to do FI and I might post a video of it on the FI thread, thus reviving it and we can have two projects going simultaneously.

Do you think I should make a video of all the 3 in 2 polyrhythms in Consolation? 

Thanks once again!!

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, Starstruck, for listening and telling me I got it right!  I was feeling distressed about it.  My Consolation was turning into a disaster - a real condolence consolation!!  I'm still not confident about all the 3 in 2 polyrhythms in it and the 4 in 3 - that's even worse!

DP:  I can do a recording of the 4 in 3 polyrhythm the way you suggested, if you like.  This way, you can see if I am doing it correctly. 

[dire_tonic]

Do you think I should make a video of all the 3 in 2 polyrhythms in Consolation?  

Yes, that's a good idea.  You could play the whole piece, or most of it and for the sake of continuity perhaps just avoid playing the long 4-3 RH passages (there are only 4 of them anyway).  In contrast the 2-3's are everywhere throughout Consolation.

You asked about doing the 4-3 exercise.  Yes, if you can decipher what I was suggesting, namely to loop the LH (as for the 2-3s) then, looking at bar 22, start by playing only the 3rd beat of the RH but resolve it by playing the Ab as well (first note of the 4th beat).  The Ab is crucial because in falling smack on beat 4, you can use it to make sure the preceding notes are squashed in.

Let me know if that's not clear and I'll sketch it out...

Loop the whole bar and in the LH, while you're in the 'training' phase, play an Ab in place of the written rest at the beginning.  This will help to anchor the beginning and end points.  I think it's the rests in Consolation that add to the difficulties.  Don't add the 4th beat of the birdsong until you're happy you've got the 3rd beat down properly.  Above all, make sure that your LH is steady and with a constant metre.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks once again, DT.  Okay, I'll work on all the 3 in 2 polys in Consolation and when I'm quite confident, I'll post a video minus the 4 in 3 birdsong poly in the RH (I'll just play the LH for the sake of continuity).

What I understand from your looping exercise for the 4 in 3 is this:

First, I record the LH 3rd and 4th beats of bar 2 (6 notes). 
Secondly, I play the recording and while it's going, I play the RH 5 notes on top of it, with the last RH Ab note playing with the LH Ab.
If I can do that fine, I'll play HT (I'll record it to listen). 
If that's good, I'll re-do the exercise but omit the first RH note, thus playing only 4 notes and ending up at Ab again.
If that's good, I'll do it HT.

I think I should only go this far before completing the birdsong.  What do you think?

[dire_tonic]

 - that's it.  Go for it!!

[candlelightpiano]

AJ, this is the second step of my chord exercise:

D MAJOR

D MAJOR
G MAJOR
C# diminished
F# minor
B minor
E minor
A MAJOR
D MAJOR

C MAJOR

C MAJOR
F MAJOR
B diminished
E minor
A minor
D minor
G MAJOR
C MAJOR

Db MAJOR

Db MAJOR
Gb MAJOR
C diminished
F minor
Bb minor
Eb minor
Ab MAJOR
Db MAJOR

[ajspiano]

Lots of action here over night!!

 Ok that's great choo - I was going to say to start playing something, but I think that for both your sake and zoe's we should carry out the chords to the 7ths first, to clarify the differences between maj 7th, minor 7th, Dom 7th and half dim..

You can work in the order in forths here,

Add the the 7th to the "spelling out" of the chords, like this

FACE
BbDFA
EGBbD

Etc.

Play each of the chords you write, listen to how they sound, tell me which ones are similar to each other and which ones are different - identify the differences based on whether the intervals within the chord are major or minor or otherwise - assuming you know how to identify intervals?

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ.  I'd better refresh my memory.

Major 3rd has 4 half steps.  Minor 3rd has 3 half steps. 

Major 7th - I'm not sure how many half steps (many!) but in C major, that would be from C to B.  In Db major, that would be from Db to C

Minor 7th is one half step below the major ones so from C to B flat, or from Db to C flat

Dominant 7th is one half step above the major ones so from C to B sharp or from D flat to C sharp

What is half diminished?  Did I get those intervals right?

[ajspiano]

Your major and minor intervals are correct -

Dominant 7th doesn't refer to an interval. Each degree of the scale has a technical name

Tonic, supersonic, mediant, sub-dominant, dominant and so on.. Dominant is the 5th degree of the scale, when I say dominant 7th I'm referin to the 7th chord built on the dominant degree of a scale, so in F, CEGBb is are the notes of the dom. 7th chord.

Aside from that, major 7th, minor 7th and half dim can refer to chords aswell as intervals.

A major 7th chord is constructed by the intervals above its root of a major 3rd, perfect 5th and major 7th.

The minor 7th has a different construction, as does the dom, and the half dim - these are the differences I was asking you to find..

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ.  Since I've forgotten my chords, I think I should build the 7th first, like you did in your example, before listening to them and telling you the difference.  It may take a while for me to get to all of them.  And I hope I'll get them right.  Zoe should do better as she has a much better knowledge of chords due to her experience as an organist and she is also doing piano exams with an aural section. She may also be doing her theory exams.  I'll have to read up on it as I've forgotten most of it.  So let me do that first, then add the 7th before I go any further. 

Yeah, we were busy when it was overnight in Melbourne!  This thread has become very lively due to lots of active participants, which includes you.  It's great!   

[candlelightpiano]

Here's my 4 in 3 birdsong polyrhythm looping exercise.  This is for bar 22.

DT:  I hope I did it right. Thanks once again for your coaching!