Liszt Consolation No. 3 Project

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ and Marg!  I really appreciate your comments and compliments.  I'm having a ton of trouble with the polyrhythms in this piece, though.  DT sent me a PM and brought them to my attention.  The problems are just about everywhere when I listen to my LH!  I have a lot of work to do.  I'm now getting more used to my piano and able to get a softer sound but I'm not used to the pedal yet. 

AJ, I think I'm able to take the next step.  I did a few more keys but haven't completed the 12 keys but I'm ready to take the next step now.  If I don't understand, I'll go back and complete the 12 keys!  Thanks and it's good to have you back. 

[ajspiano]

some basic melodic ideas.

Ok - so you are going to be the composer now, but I'm going to give you some rule sets to help you make some of your decisions. At this point we probably won't end up with something that sounds like chopin crafted it, but it will at least work harmonically and rhythmically. I'll provide a score to show all the rules in action.

Rule 1 - rhythm.
LH: plays in triplets - as we did in first steps.
RH: Plays a rhythm that follows crotchet, quaver quaver, crotchet, quaver quaver every bar.

Rule 2 - choosing the notes
We will initially follow the same progression that we have done so far, however in first steps the 'chord' is changing every bar, in this exercise it will be every 2 beats, or twice per bar.

So in F major, the progression will again be F, Bb, Ehalfdim, Am, Dm, Gm, C..  you can do which ever key you choose but I will continue to demonstrate in F.

So the left hand will play as in first steps, but we change note every 2 beats - refer to my score. After you've had a go at this I'll give you another task to play the same thing we create hear but to completely reharmonise it and experiment with different chord changes/progressions.

CONSTRUCTING THE MELODY IN THE RIGHT HAND.

Rule 1 - We will play a 'chord tone' on the 1st and 3rd beat of each bar (all the crotchets), as in if the chord is F major the RH hand will play either F, A or C. Which one is up to you, then on the 3rd beat of the bar the chord will change to Bb, and the RH will play either Bb D or F.

Rule 2 - on the 2nd and 4th beats of each bar we will play scale tones that lead to the chord tone that will follow on the next beat. See the score to really understand what I mean here.


.......................

The score provided is not really intended to sound great, - so much as highlight some basic aspects of composition/improv. What you should do is try different transitions..  pick different chord tones to change to, and therefore different scale tones that lead to them..  settle on the one you like the sound of best...  See what you can come up with..

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:  I think I understand. So should I "compose" a melody in a key of my choice and then post a copy of my "composition" here?

[ajspiano]

AJ:  I think I understand. So should I "compose" a melody in a key of my choice and then post a copy of my "composition" here?

Yes.

Don't be too concerned about it sounding great at this point - we're just trying to get your head around whats possible, then we'll talk about how to make it more interesting. We could add theory to do with how to create "melodic curve" so that there's a build up to a climax and a resolution at the end..  bla bla bla..  not really necessary just yet.

At this point the constraints I've placed on the exercise make it difficult for you to make something that sounds bad..  the use of chord tones on the strong beats of the bar (1 and 3) and in time with the chord changes means you could just about put ANY 2 NOTES in place of the quavers with no consideration of key and you'd still end up something that sounds structured and harmonically correct.

This is something that musicians can use in improv - make sure that the first beat sounds right and in key, and that there is a strong rhythm throughout the bar and you just can't go wrong. This is because if you hit a 'wrong' note, say one out of the scale, what happens is you create harmonic tension on a weak beat of the bar, which is immediately resolved to a chord tone on a strong beat - and the tension/release sound keeps our mind interested. It also works because most people feel rhythm stronger than they feel pitch..  which can likely explain why the genre death metal as any level appreciation at all....

Once you've done something (just 1 key is fine) I'll rewrite your piece, with the same melody but different harmony - and make written notes on the score to explain what i'm doing - as I did with the melody ideas found in the score from my last post...  I'll do this using certain constraints, like the rules from this exercise, so you'll have a few different ideas to work with for how to choose your own harmony based on a given melody. As opposed to this exercise which is melody based on a given harmony.

[zoecalgary]

Oh it has been a crazy week and this week is not shaping up to be any better! I apologize for kind of disappearing from the thread. I feel like I have much to catch up on.

Choo - your playing is amazing and this piece is sounding very nice indeed. You my friend are a very fast learner!! I am envious!

AJ - I just went back and read all your posts on theory/harmony/etc. How well stated and informative. I had done the first part of the exercise (the scales and triads) last week but then simply did not post much after that and felt lost when I saw Choo's video for you. I'm hoping to catch up to your teachings though because this is fascinating me. It feels like learning a new secret language. I can't wait to put into practice what you've taught here. I'm hoping to try to create something nice and see if it catches the attention of my husband and kids. I often catch them humming things I'm learning (or can't stop playing!) so I'll have to see if I can create something interesting enough to catch their fancy. Thanks again for doing this!

As for me and Consolation 3...well I'm not really working on it now. My piano playing time has become severely limited lately and I'm just trying to stay on top of exam requirements and ironing out errors and stuff. However, I am still planning on completing AJ's study because I think it will really help when I return to this piece. I have learned so much though that I just got to keep hanging around here!

[ajspiano]

I'm hoping to catch up to your teachings though because this is fascinating me. It feels like learning a new secret language.

It is a essentially a language, having some idea of this stuff and atleast attempting composition is a big part of what makes you into a real musician.

Imagine if someone grew up speaking their language (english or whatever else it may be) and all they ever did was copy exactly what other people said, word for word with identical inflection and no comprehension of the meaning, just saying it exactly as it was intended to sound by the writer/orginal speaker... ...never ever attempting to form their own sentences..? 

 - I think this is comparable to the idea of only playing exactly the written score and following the composers intent 100%.

[starstruck5]

I have always found composing interesting AJ -why not start a Composition thread -where pianist/composer types, and those interested can talk shop?

[starstruck5]

I found this helpful:  Mega...does this fulfill your explaining of the technique?  I hope this posts, since I'm not real good at this.

[ Invalid YouTube link ]

This seemed a bit of a waste of motion to me -until I tried it out on the first two Chopin studies OP10 =wow -it works great!

[ajspiano]

This seemed a bit of a waste of motion to me -until I tried it out on the first two Chopin studies OP10 =wow -it works great!

She's teaching how to 'shape' a phrase - which provides tone colour and facilitates free/circular movement. Hers seems fairly large in places, though I assume she's exaggerating it to highlight the particular motion..  some phrases demand more than others..

I would exercise a little caution with the chopin studies if you're trying this at less than full speed - the size of such motion will be effected fairly heavily at the phenomenal speed intended for those pieces, though I think its fairly easy to 'feel' the right amount.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:  Here's my "composition".  I hope I got it right.  I played it and it sounded okay.  I downloaded musescore but couldn't for the life of me, figure out how to use it!  I think it takes time to learn to use it and I just was too rushed.  But if you could give us a quick tutorial on how you use it, we would appreciate it greatly.  I agree with Starstruck - you may want to consider starting a thread on composition, though I think you actually began this to teach me 4 in 3 polyrhythms, right?

[candlelightpiano]

Choo - your playing is amazing and this piece is sounding very nice indeed. You my friend are a very fast learner!! I am envious!

ZOE:  No reason to feel envious of me.  You're doing so well in such a short time.  DT pointed out that just about all my 3 in 2 polyrhythms were not correct.  I've been having great difficulty with them since I started to play a very smooth LH legatissimo.  So I'm working on them now.  As for FI,  I may have completed it but it's a long way from complete.  The last page is a disaster, as are several measures and the octave passage is still a problem. I'm even thinking of switching to Chopin's original version with no pinky accents! And I sprained my thumb and can't practice FI for a few days!      I've also noticed tension creeping in since I began working on FI again so a few days off is essential. 

[ajspiano]

AJ:  Here's my "composition".  I hope I got it right.  I played it and it sounded okay.  I downloaded musescore but couldn't for the life of me, figure out how to use it!  I think it takes time to learn to use it and I just was too rushed.  But if you could give us a quick tutorial on how you use it, we would appreciate it greatly.  I agree with Starstruck - you may want to consider starting a thread on composition, though I think you actually began this to teach me 4 in 3 polyrhythms, right?

Looks fine - I could do something for musescore though I don't know how to, maybe i need some kind of screen capture program?

I will digitize it and provide a PDF, and the musescore file too.. 

Yes the aim is 4 vs 3 - as you can perhaps see you kind of just wrote an 4 bar etude for 2 vs 3. How could you change it to make one for 3 vs 4? - also, given that each chord has 6 notes in the LH in triplets, you could turn this into a pattern of the chord tones based on the pattern Liszt uses in the consolation.

[candlelightpiano]

Looks fine - I could do something for musescore though I don't know how to, maybe i need some kind of screen capture program?

I will digitize it and provide a PDF, and the musescore file too..  

Yes the aim is 4 vs 3 - as you can perhaps see you kind of just wrote an 4 bar etude for 2 vs 3. How could you change it to make one for 3 vs 4? - also, given that each chord has 6 notes in the LH in triplets, you could turn this into a pattern of the chord tones based on the pattern Liszt uses in the consolation.

What's a screen capture program?  I think there was some kind of tutorial on musescore (or I may have it mixed up with musette) but I didn't understand.  If you create a PDF, can you please make it very simple to follow?  A few steps to write a simple score?

Let's see if I can get this right:  

To make one for a 4 vs 3 etude, I could use the same time signature with the same triplet groups but instead of repeating the notes like I did in the LH, I could use different notes based on the chords.  In the RH, instead of the composition I just made for 3 vs 2, I could use a similar Liszt pattern of a minim first, followed by perhaps a broken chord pattern for the 8 remaining semiquavers based on the chord?

EDIT:

Well, since I'm having some trouble with the 4 vs 3 poly in Consolation, perhaps, to help me get it, I should leave the LH in those simple repeated triplet notes and just make changes to the RH notes?

[ajspiano]

I wouldve placed 4 semiquavers in place of each group of 2 quavers in the RH to create a 3 vs 4 rhythm and left the LH as it is, as a starting point- so that you still have a very uniform rhythm/pattern of notes.

I've attached a pdf here that contains your piece next to some reharmonisation ideas. I suspect you may have some questions this time...  we'll see.

Screen capture software allows you to record a video of exactly what is on your computer screen.

I agree we are certainly getting a bit off topic from the consolation - however, the more we continue this (if you want to?), the more we'll bring in elements of the consolation - you know.. until you can sit down and write like franz liszt

[candlelightpiano]

WOW!!!!!  You've changed my piece LOTS!!  Why did you reharmonise it this way? To make it sound better?

[ajspiano]

WOW!!!!!  You've changed my piece LOTS!!  Why did you reharmonise it this way? To make it sound better?

Because so far I've given you pretty constricted rules about what notes to play - I wanted to start  giving you some ideas about how you can do things differently, and how you might find different chords to fit a melody. If you have any questions about it or dont understand why something fits the way I changed it feel free to ask..

_______


My intention was not to make it sound better - actually I didn't listen to it at all I just wrote it (though I can hear is in my head). Whether or not something "sounds better" is subjective anyway.

If you're going to write something again, for example to try it in a different key or to do one with 3 vs 4..  you can consider taking elements you pick up from what I changed there - or creating your own ideas based on mine...  Normally when I write something I experiment with different harmony with the same melody until I find something I like. - OR - you can develop a melodic idea by repeating the same phrase with a different harmony..

[costicina]

This  composition/harmony course is so intersting!!!!

 I'm collecting all your 'lessons', AJ, and still start to study them sistematically as soon as I've a bit more time....

Choo,  instead of handwrite your scores  you can try the software Personal Composer. It's very good, and easy to use. You can download it gratic fom internet, and if you are satisfied you can buy it. The trial-gratis version haas the only handicap that you can't save the score, only print it. But it's worth trying it.

 

[ajspiano]

This  composition/harmony course is so intersting!!!!

I'm collecting all your 'lessons', AJ, and still start to study them sistematically as soon as I've a bit more time...

It's very much a crash course...   Glad a few people seem to be getting some benefit though.

Maybe we will need a "composition project" thread in the future. I used to go to a songwriters group thing a while back where we would set a writing assignment such as the subject matter of the lyrics, or the style of music or the key etc etc. The following week we would all play our songs and give advice/comments on each others work..  Perhaps we'd end up with something similar but with solo piano instead a bunch of singer songwriters with guitars like it was in my group..

[candlelightpiano]

Definitely a great idea to start a composition thread, AJ, but please make it one for people like me who have to start from scratch!  

Back to my reharmonized compo, I wish I could hear in my head.  Is that what perfect pitch allows you to do?  So I played it out and it sounded similar - and different!!    Especially the ending or non ending!  So does this mean I can just use any keys and not have to follow any set rules?  

MARG:  Thanks for the recommendation.  I'll look into it. I'm always downloading stuff but never learning to use them. 

[ajspiano]

Back to my reharmonized compo, I wish I could hear in my head.  Is that what perfect pitch allows you to do?  So I played it out and it sounded similar - and different!!    Especially the ending or non ending!  So does this mean I can just use any keys and not have to follow any set rules?  

Perfect pitch would do that - but I do not have that skill developed well enough to be able to use it accurately in a musical context. I have strong relative pitch, as in, once I have a reference point I can recognise the sound of all others easily, or hear all others in my head without the need to hear them out loud.

As far as what you can and cant do now - the only real restriction at this point is staying in the one key, as in we havent talked about modulating at all..

The primary objective of the reharmonisation was to highlight that each melody note (given no modulation and our current understanding) can be harmonised by 3 different chords within a key. As follows -

In F major
The note F is found as the root of F major, the 3rd of D minor, and the 5th of Bb major
The note G is found as the root of G minor, 3rd of E half dim, and 5th of C major.

and so on...

______________________________

"rules" I placed on your composition exist to limit the number of possible choices, so that its easier to make desicions. As a result you can actually compose something, instead of having no idea where to begin.

the rules also force you to explore a certain idea thoroughly, so that you know and understand it throughout all chords/modes in a key (or preferrably 'keys') - rather than in isolation - this way you will be able to use it in future instead of only knowing 1 unique place that it works.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks for explaining.  So as far as composition goes, what should I be doing now?

Also, the rolling wrist action demonstrated in the video that flyinfingers posted, where would you use such an action?  Could you use it in the fast passages of FI?

[ajspiano]

Thanks for explaining.  So as far as composition goes, what should I be doing now?

Also, the rolling wrist action demonstrated in the video that flyinfingers posted, where would you use such an action?  Could you use it in the fast passages of FI?

I Will save the wrist question for the moment, perhaps you could observe some YouTube videos to first see if any professionals are using it at all before you go looking for places to do it. If you watch some of lisitsa's etudes you will see she is quite fond of high and free moving wrists.. Her right arm in 10/6 is interesting to watch from that perspective, though not quite the same motion as you are talking about here.

...........

From the angle of polyrhythms - I would suggest that you rewrite your pieces melody to include groups of 4 or 8 semiquavers so you have 3vs4. Either using your original harmony or mine, or elements of both.

From the angle of increasing our theory/harmony/composition knowledge I will give you the following task to do whenever you please as another step.

______

Write a short piece in 4/4 that is 4 bars long.

• Take rhythmic ideas for the melody from the consolation and the middle section of FI.
• For the left hand continue to use triplet quavers, playing only the root of the chord. We will change this later though to incorporate a proper accompaniment, again taking ideas from both the Liszt and Chopin.
• For the harmony, use only chords 1, 4 and 5 - in F this would mean f major, Bb major and c major. Pick which ever chord fits your melody note, you can change chord on any beat of the bar, however you don't have to change chord every beat, rather change only to support the melody. These 3 chords are the 3 primary chords within a key, they are the most commonly used and are sufficient to harmonize every note in the scale. - you/we can consider reharmonising later.
  
• You must begin on chord 1, and end on chord 5. This ending will create an unfinished feel, it's intended to facilitate the writing of another 4 bars as a second phrase but we will talk about modulating before you do the next bars.

I hope that all made sense and you understand what to do and how to get it started.. Shoot me any questions.

AJ

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ.  I haven't seen any pianist on YouTube use the rolling wrist action for FI.  They definitely have the loose and active fingers my teacher is talking about but they don't do a rolling wrist action.  Am I right?  Or at least, they don't move their wrists like that teacher in the video. 

I'll take a look at some of Lilitsa's etudes.  Thanks for the notes on composition. I'll work on them when I get the chance.  It's a crazy time for me this week and maybe next week too.  I'm hardly home. 

[ajspiano]

Thanks, AJ.  I haven't seen any pianist on YouTube use the rolling wrist action for FI. 

Whats also potentially of note here is that in most of the professionally shot videos I've seen you also see almost no focus on the hands during the middle section, only the fast finger-work of the beginning and ending.

- thats not to say you should start rolling your wrist forward in a large way throughout the middle section either..  just that larger flowing motions are more likely to apply and be possible/potentially useful there, where as larger motions in the fast passages will cause you problems.

[candlelightpiano]

You're right about the focus of the camera on the fast passage work and rarely, if any, on the middle section.  I guess because the fast passage is so much more exciting!  I should try her rolling wrist action on the middle section, then.  I've never seen Birba rolling his wrist for the middle section, though. 

I decided to practice for about half an hour tonight and also played FI through softly twice, so as not to put too much pressure on my thumb.  I actually played better because of yesterday's rest but the last page is a mess!  Really need your help there.  

What is a good imagery for the middle section?  Unloading my secrets isn't working because I have always thought that secrets should be kept secret!  What imagery do you use? 

Another thing, too, when I played the whole piece softly, there was no tension, not even on the last page.  I felt very relaxed.  Of course, I can't play the piece like this but I wonder if I should practice it all softly and only play with the dynamics once every other day?

[ajspiano]

I should try her rolling wrist action on the middle section, then.  I've never seen Birba rolling his wrist for the middle section, though. 

Remember I said that the middle is where its seems like it may be possible - not that it should or must be there. Birba's performance clearly shows that it is unnecessary to do anything like what is seen in that video in order to produce a good performance. I don't think I do that particular motion in that section either, but I haven't watched myself closely - maybe you can tell me what you think after I post some footage.

What is a good imagery for the middle section?  Unloading my secrets isn't working because I have always thought that secrets should be kept secret!  What imagery do you use?

I very rarely use detailed imagery to help aid dynamics in music - but I realise that it can help other people. The thing is that in order for it to work for you I think it has to be your imagery not anyone elses. The point is that the music evokes an emotion or image - and you feel that, and so communicate it through the music. The image that is evoked in my mind may be a stark contrast to what goes on in yours, so trying to use mine or anyone elses imagery may leave you subtly conflicted rather than give you direction. For me most of the time its not a detailed picture, just a 'feeling' that I can't put words on.

Another thing, too, when I played the whole piece softly, there was no tension, not even on the last page.  I felt very relaxed.  Of course, I can't play the piece like this but I wonder if I should practice it all softly and only play with the dynamics once every other day?

After having done this, what does it feel like to play the piece in the normal way again? less tense or exactly the same?

..

AJ

[candlelightpiano]

After having done this, what does it feel like to play the piece in the normal way again? less tense or exactly the same.
AJ

I don't know as I haven't tried. My thumb is still sore so I'm still not putting too much pressure on it but as soon as it's back to what it was, I'll play the piece with the dynamics and let you know how I feel.  I've sight read the first 2 pages of Grieg and found the big hand stretches in the RH difficult for my sprained thumb.  Will have to wait till my thumb improves.

[candlelightpiano]

Time for another practice video.  All went well with my memory until almost the end, when I faltered a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrtjTGoWczM&feature=player_embedded

All feedback welcome!

[zoecalgary]

Hi Choo, that was lovely! I liked the tempo you chose and I really liked  your dynamics. You are really getting this piece solidified. It is such a peaceful piece I love listening to it. Your rendition is soon becoming the rendition of choice!

It must be great to be in that polishing phase of a piece. Not that it sounds like you have much more polishing to go mind you. Just that anything you add/change at this point is only get to get better I think. Are you playing this for your teacher this week? I think he will be impressed. Every time you play it now you have progressed in leaps/bounds.

Nice.

[costicina]

Brava Choo!!! It was mesmerizing.... I enjoyed very much listening to it!!!

You have beautiful hands, and a way to "caress" the keys that I find fascinating.
Looking back to your first videos, you can measure the extent of the progresses you made. I'm  impressed 
And you baby grand has a truly marvellous sound....

[candlelightpiano]

Zoe and Marg:  How kind of you to say such lovely things about my playing!  You're my two favorite cyber friends. 

Zoe, it's not really fun to be in the polishing phase, actually.  I had to take the piece apart and for several weeks, it sounded terrible.  DT said my polyrhythms were all out of whack!  And they were.  The 4 in 3 polys still don't sound right and need more work.  I still prefer Yi Jong's performance where he replaced most of the 4 in 3 polys.  They still sound better to me, especially when you consider the difficulty I'm having with the 4 in 3s.  Did I tell you I switched teachers?  Pretty soon, I'll have no teacher!  You see why I quit so many years ago!     I'm incorrigible. I need to have your stick-to-itiveness!

Marg:  I love my baby!  I still use the digital a lot to record and listen to my practice but I love the sound of the baby grand.  It sounds even better now that it's been tuned.  It was a good decision to use my gift money toward it. 

[zoecalgary]

Choo, you are one my best cyber friends too!  I too love the sound of your piano and was going to say this morning but I didn't want to detract from my comments about you the player creating such beautiful sounds! I know I couldn't sound like that on any piano!

I like my little acoustic but lately it sounds not as fulfilling as it sometimes does.  I think it's this crazy Calgary weather which changes all the time.  I keep hoping to find a good deal on a new bigger/better piano (no such luck yet!). So yes, I think you did the best thing with your gift! If I was to ever get such a gift I'd be running to the piano store! haha. In the meantime I will just keep trying ones and saving :-)

You didn't tell me you switched teachers! How come? Don't feel bad for doing so. You have to find one you trust and click with!  Your first teacher sounded good but maybe he wanted to change your playing too much.  How did you find your new teacher? Do you like him/her? Have you had your lesson with your new teacher yet? Tell us your news!

If you don't like them...don't give up on teachers yet. It may just take time to find the right one!

[candlelightpiano]

Zoe, I watched and listened to my recording with my headphones and thought it needs a lot more work!  Too loud in the left hand, RH little 16th notes sound stiff.  Some parts sound stiff, too.  My posture was terrible.  I don't know why I was slouching so much!  Must have to do with too much time spent in the hospital!  I need to work on everything here and post another video.  Tonight, I worked on making the LH softer and smoother.  Maybe I'll post another video tomorrow night.  Gosh, you guys must be getting tired of me. 

I used to think my digital sounded really good until my baby grand came along and especially, after the tuning.  Now it sounds so beautiful and my digital sounds kind of puny but I'm glad I have it as it's great for practice recording.  It's good to have both types.

I switched teachers because I felt too intimidated by the former even though he was the friendliest fellow. But I felt nervous around him and he was such a perfectionist. I felt I could never live up to his expectations as I'm not a perfectionist, by any stretch of the imagination.     So when I couldn't make that lesson with him, I was switched to another teacher from the same studio.  She's very young and we get along great.  However, I doubt that I'll have lessons after June 15 (when the studio closes for the summer) as I really enjoy being a free agent.  I also like to play lighter pieces and now, I'm so busy working on lesson pieces I have no time for that.  Not that lesson pieces are bad as I'm working on Consolation and FI but after completion of FI, I don't have any idea what pieces I'd like to work on which defeats the purpose of having lessons. What would I work on for an hour's lesson weekly? Well, if I come up with another difficult piece like FI, I'll stick to my lessons.

[zoecalgary]

Maybe ask your teacher for what she might recommend for you. I think you need 2 new pieces while you're polishing/finishing FI and Consolation. Maybe tell her you like a fast moving one and a mellow one (just like you did with these two above pieces!). She probably knows some that would be enjoyable for you to play. And maybe they don't have to be such big challenges. Though you do seem to thrive on big challenges :-)  Maybe if you do some pieces a bit less difficult than these you will learn several in the same amount of time. And I bet that might me lots of fun for you and quite gratifying.

Oh, I have a crazy idea. How about learning a piece or two in a different style than you usually do but also like? Like blues or jazz or latin or new age or whatever else you like!  I know that I was responding to a message over on PW and it wasn't until I stated that I love listening to many different kinds of music that I had this aha moment like oh...why don't I try to find something in that style and learn it for piano.   So back to music acquisition mode I went and I got a book on Lecuona Made Easier for You. It has simplified arrangements of some of his better known works. I particularly want to learn Malaguena but find the others in the book are interesting too. And lately I am pursuing getting some Greek music that a member on PW told me about. I am about to order some books from Athens!

Don't get me wrong I have really come to love the classical repertoire and it really is all very new to me. But I think doing something so very different once in awhile can be a nice break and be lots of fun.  Something I want to do is make a list of all my I really want to play pieces and take this to my teacher and we can talk about them and maybe together we can pick some of my next pieces.  The list is long and continually growing and some of it includes classical but for sure there has to be something very different in there. 

I bet there are lots of future pieces you really really really want to play??

[candlelightpiano]

Zoe, I guess I haven't seriously considered another piece as I'm still struggling with FI.  There are other pieces that I've considered in the past but I have tunnel vision and I'm totally focused on FI at this time.  I'm not sure if it's a good thing to have tunnel vision.

I've played Malaguena before - years ago, of course. I've always loved Richard Clayderman piano pieces.  Have you played them before? They're relatively easy and in fact, I started on one again tonight: Jardin Secret.  I played it years ago and the melody came to my mind this morning so I looked through my books and was happy to find it.

I do enjoy challenges as I get bored easily.  FI is not boring, I can assure you! I just started a new thread for my glorious Grieg piece!  I hope you'll join me there.  I LOVE that piece!  It's my favorite piece at this time, more than FI, even.  I can listen to it all day. 

[ajspiano]

Zoe, I guess I haven't seriously considered another piece as I'm still struggling with FI.  There are other pieces that I've considered in the past but I have tunnel vision and I'm totally focused on FI at this time.  I'm not sure if it's a good thing to have tunnel vision.

I do enjoy challenges as I get bored easily.

It can be good to have an idea of where you are going over time - bernhard has a post somewhere that recommends listing ~100 pieces for you to aim to learn over the next several years!

Some of the chopin preludes might do you well - there are some that are technically challenging but they are also quite short - AND that lead well into some of the etudes. No.3 in G major is a bit of a LH study that would set you up well for the revolutionary for example, and its only ~30 bars in length, and still at grade 8. - I personally love the Bb minor prelude - but that is a bit more of a challenge.

I've been fiddling around with no 1 in C too - again only around 30 bars and under 1 minute, but ranked grade 8+ on PS.

--

https://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/b/bf/IMSLP09675-Faure_-_Op.17_-_3_Romances_Sans_Paroles.pdf - the last one of the 3.

^I did this one for my AMEB grade 6 (long ago now - I cant remember what other pieces i did!! ) ..  maybe suits you? you seem to like the singing melody lines in the romantic pieces - the latter section is pretty cool with the canon type counter melody thing going on in the RH

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ, for the video and score for Romance.  It is a delightfully pretty piece, for sure, but not something that appeals at this time though you're right about the type of pieces I like. 

As far as Chopin preludes, I have played three of them:

No 3 in G
No 15 in D flat (I still play this piece)
No 22 in G minor

I also played an early Beethoven sonata and several Bach inventions.  I did all this a long time ago, of course. 

I don't know why I have no interest in Chopin etudes at this time or waltzes or mazurkas (never could get a feel for the Polish dance!).  Well, Grieg is next anyway.  I should look at Barnard's list of 100 pieces but don't know where to find it.  I'm still interested in continuing the composition project I was working on, now things have settled down a bit on the domestic front.  I'll take a look at your post again, see if I understand where to go from my last composition.

[ajspiano]

Well, Grieg is next anyway.  I should look at Barnard's list of 100 pieces but don't know where to find it.

Its not his list of 100 - its an instruction to list 100 pieces YOU would like to learn. It should include easy, hard, long, short, different styles etc. etc. - then you arrange them into an order for learning that makes sense - so you have more direction for your piano study in general and an idea of where you are going long term.

[candlelightpiano]

For the left hand continue to use triplet quavers, playing only the root of the chord. We will change this later though to incorporate a proper accompaniment, again taking ideas from both the Liszt and Chopin.[/li][/list]

AJ:  I just wanted to make sure about this:  So for my LH, if I'm in the key of G, at this time, I will only have triplet Gs in the left hand, no other notes? Just GGG GGG GGG GGG for one measure, for example?

[ajspiano]

AJ:  I just wanted to make sure about this:  So for my LH, if I'm in the key of G, at this time, I will only have triplet Gs in the left hand, no other notes? Just GGG GGG GGG GGG for one measure, for example?

• For the left hand continue to use triplet quavers, playing only the root of the chord.
• For the harmony, use only chords 1, 4 and 5 - in F this would mean f major, Bb major and c major.

AND - You are not restricted to only 1 chord per bar - rather you may change chord at any point to accomodate the melody notes, or you may choose not to do that..

So if the melody (in F major) goes, A, C, D, F - all crotchets, I may harmonise that with a left hand that goes F F F, C C C, Bb Bb Bb, F F F - or I may play F's for the whole bar..   I may be asking a lot here - mayb if I write something along similar lines to the task I presented? - or have a go and scan it, and I'll comment..

[candlelightpiano]

Let me work on it tomorrow and I'll post it here.  I need to take a look at my Consolation and FI for rhythmic ideas. 

Also need to ask you some questions about my Grieg piece, like fingering and touch.  Should I ask you here or on that thread?  I'm working on it by myself, at the moment as it's a new piece.  I find my fingering very awkward!!  I watched a pianist on YouTube play it and his fingering also looked rather awkward but he has very large hands and it helps. 

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:  Here's my 3rd step.  Hope I understood the task! 

[ajspiano]

ok so you've noted the 3 primary chords are G C and D - but your left hand uses notes besides the root of each chord.. Not necessarily wrong (though it isnt what I suggested) - what was your reasoning for the choice of notes in the LH?

[candlelightpiano]

I misunderstood! I was simply using notes from the chord to make it sound better, I thought so it wouldn't sound monotonous.

[ajspiano]

I misunderstood! I was simply using notes from the chord to make it sound better, I thought so it wouldn't sound monotonous.

Well I'm glad you thought about how to make it sound better!

I was planning to talk about how to write a more interesting accompaniment as a new step to add to this piece, as well as talk about modulations in the next bars.

Using only the roots for the LH just gives a really clear picture of what chord is where initially..

Can you write it using the roots only, for whatever chords you intended at each place, so I can see clearly what you were doing, and then I can point out some other ideas, and talk about considerations for the accompaniment with this particular melody..?

[candlelightpiano]

Sure, no problem, but tomorrow though as it's almost the witching hour here.  I would like very much to learn about modulation.  You know I know very little about that.  Thanks once again.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:  Here's my revised third step:




Is this what you wanted? 

Thanks. 

[ajspiano]

ok - so lets add to the LH, use all the chord tones and write patterns that are a minum long but in quavers still.. like GBD BDG--  or GDB DBG..   or where there is a chord change, say from G to C - you could do GBD ECG..  also consider that you don't have to start on the root, you could do BDG DGD for example on a g chord..


ALSO -

Find both the relative minor, and the dominant keys that we could modulate to, and tell me their respective 1 4 and 5 chords.. if you don't know how to do that just tell me and i'll explain further.

[candlelightpiano]

Do you mean the relative minor of G, C and D major?  Answer will be E minor, A minor and B minor. 

Are you asking for the dominant and 1, 4 and 5 chords of the major keys or the minor keys?

This composition you're teaching me, is it called two part harmony? 

[ajspiano]

Do you mean the relative minor of G, C and D major?  Answer will be E minor, A minor and B minor. 

Close, not quite what I meant though - G, C and D major are chords here, the key is G major. So the relative minor key is just E minor.

In the same way that we found the chords in a major scale that can now be done on the minor scale
E F# G A B C D# E
This would be the 1 chord, EGB...  The 4 chord would be ACE, and the 5 would be B D# F#..

When I said the dominant I meant the key that is the same note as the dominant of our current key - so in this case the dominant would be D (5th degree of G major) - So if we modulated to the dominant, the 1, 4, and 5 chords would then be built upon the D major scale.

I used the relative minor and dominant because they are 2 common modulations.

This composition you're teaching me, is it called two part harmony?

You could probably call it that assuming you don't use the pedal! - I'm not really following any stylistic rules, other than the idea of taking ideas from Chopin and Liszt.