The Appassionata Project

[zoecalgary]

Choo my measurements    in the left hand are 1= 5.5cm 2 = 7.1 -3 = 8 4th = 7.5 5th = 5.5 cm - I assume it is similar for the right -

Hi starstruck, well curiosity got the best of me and I had to measure my hand. Real measurements for me measured from the palm of my hand where finger/palm meet. We are almost the same but my hands are even smaller yet! Ain't stopping me from playing though!!

1 - 6cm. 2- 7 cm. 3 - 7.5 cm, 4- 6.5 cm, 5- 5.5 cm

On a musical note I've been really enjoying this thread and have loved all the playing and tips given! I think you are doing great. (I'm a new adult learner that recently joined piano street After meeting Choo and Kyle on her FI thread)

[candlelightpiano]

Zoe, you're too funny! I'm sure your smaller hands are no obstacle to your success in piano!

Birba, I just wanted to say that your incredible energy and enthusiasm has got me and I'm sure, all of us, more excited about piano like never before. You're allowing us to have a behind the scenes glimpse at how a concert pianist learns new material for his program and it's a great privilege to be here watching you put it together. It's way more exciting and interesting than just sitting through a recital, though that would be nice, too, with you performing in it. We're learning so much watching your videos everyday.  I said in an earlier post that I was going to get into this piece. I tried for a couple of days and have decided not to pursue it even though that makes me feel like a wimp.     Maybe in 30 years!!!  Thank you so much for sharing your incredible passion for piano with us.  

[birba]

 
This is the way I practise.  I don't really advise anyone to adopt it.  In fact, I was hoping to get some feedback as to how others practise.  Practising is a very personal activity.  I have a japanese pianist who practises 8-10 hours a day.  Then there are pianists who hardly need to practise at all.  In the end, for me, it's the quality of the work, i.e. concentration.

[starstruck5]

This is the way I practise.  I don't really advise anyone to adopt it.  In fact, I was hoping to get some feedback as to how others practise.  Practising is a very personal activity.  I have a japanese pianist who practises 8-10 hours a day.  Then there are pianists who hardly need to practise at all.  In the end, for me, it's the quality of the work, i.e. concentration.

Usually I work backwards -begin at the end -because if I can play the end it inspires me to play the piece/movement the whole way througH- sometimes I begin in the middle -it depends on the structure and the difficulty  often the beginnings can be technically a lot easier - For some reason in the Appassionata I haven't done this -fear of the presto perhaps -though it isn't as hard as it sounds surprisingly -except for the tempo -so maybe I should!??? Just skimmed through it so far - Generally speaking before  I sit down at the piano I have already analysed weaknesses -areas that need work -so I will have mapped out a practise goal -also I try and memorise at least 16 bars -

Given my current aching arms -through muscle strain -not caused by piano playing thankfully -I guess I will have to imagine I am playing -

[candlelightpiano]

This is the way I practise.  I don't really advise anyone to adopt it.  In fact, I was hoping to get some feedback as to how others practise.  Practising is a very personal activity.  I have a japanese pianist who practises 8-10 hours a day.  Then there are pianists who hardly need to practise at all.  In the end, for me, it's the quality of the work, i.e. concentration.

Birba, after you spend 15 - 20 mins on a section, do you usually take a break? Or do you go on to the next section for another 15-20 mins? When do you take a break? How many hours a day do you practice? I agree it's the quality that counts more than quantity. From watching you over the last two months, I get the feeling that you have tremendous capacity for concentration and you also put in the time.

[birba]

My concentration comes in spurts.  Like today, I really got down to it, and only practised a few hours.  In this last movement of the appassionata, I concentrate on complete relaxation of the arm and hands and things get fluid, which is what I'm aiming for.  I still haven't gotten through all 27 sections, yet.  But as they begin to coagulate I join the sections I've done.  I take small breaks every 45 minutes, about.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, Birba. Will you be making us another video for the Appasionata today? I'm suffering from withdrawal .....  Really enjoy your videos.

STARSTRUCK:  Hope your arms are better. How about your practice? How long? Do you also practice random sections? I have a tendency to start from the beginning and be stuck on a section for a while so Birba's method is a good one for me to try and adopt.

[m1469]

Glad to see this thread is still choo-chooing along  .


I'm working on the coda today, and while I'm not posting the entire coda, I'm posting a little (well, itsy bitsy) snippet.  I'm trying to get the sound right, and that sound is where I'm heading.  Perhaps the entire coda in the next couple of days?  This is (pretty much) the first time I've touched the coda in ... awhile.

I think that I need it to be a little lighter, better balance between hands, and a little tighter rhythmic synchronocity - but I think it's approaching the right things.

[starstruck5]

Glad to see this thread is still choo-chooing along  .


I'm working on the coda today, and while I'm not posting the entire coda, I'm posting a little (well, itsy bitsy) snippet.  I'm trying to get the sound right, and that sound is where I'm heading.  Perhaps the entire coda in the next couple of days?  This is (pretty much) the first time I've touched the coda in ... awhile.

I think that I need it to be a little lighter, better balance between hands, and a little tighter rhythmic synchronocity - but I think it's approaching the right things.

Definitely on the right track -this coda is like two mighty forces about to meet headlong!  I only listened casually so far -not with any critical focus -because I think it is good somethimes to listen as you would to a concert on the radio, and seeing if the impression first of all is right, and that nothing jumps out at you -and you have the green light on that -well done.

I'll listen with my critical brain turned on later! 

[starstruck5]

Thanks, Birba. Will you be making us another video for the Appasionata today? I'm suffering from withdrawal .....  Really enjoy your videos.

STARSTRUCK:  Hope your arms are better. How about your practice? How long? Do you also practice random sections? I have a tendency to start from the beginning and be stuck on a section for a while so Birba's method is a good one for me to try and adopt.

My arms are a little better today thanks!  I practise for about 4 hours -but I have loads of pieces on the go!  I don't do random sections -but it is a good idea -

[candlelightpiano]

Glad to see this thread is still choo-chooing along  .

 Of course!!       

And you're on the right track, too! Your coda had a lot of power and flourish in it. I enjoyed it very much! Thanks.

[birba]

[m1469]

Hi Birba, thanks for your video, I am watching right now.  I appreciate your thoughts.  Yesterday I could only go very slowly through the chordal part of the coda, working to really clean things up and get it ultra clear in my mind (which, I can't say I've *truly* and *deeply* fully done before).  I hear you about making sure the following section is truly in synch rhythmically, vs. just "strumming" the bass chords.  I like your score, btw .

As I've said in my initial recording posting, I've had this piece as a "project" for quite awhile, and it's starting to take on a new life for me, just in the last couple of days.  As with many of the pieces I've been working on, for a long time it (the Appassionata) has just been this monster ... ball of something (indefinable, a bit) that does something like present its existence to my consciousness and deepest self ... and it's almost like I couldn't hardly think in detail (not that my teachers haven't been giving me detail to think about, btw!) because I've just been so hugely busy and distracted trying to digest the overall, monster part of it (which I think it also needs, obviously).  It's only just recently that I feel capable to truly be thinking in at least more detail and to be getting capable of thinking to refine sections like I might do very, very early on in the learning process with a very small piece.  I'd love it if that were different for me, but so far it just hasn't been and I feel I've needed to work with what I've got!  In any event, I have yet to address the monster (in detail ), today!  I'll definitely use your suggestions .  

Or perhaps it all just happens in levels and in waves?  I've been thinking in some detail, but not necessarily felt personally able to truly refine ... yet those details have aided in the bigger picture, too.  But then, there's reading about and taking in Beethoven's life and the world around him (of course still loads to do, here, too) ... reading through his Sonatas (I don't think it was all of them, maybe only one book so far and it was awhile ago), reading through Mozart Sonatas (all of those!) ... having a working knowledge of Haydn Sonatas ... understanding sonata form in general, other musical forms, musical practices, better understanding the Baroque era and where the sonata came from, then, dealing with myself and the need for spiritual/personal/musical/technical growth ... haha ... I promise, it's a huge project for the likes of me  .

[starstruck5]

   You are making good progress Birba!  You really need AJ to give his thoughts on the technical front -as I am very much the apprentice of this thread! I think he is getting married soon -so I don't know if he will be around much!

Schnabel gives the fingering for the chords in bars 310 to314 -

125 for the G Bb E-(C7 )chord -3 on the C -5 on the E ( with 4 in brackets) the F minor chords are pretty straight forward - though he plays the F with the 5 first and the second one with 4 -

With the Eb7 chords, he keeps his thumb and 2nd finger always on the Bb and Db -he suggests playing that leap from the Bb to the G with the same pinky finger for both notes- I'll watch your video agin -can't remember what you did here!

And all I know when Lisistska plays this she is very very wristy with it -    

[m1469]

And all I know when Lisitsa plays this she is very very wristy with it -    

She seems to be a bit wristy and have a little bit magical wrists in general.

[m1469]

Definitely on the right track -this coda is like two mighty forces about to meet headlong!  I only listened casually so far -not with any critical focus -because I think it is good somethimes to listen as you would to a concert on the radio, and seeing if the impression first of all is right, and that nothing jumps out at you -and you have the green light on that -well done.

I'll listen with my critical brain turned on later! 

Of course!!       

And you're on the right track, too! Your coda had a lot of power and flourish in it. I enjoyed it very much! Thanks.

Thanks, to both

[m1469]

I just tried to make an audio file (because it's WAY easier and quicker for me than a video file) of what I'm just now working on, but I think it might be a little bit stupid.  However, the process was helpful for me  .  So far, I'm not positive what the point in me posting something like that would be, so for now I'll just refrain.

[birba]

What's important to remember is that it doesn't have to be a finished product in order to post.  On the contrary, it's interesting seeing a "work in progress" and voicing our doubts, questions and fears (!).

[pianowolfi]

m1469 I like your coda snippet!!

@Birba: I likeylike!

[m1469]

OK, here I go posting this ...  :-

I explain what it is, it's measure 158-168, where HT have 16th notes, but I'm doing LH alone.

[ajspiano]

What's important to remember is that it doesn't have to be a finished product in order to post.  On the contrary, it's interesting seeing a "work in progress" and voicing our doubts, questions and fears (!).

Yes, work in progress posts are far more useful to the "project" idea than a performance that you are satisfied with. Everyone in here knows regular people don't master a whole sonata in a day, and we are here to gain further insight in how to improve. If the observers wanted a complete performance they'd just go to youtube.

Birba, I think it would be somewhat helpful for people if you could post what exact bar numbers each of your sections covers if at all possible.

Starstruck, I'll still be around - piano is more important (don't tell my fiance )

[m1469]

Yes, work in progress posts are far more useful to the "project" idea than a performance that you are satisfied with. Everyone in here knows regular people don't master a whole sonata in a day, and we are here to gain further insight in how to improve. If the observers wanted a complete performance they'd just go to youtube.

Except, of course, those individuals who would like people to believe that you accomplish something like the Appassionata in a week or so   .  Anyway, with these project idea, I have to say that I don't agree with the idea that this would be a good thing for people who are not seeking advices in person from a knowledgeable teacher, too.  Not that there is not knowledge here, but any person who wishes is supposed to be able to pick up the Appassionata, go here to this thread, and learn how to play it ... or just get a few pointers?  hmmm ... It is an interesting exchange of ideas, anyway, from a generic practice standpoint, and applies in this case to the Appassionata, I guess.

[ajspiano]

Anyway, with these project idea, I have to say that I don't agree with the idea that this would be a good thing for people who are not seeking advices in person from a knowledgeable teacher, too.

I think its more motivating for the participants than it is 'teaching' - you just get little hints and ideas, not an overall instruction set - in order to learn the appassionata as a result of reading this thread without a teacher you would absolutely need a certain level of knowledge already..  but in that case it wouldnt have been because of the thread, the thread just helps in some ways.

[m1469]

I think its more motivating for the participants than it is 'teaching' - you just get little hints and ideas, not an overall instruction set - in order to learn the appassionata as a result of reading this thread without a teacher you would absolutely need a certain level of knowledge already..  but in that case it wouldnt have been because of the thread, the thread just helps in some ways.

Yes.  My experience is that, even though in the section I'm working on, I've been asked by my teachers to work in certain ways and I've convinced myself on some level that I have (or that I can barely think about it  ), my tricky practice devil tries to take over, instead.  And, even though this thread is not a teaching thread, per se, I do find that to think through what I'm working on -especially, especially tricky parts- as though I have to articulate ideas to people who could understand the ideas, forces me to think of it in a different way and wards off the practice devil from tricking me into thinking I have a section when I don't (or that I can't think through it when in fact I can!).

[m1469]

OK, here is the beginning chordal section of the coda, mm. 310-314 (I can't remember if I said measure numbers on the recording).  I'm working to also voice the top notes in the RH (and forgot to mention that, even though that's probably a given, but I needed more work).

[pianowolfi]

I'm doing Pathétique. But I guess what will be following me in my dreams tonight might be the Appassionata. As soon as I hear two measures of it the whole work begins to play in my head and I can't stop it 

[costicina]

What's important to remember is that it doesn't have to be a finished product in order to post.  On the contrary, it's interesting seeing a "work in progress" and voicing our doubts, questions and fears (!).

Wait for me, guys!!
I’m working an in ordinate amount of hours to finish the book I’m working at ,  but then…. back to the piano, and to my  “Suggestion diabolique project”!!!! (probably next week).

IMO Birba is perfectly right: Audition room is the proper place for finished pieces. Here we’re supposed to show the process of learning, the strategies we enact to resolve the technical and/or musical challenges of troublesome passages/sections, our doubts, temptative solutions, experiments etc….
And solutions can be interchangeable, any piece can help the others. For instance, Birba’s ideas for the Appassionata Coda gave me useful suggestions for Prokofiev’s fast repeated chords.

Oh, I whish I could start right now!!!

[m1469]

m1469 I like your coda snippet!!

Thanks, Wolfi

I'm doing Pathétique. But I guess what will be following me in my dreams tonight might be the Appassionata. As soon as I hear two measures of it the whole work begins to play in my head and I can't stop it 

I guess it's a bit suggestive.

[m1469]

haha ... Birba, did I do exactly what you showed for the coda?  I took it in when I watched your video, but then I went deeply into my own land  .  Now it's all blending together.  I'll have to watch your video again.

[birba]

m1469's posts are exactly the thing I'm looking for.  It was interesting to hear you talk about the image of loops in your practising.  And I can see that.  I have no picture of you playing but you look like you have a fluid finger dexterity in those 16th notes.  I, personally, think you should use more of those fingers in the chordal section of the coda.  It's going to help you go faster.  JUst an idea.

[birba]

Sorry, we must have crossed lines while I was posting.  That's exactly what I was talking about.  To me the chords aren't clear enough and I think it's because you aren't using a finger articulation along with it. 

[m1469]

I'm slightly addicted now to this thing  :-.  I have to get even more focused and so I am really challenging myself to get these spots in order.  Today I would like to make the goal of posting the entire coda, and I will record my practicing to getting to that point.  For now, I am thinking of it in three sections (308-324) (325-341) (342-end) and each section will have up to a 15 minute session, and then I'd like to try to get all three sections together so as to have the coda blocked out.  People talk about putting actual practice stuff here, and that's exactly what this would be; me building the coda to "performance" ready - that is going to be a challenge for me, but I guess the challenge feels invigorating (not that it's not challenging by itself, but this is ... even more  :-).  I don't know that anybody would "want" to hear that, but ... it seems helpful for me and I want to use that as an opportunity to get better.  By stating my goal beforehand, I hope to have it keep me in check while I am practicing!

*back to piano*

[birba]

 I don't know that anybody would "want" to hear that, but ... it seems helpful for me and I want to use that as an opportunity to get better.  By stating my goal beforehand, I hope to have it keep me in check while I am practicing.
*back to piano*

Exactly my sentiments.  At this point, I don't care if anyone wants to listen to me.  I'm doing this for myself.  I find I'm more concentrated and focused when involved in this "project".

[starstruck5]

I agree wholheartedly with m1469 -as soon as my arm muscles stop hurting -I will get back to some serious study -I have learned that my methods for learning a piece are not developed enough -so already some benefits!

[m1469]

OK, well, this was an *extremely* frustrating and humble-izing attempt at this chordal section today.  It took over an hour to whittle everything that I was thinking and feeling (which was and is still a gigantic amount (and which I'm just going to have to count as having nothing to do with my actual practicing today)), and all goals that needed to be thrown out the window, to finally arrive at what I am posting.  Very, very basic accomplishment today with this section, and while I've got loads to contend with mentally about it, I'm trying to just throw that by the wayside and focus on what I did accomplish and then what I will need to accomplish tomorrow and the next day, in order to achieve my performance goal.  So, NOT performance today, with this section.  But, here is 310-324 in the only form I could actually successfully accomplish *anything* with this today.  (meh <---- but pretend I didn't say that even though it's a big, giant MEH ).

[zheer]

Ok,that was good sound you got out of the piano m1469.
When reading music, I found today after some research, that we should treat music notation as a SCRIPT, not a TEXT. Therefore seeking to understand performance in relation to other performances and in relation to 'performance', basically TEXT being only one aspect of the broader sense of the music, a text approach being from page to stage, where-as a SCRIPT approach requiring us to imaginatively re-create the music with-in context of current social understanding, so not to attempt to bridge the gap between past and present. Basically musical Originality being more important than the attempt to re-creat the past reality, but rather to creat new reality.Therefore not turning a concert performance into a class-room, merely informing the listener, re-producing the music without much personal imaginative in-put.

[birba]

I like that idea of  moving 4 objects from one side of the piano to the other.  Four in a row.  I think I'm going to start doing that.  I think it was Argerich who said the first time she played in public, about 7 years old, she said to herself  "If I make a mistake, may god strike me dead."
I think you should lighten up after the first two chords - think mf at the most, it'll come out loud anyway - and think of the loops you were talking about in the other session:  Accents every two measures.

[birba]

And here's my feeble attempt today.  It sounds worse then I though it would.  But I don't care.  I'm marching on.  Tomorrow I'm trying the whole thing on a real piano.  Then I'm starting the first movement.

[candlelightpiano]

That was hardly a feeble attempt, Birba. It was a heroic attempt, considering you were playing with a couple of sprained fingers.  Perhaps you might want to consider icing and resting them in preparation for tomorrow.  You've made astonishing progress but that doesn't surprise me. It sounded great, actually. I enjoyed watching you play it from memory and trying to get that section correct again and again. You've inspired and motivated me more than you'll ever know. Thank you!

[m1469]

I had to split this session, 325-341 into two different clips - it's a little over 20 minutes total (I'll load the first and then see if I can load the second in the same post, later).  I'm taking this thread in, but I'm officially in complete whirlwind mode for the next 48+ hours, trying to deal with all things , and still get the most out of the practice time that I have.  

[birba]

m1469, I don't want to change anything you've been doing, because it's very good, I think.  I, myself, would never be able to do it with that fingering.  Have you tried 2-1-2-4  3-4-3-2  1-4-3-2   1-2-3-1  then the a-flat of the next group 4 and the rest the same.   Then when it goes to the g-flat group 2-1-2-4  2-3-2-1  2-4-3-2  1-3-2-1  and whatever.  That 4-5-4  of the second group would slow me down.  Lots.  At first sight, the jumping over of the third finger (second finger in the g-flat group) seems strange, but it also gives you the accent you said you were looking for.  And you can really go fast with it.

[goldentone]

I'm enjoying your snippets, Miss m1469.  And yours too, Birba.  I feel like joining in!  
Maybe I will.

[m1469]

Ok, here's the last bit of coda for the day.  I didn't accomplish my ideal for the day, but despite my growing annoyance with myself throughout the process today, I feel I was quite honest with myself and hopefully that will pay off tomorrow in a way I can build upon.  

I will have a little break in a bit during which I can better digest your last post, Birba.

[m1469]

.

[m1469]

And here's my feeble attempt today.  It sounds worse then I though it would.  But I don't care.  I'm marching on.  Tomorrow I'm trying the whole thing on a real piano.  Then I'm starting the first movement.

I just finished watching/listening.  I use the same sliding of the thumb, but I actually do hold on to the top Bb, which is a challenge spot for me because of it's funny fingering and needed tempo (trying to reach the A-natural below it with 4 and then doing a shape in the other right hand (my second one) that isn't exactly intuitive for me.  I didn't get to it today (meh).  I will be interested to follow your progress .  I need to "put everything back together again" tomorrow ... which means it needs to be super slow, and then there will be some spots that are ok, some spots that are maybe pretty good, and then some spots that are severely not that great.  Oh, I just felt the welling frustration about that, but I'm going to "ignore" that welling and bring it, instead.  Gots. to. get'er done.

[m1469]

Ok,that was good sound you got out of the piano m1469.
When reading music, I found today after some research, that we should treat music notation as a SCRIPT, not a TEXT. Therefore seeking to understand performance in relation to other performances and in relation to 'performance', basically TEXT being only one aspect of the broader sense of the music, a text approach being from page to stage, where-as a SCRIPT approach requiring us to imaginatively re-create the music with-in context of current social understanding, so not to attempt to bridge the gap between past and present. Basically musical Originality being more important than the attempt to re-creat the past reality, but rather to creat new reality.Therefore not turning a concert performance into a class-room, merely informing the listener, re-producing the music without much personal imaginative in-put.

Hi Zheer,  Thank you for your comments and thoughts.  I've thought about this a bit throughout the day, and of course, being a singer, that is very helpful to relate what you are talking about to what I am already doing in my singing, but it also helps me to improve in my thoughts on singing!

[zheer]

You're welcome m1469,

I just listened to you play the counter point section, I like it that way,
it might be too soon, but I think you have a Bach like clarity. it will be interesting to listen to the the piece from start to end. Some pianist play it like as though it's Liszt, or worse like it's Chopin, I've done that and it just doesn't work.

Musical Artistry is very important, more important than fast fingers that gets really boring.

[birba]

Good going, m1469!  I liked the way you talked about the skeleton of the melodic line, getting the fugato feeling.  And the result was wonderful.

[birba]

[birba]