Is it too late for me?

[virtuoso80]

I'm 31 years old. I was mostly self-taught until college. When I first got to college, I was very bothered by the training method, and rejected some of what my teachers asked of me (I still don't like some of it). I taught lessons for a few years, then went back to college to finish my BA. I had practiced and improved over the years, but was still well eclipsed by some undergrads. I've been out of school now, and teaching again, and my playing is certainly better than ever. Problem is: I'm 31. If I were this good and 18, it might be reasonable to think I could have a future in music, although I'd probably still have to bust my butt to get into a top undergrad piano program like Julliard with this level of technique, and I'm certainly not up to the level of most grad students at a decent program.

What is my full potential? I don't know, but I know I haven't reached it yet. I also know I've been lazy bastard about practicing. I'm not sure why - my drive and competitiveness are intense (one teacher said it actually scared him) but it doesn't translate to results. Other problem is, time runs out for us all, and piano lessons don't pay the bills that well. I don't know what the success rate on late-bloomers becoming successful pianists, but I'm guessing it's not that high. So, do I go all into music, and give it one more shot? Or do I take my drive and big brain and go try to make millions on Wall Street, or something like that? Do I even have the slightest prayer of ever getting to Carnegie Hall-level goodness and success?

[cmg]

I don't think anyone can predict or not predict a future in music for you.  Your age is a liability, certainly.  If you decide to go for more formal music training, that's more years lost and the cutoff age for the important competitions would be looming for you.  Without winning a few, the chance of getting an artist's rep to get you important gigs (i.e. those that pay enough to provide you with a modest living) is, well, nil. 

Your admission to being competitive, yet lazy, is a strange one.  Worrisome, too, is your resistance to buckling down and practicing.  That's all pianists do, you know.  It's necessary to build and maintain repertoire unless, like Barenboim and a few select others, you have a photographic memory and your status as an artist is so great, you can afford to give sloppy recitals that offer hints of a better time when you actually did practice and played flawlessly. 

However, if you want to continue training to prepare for a college teaching post, that is quite possible.  You'd need a doctorate these days.  The competition for piano faculty posts is intense, the pay miserable, and you'd not have a choice where you'd like to teach:  you would have to apply to any openings that exist anywhere, and usually ones for new entries to the market are in places like East Cupcake, Nebraska.  Which is not NYC.  And the school where you get your doctorate should be one of the best.  Those candidates get the jobs first.

Wall Street?  That's not so easy to enter either.  You'd need an MBA and a willingness to work 80-100 hour weeks.  It would also help to have a killer instinct and a disregard for the law.  On Wall Street, too, you wouldn't have a real personal life until you could walk away with a huge retirement bonus.  By that time, maybe in your late forties, you'd have a alcohol problem and a cocaine problem, too, from self-medicating to tolerate the endless hours of pressure and abuse you receive from your managers who will fire you at the first false step or screw-up.

I think you need to talk with a mental health professional about your career goals for a reality check.  That should be your first step.   

[keyboardclass]

These questions are always about money - not something I have much experience of.

[virtuoso80]

Your admission to being competitive, yet lazy, is a strange one.  Worrisome, too, is your resistance to buckling down and practicing. 

I guess a typical practice session would include: Play for an hour, sometimes two, but ignore some of the things I know I need to work on I don't want to face because it stresses me out too much, and eventually get frustrated or depressed, take the music a go lie in bed with it or something and imagine being able to play it the way I hear it in my head. No, I'm not happy about it, but I would never feel I did 'right' unless I worked myself until I passed out on the piano bench.

Yes, I know I'm not a completely balanced human being, but that's why I'm a musician in the first place.  

[cmg]

Yes, I know I'm not a completely balanced human being, but that's why I'm a musician in the first place.  

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest you were unbalanced.  Nor are successful, working musicians unbalanced -- at least, not unbalanced about what it takes to keep a career going.  And the first thing it takes, is slavery to the keyboard.  You've got to perfect what talent you have.  Your technique has to be totally reliable.  That is a lifetime of work, 8 hours a day minimum as you train, sacrificing just about everything else. 

I just think a therapist would help you to understand better what you really want.  If you REALLY wanted to be a professional pianist, you wouldn't rest until every kink in your apparatus was ironed out.  You'd practice until you dropped.  You write that you want a piano career, but your actions suggest the opposite.  Which is the truth for you?  You seem to suggest that you can't face obstacles and you back away when it gets difficult.  That is a huge impediment in the path of becoming a performer.  You should talk to someone about this.  I don't think you want to be a performing pianist at all.  I think you just love the piano repertoire.  Love alone ain't enough to make a performing career.  Good luck to you.

[ted]

These questions are always about money - not something I have much experience of.

Well put ! Neither have I, and thank goodness for that ! I don't think it is "why we are here". Music, however, is for me very much about such questions and is not concerned with the noxious current ethos of "let's all push the accelerator even if we don't know where the car is going." - J.B. Priestley, in "Over the Long High Wall".

[m1469]

I just think a therapist would help you to understand better what you really want.  If you REALLY wanted to be a professional pianist, you wouldn't rest until every kink in your apparatus was ironed out.  You'd practice until you dropped.  You write that you want a piano career, but your actions suggest the opposite.  Which is the truth for you?  You seem to suggest that you can't face obstacles and you back away when it gets difficult.  That is a huge impediment in the path of becoming a performer.  You should talk to someone about this.  I don't think you want to be a performing pianist at all.  I think you just love the piano repertoire.  Love alone ain't enough to make a performing career.  Good luck to you.

  - while what you say may be true, I wouldn't act as though it's SO abnormal for people to not quite understand when to "go" and when to "stay."  How many people in the world do you suppose have no fear of living what they feel they dream of?  Or, no fear of pursuing that life - *especially* if it means letting go of very many things that may seem safe, and possibly failing huge?  As far as I can tell, pursuing one's dreams in real time, is not at all the path it idealistically seems.  How many people are living that life?  How many individuals actively face their fears?  How many people never try?  Yes, we all need to evaluate our paths and I think that we all must work out our unique ways of breaking through obstacles, but we ALL have obstacles to face and sometimes they can seem enormous and even insurmountable.  Don't treat it like such a personal problem, unique only to some poor soul who should get their head evaluated just because they're actually facing and becoming aware of obstacles .  I think that many of the people who don't even try are individuals who aren't even aware that there are mental obstacles to face, so the awareness of them alone is a sign of *something* moving!

[cmg]

- while what you say may be true, I wouldn't act as though it's SO abnormal for people to not quite understand when to "go" and when to "stay."  How many people in the world do you suppose have no fear of living what they feel they dream of?  As far as I can tell, pursuing one's dreams is not at all the path it seems.  How many people are living that life?  How many individuals actively face their fears?  How many people never try?  Yes, we all need to evaluate our paths and I think that we all must work out our unique ways of breaking through obstacles, but we ALL have obstacles to face and sometimes they can seem enormous.  Don't treat it like such a personal problem, unique to some poor soul  .  

I'm wasn't pathologizing the poster or saying indecision was "abnormal."  What on earth is your problem?  I was offering my best advice and assistance.  A young person with a dilemma and undeveloped skills in critical thinking that are skewing his ability to make appropriate choices.  Obviously my advice to him hit a nerve with you.  I haven't the vaguest idea why.  Nor, actually, do I care.   

[m1469]

I'm wasn't pathologizing the poster or saying indecision was "abnormal."  What on earth is your problem?  I was offering my best advice and assistance.  A young person with a dilemma and undeveloped skills in critical thinking that are skewing his ability to make appropriate choices.  Obviously my advice to him hit a nerve with you.  I haven't the vaguest idea why.  Nor, actually, do I care.  

Perhaps you could consider re-quoting me, so that you can manage to get the rest of my (edited) golden wisdom into your blue  .

[virtuoso80]

Case in point right now: I was just practicing. Did some scales, went through the first 10 of Czerny's '40 daily exercises', played some Prokofiev I've been testing out, Played a fun Godowsky-Chopin left-hand alone version of Op. 25, No. 12 (not at speed), played the original Op. 25, No. 12 (at speed, but a few errors have crept in and I didn't feel like getting into fixing them). And then...I got up and left, and came back to waste some time here on the internet.

Yes, my back does bother me a bit. Sitting at a piano bench makes the right side of my neck and upper back ache, then get numb. Haven't found any fix for it yet, but I don't think that's the reason I stopped. I don't know...maybe I'm not the right personality type for something that takes so much discipline. I seemingly have no ability for delayed gratification. I remember reading a study where they would ask children if they wanted a cookie right then and there, or, if they said no and waited, they would get two cookies later. The kids who chose to wait tended to have more success in life. Me? I definitely want the cookie now.  

[doudly]

Well, first of all, most important step to success on this forum: put cmg on ignore list.

As for your concerns, you're looking at your situation the wrong way.
You make it sound like you only have two choices:

1. Become the next Martha Argerich
2. Ban piano from your life.

Why couldn't you be an accomplished pianist AND do something else enjoyable of your life?
Mainstream success as an artist serves a single purpose: living of your craft. Do you think it's necessary to play at the Carnegie Hall to achieve a rewarding artistic level or even a Carnegie Hallesque level?

Had you come here ten years ago, I would have probably told you it's too late already, unless you are immensely talented and willing to put 10 hours a day for the rest of your life practicing.
Now, from a straightly logical point of view and considering your own says, I don't see it happening, ever. AND that is probably a blessing. Because you'll actually be playing and learning for yourself, not for a deluding goal, and sooner you accept that, sooner you'll be able to embrace your life as an artist and a person. Your REAL life.

[lostinidlewonder]

...I was very bothered by the training method, and rejected some of what my teachers asked of me (I still don't like some of it).

This is an interesting point could you elaborate?

...I had practiced and improved over the years, but was still well eclipsed by some undergrads.

It is difficult but as soon as you stop comparing yourself to others you will find you will work with a clearer head and find a better source for inspiration.

I've been out of school now, and teaching again, and my playing is certainly better than ever. Problem is: I'm 31. If I were this good and 18, it might be reasonable to think I could have a future in music....

You do not need a degree in music to be successful. Too many people think you have to be so good that they never take a chance to go out and actually do it. They just quietly get better and better and in the end when they think "ok now I am ready" they have no idea how to get started. You have to start now, it has nothing to do with how good you play the piano or how good you can teach. What are you supposed to start though? Dream and aspire.

What is my full potential? I don't know, but I know I haven't reached it yet. I also know I've been lazy bastard about practicing. I'm not sure why - my drive and competitiveness are intense (one teacher said it actually scared him) but it doesn't translate to results.

Finding a proper source for inspiration may be key to your further progress. As you have noticed where you are drawing it from doesn't get you the results you desire. Everyone is lazy and doesn't practice when they should, not everyone can do it 100% of the time, but the better ones do it most of the time. So where do you fit in for the piano world? Are you a teacher? Are you a performer? An academic? Composer? Music admin? What?

Other problem is, time runs out for us all, and piano lessons don't pay the bills that well. I don't know what the success rate on late-bloomers becoming successful pianists, but I'm guessing it's not that high.

In all honesty the success is based on your ability to manage/sell the event. This is a reality I hit all aspiring pro pianists that I teach and it really is a wack in the mouth for most of them. Too many believe that if you can play the piano better than everyone around you that that gives you a ticket to become a long term performer, just totally wrong. You need to know the business of setting up concerts, managing events, advertising, it is all business. If you do not have money then you need to find people who are interested to invest in you. I can remember as a young teen getting sponsorship from various large businesses (musical and non musical, ALCOA a large mining company helped for instance since they have a fund set up for helping the community) for concerts that I held and I would advertise their business at my events.

It is always a good idea to start small and build from there. When you start small you haven't got much to lose, but if you try for a 1000+ seat hall on your first go you might find it a little costly.

So, do I go all into music, and give it one more shot? Or do I take my drive and big brain and go try to make millions on Wall Street, or something like that? Do I even have the slightest prayer of ever getting to Carnegie Hall-level goodness and success?

Whatever you do work hard at it. If you are money motivated then don't do the piano, it is a poor job. Even the leading pianists in the world earn a pittance compared to successful business men/women, famous singers make the most famous pianists earnings look like pocket change.

[virtuoso80]

This is an interesting point could you elaborate?

First of all, thanks for the thoughts. Well, my early experience with piano teachers in academia was a rather traumatic one. I even had what some would call a nervous breakdown one semester. I felt like I was being forced to conform to madness: I had to strictly follow rules about how to play that made no logical or musical sense to me, and I was slapped down for not getting it right. I felt blind. I went from a technically flawed but passionate player to one who could barely play a note without shaking. I think the hardest thing was that it was equal parts good and bad advice - they were right about technical things I needed to change, didn't know, and that I needed to learn to listen with more detail. But you really couldn't separate the good from the bad without some confidence and experience, neither of which I had at the time.

I was told by one teacher that I, "didn't know enough to have my own opinion." But I still think I saw things far clearer than she gave me credit for. I knew exactly what you're telling me now: Music is a business, and you have to see the big picture. It's about getting noticed and having something unique to offer. I thought my only shot was to embrace the things in my playing that I didn't hear in anyone else's, and you know what? I was probably right. Unfortunately, some of those unique things came from intuition, and they got beat out of me to the extent that it's hard to find them again.

I remember very early on I gave a performance of the Rach Prelude in C# minor. It was bad. Sloppy, muddy, not well learned, and completely unprofessional. But I still hold to this day that's it's the only performance I've ever given really worth listening to. Everything since has been a bland incarnation of someone else's ideas, and things other players do better. That performance was the only one that was truly me, honest and uncensored. Maybe one day I can find that again, but in the meantime - I was taught that no one will ever take you seriously unless your technique is at an extremely high level, so that's what I guess I've been stuck trying to achieve ever since.

[keyboardclass]

I remember very early on I gave a performance of the Rach Prelude in C# minor. It was bad. Sloppy, muddy, not well learned, and completely unprofessional. But I still hold to this day that's it's the only performance I've ever given really worth listening to.

I can't help thinking you're trapped in the old Romantic/Expressionist ideology.  Your contribution isn't worth much - we come to listen to Rachmaninof.  You're the conduit, so get it right (or take up Jazz).

Or maybe you're looking at it the wrong way round.  'Life's a piece of sh*t, when you look at it' as the song goes.  Music's the least pathetic way to occupy your time.

[goldentone]

You've got to perfect what talent you have.  Your technique has to be totally reliable.  That is a lifetime of work, 8 hours a day minimum as you train, sacrificing just about everything else. 

That's a good prescription for having an early exit from piano as Leon Fleischer did.

[keyboardclass]

Good point though Leon Fleisher is not a good example.  I'd say it was how he played the piano not how long was the cause of his misfortune - though spending a life in music is hardly a misfortune!  Chopin said 3 hours a day was sufficient.

[pianowolfi]

Itzhak Perlman says not more than 5 hours.

[cjp_piano]

What do you want to do? Do you want to be a concert performer? Do you want to teach? It sounds like you don't know what you want.

But to answer your original question: NO, it's never too late.

Any your comment about teaching lessons not paying the bills. . . I teach piano for a living, it pays the bills and I love it!

[keyboardclass]

Any your comment about teaching lessons not paying the bills. . . I teach piano for a living, it pays the bills and I love it!

As do I and as did Chopin.

[virtuoso80]

I can't help thinking you're trapped in the old Romantic/Expressionist ideology.  Your contribution isn't worth much - we come to listen to Rachmaninof.  You're the conduit, so get it right (or take up Jazz).

Is there a problem with the Romantic/Expressionist ideology? Artistically, it's given us plenty of amazing stuff, yes? You're right, I don't want to be just a conduit, and I don't particularly like being told my contribution isn't worth much. When I get on stage, I want it to be my show. Arrogant? Sure, but not outrageous sacrilege like some seem to think.

I think this strikes at what I've always seen: The classical world has a bubble of appropriate/inappropriate that has no bearing on what might be an artistic success or not. If playing a radical interpretation of Rach works artistically, then it works; there's no right and wrong about it. It's so ironic to me that classical musicians could applaud Beethoven, or Monteverdi, or other 'rule breakers', but have no capacity to apply those lessons to our own time. I think I've always known that, if I had any shot at making a name for myself and/or contributing something unique, it was in this way. Otherwise, I'd always be a mediocre interpreter.

[virtuoso80]

As do I and as did Chopin.

Mind if I ask: How many lessons do you teach a week, what are your rates, and do they come to you or do you go to them? Also, what area do you live in, because living on Long Island (as I do) is hella expensive.

[keyboardclass]

In response to a question from a student as to why he couldn't put all the performance directions on the page Chopin explained that to do that would make the page black with annotations.  This knowledge is what you are fightig against acquiring.

As to my job.  I'm lucky, I'm employed by a school, work as much as I wish (2 1/2 days) and live in rather insalubrious (for some) but cheap conditions in London, UK (world's center of piano playing).

[cjp_piano]

Mind if I ask: How many lessons do you teach a week, what are your rates, and do they come to you or do you go to them? Also, what area do you live in, because living on Long Island (as I do) is hella expensive.

I teach 30 students each week, my rate ranges from $45-60 an hour. I have students that come to me and I also go to some students.

You say Long Island is expensive, but that also means lesson rates are probably higher too, right? So it may be less expensive to live where I do, but lessons are also less expensive =)

[virtuoso80]

I teach 30 students each week, my rate ranges from $45-60 an hour. I have students that come to me and I also go to some students.

You say Long Island is expensive, but that also means lesson rates are probably higher too, right? So it may be less expensive to live where I do, but lessons are also less expensive =)

Kind of, yes. The killer is rent/housing: About $2500 a month for a basic place, and housing prices average around $500,000 should you ever want a mortgage. Not to mention school and property taxes go up to $10-15K a year. I charge $30 for 30min, and $50 and hour, and I always go to them. A teacher with long experience and some reputation could charge $60+ a lesson for people to come to him/her (in NYC I've seen some charge $150). So yes, you can make a living, but compare this to Psychologists on the island who often charge $175 an hour! Seems unfair, after all our job is much harder than theirs.  

[cjp_piano]

Kind of, yes. The killer is rent/housing: About $2500 a month for a basic place, and housing prices average around $500,000 should you ever want a mortgage. Not to mention school and property taxes go up to $10-15K a year. I charge $30 for 30min, and $50 and hour, and I always go to them. A teacher with long experience and some reputation could charge $60 a lesson for people to come to him/her. So yes, you can make a living, but compare this to Psychologists on the island who often charge $175 an hour! Seems unfair, after all our job is much harder than theirs. 

To me, $60 an hour still seems low. That's about normal for my area which is WAY less expensive than NY.

[virtuoso80]

To me, $60 an hour still seems low. That's about normal for my area which is WAY less expensive than NY.

First off, I just edited to include a higher end. Also, I was just looking to take some lessons, and someone like this: https://www.lawrenceschubert.com/home.html quoted me $60 a lesson.

[iansinclair]

Ah yes.  Technique vs. soul (or whatever you want to call it).  I am reasonably sure that Artur Rubinstein was the one who said "you should never play a Chopin Nocturne in public until you have been in love".  What he meant, of course, was that however perfect your technique may be, unless you can bring something of your own self -- your emotions, your impressions -- to the music, it will never be anything more than a technical exercise -- and nowadays one can do that in MIDI at a computer console.

Yes you do need fine technique; otherwise, your technique or lack of it will get in the way of expressing what you need to express.

You should also, however, remember to select music which allows you to express your own self.  If Bach doesn't speak to you, don't play Bach (except maybe for technique).

I hope you see what I'm getting at here.

As to making money at music.  It is possible, yes, to make a living at it.  Not, for most of us, a very good living, but a living.  But if music is your place, it's worth it.  If you are in it for the cash, though, you are in the wrong place.

[lostinidlewonder]

I was told by one teacher that I, "didn't know enough to have my own opinion."

That is a horrific thing to say! Certainly a student studying music at a university should not be told this unless they want you to leave.

...Music is a business, and you have to see the big picture. It's about getting noticed and having something unique to offer.

This is true, but unfortunately most aspiring pianists think that this "unique" thing to offer is technique refined to a maximum level. I found it a big problem as I got older doing piano concerts, as a youngster I didn't play overly difficult technical works, but now as I am older and more able I can play technical monsters that most people would not attempt. The problem is that are these really suitable for concert? Unfortunately they are more than often not.

It is a strange situation, because we are pianists and play the piano a lot, we get so used to certain levels of music and we get bored ourself. A trap I was falling into was thinking my next concert always had to have harder and harder works than the last. I was advized by several people not to go down this path and it was the best advice I ever got (even though it took me a while to accept it).

I thought my only shot was to embrace the things in my playing that I didn't hear in anyone else's, and you know what? I was probably right. Unfortunately, some of those unique things came from intuition, and they got beat out of me to the extent that it's hard to find them again.

Yes it is important to feel your playing is unique and captures the right emotions you want to present. This is important for us as performers not so much the audience. It is of course crucial that you as a performer are totally confident/inspired with your presentation, but it does not command if an audience will return to your concert. If you have a real passion and love for your music it will show through to your audience and I find this is attractive to them if you can package it in an entertaining way not only how you play. How we play must of course be at a high standard but I have met so many pianists who play at a high level but they have no success in a performance career. They have no problems with their ability to play but their ability to present concerts and sell them.

Choice of repertoire is so important and should be mostly comprised of pieces which give the inexperienced piano music listeners something to appreciate. The majority of people attending a piano solo concert are not piano music lovers. This is a paradox that I have always found strange  but it occurs at every single public concert I have given. The only place where this will not be true is if you play concerts at a music school for music students/staff. This means that you need to play pieces which are not too difficult for beginner piano listeners to deal with. You need to play pieces that most people should know or have heard before, these need to be a part of your concert. These often include very easy works that you might otherwise shun because they seem like no challenge and you want to show off your technique. The more technique you have the more restrain you need to have when you choose your concert program.

I can remember one member here at pianostreet, tds I believe, did a concert full of Schuman's Album for the Young. Although for us experienced piano listeners this might be a little boring, for the majority of the other audience members they would appreciate it a great deal. Something simple to listen to with an easy description of each piece. This might feel strange if you have a big technique to play grade pieces for concert but balancing your program like this is something we really need to consider very seriously if we want to take care of the inexperienced piano music listener. Experienced piano listeners afterall only comprise of a very small % of the audience.

I in all honesty think that playing complicated works sounds beautiful and can really reveal to the audience new types of sounds etc. But the problem is that although I feel this strongly I feel it because I am around piano music every day of my life. I can hear all these beautiful things but an audience member who doesn't listen to piano music every day being exposed to marvellous technical works for the first time, simply misses a huge amount. So you study so hard, play the piece thousands of times, and then this listener hears you for the first time and doesn't hear all of the small details that you have so laborously put into it. It seems like a waste doesn't it? This of course doesn't mean avoid technical works altogether, but certainly they do not comprise of the majority of your repertoire.

Just playing technically demanding works or presenting wonderful expression will not mean people will want to return to your concert. The audience are not like musical examiners listening to every detail you play. They will however listen to every detail that you talk about and this places huge emphasis on your ability to speak to your audience. So, a good selection of pieces, most of which you are confident can be appreciated by inexperienced music listeners combined with an ability to speak to your audience both with your piano playing and speech is a basis for a successful concert presentation. This also needs to be combined with good business knowledge as to how to sell your concert. Many different cogs (musical and non-musical) that need to spin effectively.

[winenroses]

Your title of your thread brought me here. For a split second, it felt like I could relate to you, despite being toal stranger. I too, surrounded by younger people who shone like bright stars way beyond my reach. Like you, I struggled - Being driven with competitiveness but set back by the laziness with all the mundance practices. What's worse, I started music only at the age of 18 and now, I'm standing one of the many prime stages of my life, 21.

Over 3 years, my piano playing is rated average, still. Simply because of those excuses. Excuses we made to convince ourselves through each tiring process of repetitive practices. "There's not enough time,' 'The sound quality of my piano is not good enough.' 'Lessons are expensive, and there are just so much commitments in life' It's not you to blame, and you shouldn't feel bad about these inevitable thoughts.

Instead of dwelling and getting upset with how time has ages us, why not recall that moment when your passion for music was first ignited? You know, there's something about the captivating world of classical music that makes it so magnificant. There can be millions of players with superb techniques, awesome talents and knowledge with burning passion. The best part is, you are and will be one of them, no matter the level differences. People judges, but music doesn't. It belongs to anyone who wants and yearn them.

Even though I'm still a seed that has not sprouted, even though I'm rendered insignifcant in the eyes of the world, there will always be rain and sunshine. There will come a day when you and i will sprouted. I am looking forward for your success! (: