The Appassionata Project

[starstruck5]

Well done to both Birba and m1469 -you are both progressing fine.  It was interesting hearing you practise Birba on a real good quality piano.  (My digital does have settings which are from light to Heavy+ -I use Heavy -because I find it affects the dynamic range -the lighter you go the less range there is -) 

I also have an acoustic upright -but the action is very light -much lighter than the heavy setting on the digital in fact!

Sorry that my contribution at the moment is just prattling -but I'm world class at that.

[zheer]

A KAWAI piano, they are really good. Yes definitely counting is very important and so is clarity. With Beethoven a scale really is not a run, they are not decoration, they can be with Liszt, Maya has the right approach with those scale parts. The right touch is very important, also with tempo, the speed which you are comfortable with is the speed you should be playing at, it's tempting to imitate the great grand virtiusos of the piano.
Good work though, slow it down a little because I think  you'd play it a lot better that way. You know how there are people who love to drive fast (especially when young), well I think pianists do the same thing, often to show off, LOL.

[birba]

Thanks for the feedback.  Yes, I think I'm pushing it a bit.  More then my capabilities.  I've decided to just practise it slow-moderate for the moment.  Until my hand gets back to normal.

[zheer]

You're welcome Birba,

Don't get me wrong, the tempo you've chosen is probably spot-on,
playing slow doesn't mean maturity, but choose a comfortable pace.
The hand issue, well I confess I don't have that problem, but if I get too ambitious, like wanting to learn fast quickly, then I notice that my hand doesn't feel well. Here is what I do, I first enter a relaxed mental state, then I think about freeing my arm, my wrist during performance, and recently freeing the hand and lengthen-ing the fingers from the knockle joints, palm close to the keys, more action from the tips. That way I can play for 12 hours and not have any issue. You know creating a good sound is part physiological and part imagination.
I hope that helps a little.

[zheer]

This Adagio is Beethoven at his best, don't worry about technique, technique is seriously boring, the more I listen and play music the less interested I get about technique, perfection, speed bla bla bla.
Just think music and we are all ears.
Actually you will find with most pianists, including I, that music brought us the piano not super human technique like Hamiline or Lang
Lang, you just start to lose interest

[goldentone]

I really like how you emphasize the LH descending at 8:05 in your first of your newest videos, Birba.

[m1469]

Whole mov. III, slowly, by heart.  Here is A practice strategy, and it's something like taking a photograph of the piece and where I'm "at" with it.  To play at this speed just involves a different depth of perception, and pedagogical thoughts on "good practice habits" aside, I feel that a kind of slow, connected and focused ability to expressively play a piece (ideally it would be perfect  ) is what I want as the fundamental foundation to a performance for me.  It's like looking at it very closely (as one of my teachers might say) and then, to be able to play quickly would be like stepping back a bit - but there's still that foundation.  So, this is in fact quite slow, and the reality is that it's the first time I've played some of the sections in a while (too long).  I feel that if I were able to play/practice at this speed through the whole movement (and piece) with utmost connection, focus, concentration, crystal clear concept of the piece (and accurate demonstration of it) and were able to give a somehow convincing performance (in a land without preconceived expectations), I would feel I were on my way to being capable of playing this piece at performance tempo.  As can be heard, it still needs work (which is why it's here).  Anyway, one kind of practicing.

Birba, I will look at the second movement now!

[zheer]

That's a good start m1469, at a basic level that's what we need as pianist, the ability to learn the music using our ear, sight and touch so that all three in-put and out-put chanels are alligned.

[pianowolfi]

What a busy practice atmosphere in here
I admire everybody who tackles this sonata! I started it ten years ago or so and gave up because it felt like my hand was just not made for it. Now I'm working on Moonlight and Pathétique, I hope I can soon post some recordings.
m1469, I am doing such slow run throughs as well, they are something very useful. Unfortunately I often haven't got enough patience to do more than two in a row . I found it especially helpful for reducing the amount of mistakes in the final performance.
I found that my practicing sections must be not too short, for instance I do 10 slow repeats of each of the couplets in Pathétique 3 per day. I break it down into shorter sections if there's an unsolved technical problem, but I have found that I just have difficulties to handle mini-sections. Also I vary the tempo very often.
I think more and more that I need the feeling of "making music" also when practicing. If I am not in the musical flow from the very start I feel easily frustrated.

[birba]

[zheer]

Bravo birba, very impressive.

In my opinion, the tempo is spot-on, most people would say faster, but if you add all the fine details (which you did) then it's Allegro Ma non troppo.
This piece is like a demanding Piano Concerto, you played it with ease.
You know on a grand piano you can use the musical equivalent of female Make-Up, a Make-Up can make an un-attractive women look attractive, but Make-Up on a attractive women can make them even more attractive . No too much make-up though.
We look forward to hearing it performed on a KAWAI. Ciao.

[costicina]

Ho ascoltato a bocca aperta

Intimidating.....

[birba]

[candlelightpiano]

Absolutely Awesome, Maestro!!!!  You take my breath away!  You memorized the whole third movement of this incredibly difficult piece in a week!  I thought I'd ask how many hours a day you practiced to achieve this feat but it doesn't matter because I wouldn't be able to do it if practiced 24/7 365 days a year for the next ten years!! 

[birba]

But you see, this sonata has been in my head for 50 years, almost.  So I practically knew it by memory before I began studying it.  Plus, I did make 2 half-hearted attempts at the first movement in my life, so it was not completely new to me.  This is exactly why I tell all young pianists to learn as much as they can - even half learn is enough - while they're young!
I want to finish the sonata before my re-entry in italia.  I have one month to do it.
At any rate, this is just the beginning!  You wait and see!  Appassionata, here I come!!!

[costicina]

But are you going to play it in a recital? What other pieces are in your program? And above all, when and where you'll play? VOGLIO ESSERE IN PRIMA FILA AD APPLAUDIRTI!!!!!!!

[candlelightpiano]

Me, too: VOGLIO ESSERE IN PRIMA FILA AD APPLAUDIRTI!!!!!  When and where will you perform?
I'm your fan!

[CC]

I have several pointers on how to practice/interpret the appassionata in my book (see below), but it is scattered over several places; go to the index and look under Beethoven, Appassionata.

[starstruck5]

I have several pointers on how to practice/interpret the appassionata in my book (see below), but it is scattered over several places; go to the index and look under Beethoven, Appassionata.

Thanks a lot for  your kindness in posting this link -

Any chance of you making a video though? 

[starstruck5]

      

I have just finished a session, practising the last movement. My left arm bicep muscle is hurting badly -I think it might have something to do with the bit where the arms cross -I may be tensing up too much -my right arm and hand is ok.  This is very depressing. When I played this when I was much younger, I had no pain at all -then I didn't have the technique -now I have the technique in some respects -I don't have the relaxation -I don't know.

I feel right now, like giving up playing altogether. I guess I won't though -I will learn some easier pieces.

[costicina]

No, oh no, please!!!!
I know too well this moments of frustration and discomfort, but keep strong, don't give up, not yet!!!! I'm struggling with your same problems, you are not alone 

[ajspiano]

I have several pointers on how to practice/interpret the appassionata in my book (see below), but it is scattered over several places; go to the index and look under Beethoven, Appassionata.

The forum must be doing a bit better - Awesome that you've shown up after a 2 year hiatus - and I would like to give my most sincere thankyou for the work you put into your book, and for the fact that you make it freely available. You are one of the most amazing assets to any dedicated (or especially the less dedicated ) pianist.

[starstruck5]

Thanks for your kind words of encouragement Marge -they are much needed -but I don't want to cripple myself!  

I spend nearly all my time these days, either doing chores or shopping -the life of a carer is not an easy one -the Appassionata is my life right now -maybe that's why I need to play it so much -I have much in common with Beethoven -the ugliness and social difficulties definitely -not the deafness thankfully -

 I do love Scarlatti and Haydn -Perhaps I need to let in more light?  

[birba]

You're stranding me!  Only kidding!  You have to be careful when you start to feel a muscular pain anywhere in your playing apparatus.  It might have nothing to do with your playing.  But I think you would know more than anyone if it does.  I have, for example, a pain in my right hand every once in a while from exerting chords and octaves.  When this happens, I have to let up.  I never used to have this problem.  I think it has a lot to do with the work in the opera I did.  But, I just sort of loosen up and tiddly around with my right hand until it passes.
I've started the first movement and I'll post something today.  Lots of problems...

[pianowolfi]

     

I have just finished a session, practising the last movement. My left arm bicep muscle is hurting badly -I think it might have something to do with the bit where the arms cross -I may be tensing up too much -my right arm and hand is ok.  This is very depressing. When I played this when I was much younger, I had no pain at all -then I didn't have the technique -now I have the technique in some respects -I don't have the relaxation -I don't know.

I feel right now, like giving up playing altogether. I guess I won't though -I will learn some easier pieces.

That's a very common effect of practicing hard pieces from naught to sixty. An athlete can't run a marathon without first working up to that level. I recommend to practice much shorter amounts of time, preferably practice slowly and relaxed until your playing apparatus has got more adapted to the specific movements of that particular piece.   

[starstruck5]

That's a very common effect of practicing hard pieces from naught to sixty. An athlete can't run a marathon without first working up to that level. I recommend to practice much shorter amounts of time, preferably practice slowly and relaxed until your playing apparatus has got more adapted to the specific movements of that particular piece.  

Thanks Wolfi -I do tend to be a bit bullish sometimes -I was last night -lol I need a teacher -but there is no one local I don't think -the one which is most promising is out of my price range.

Birba, I look forward to your next installment -it is a fascinating series of videos!  Look forward to seeing how you play the trills -I saw a teaching video, where the guy suggested you play trills with very low wrists -doesn't work for me that .

m1469 is also an inspiration in this thread!

[lotal]

     

I have just finished a session, practising the last movement. My left arm bicep muscle is hurting badly -I think it might have something to do with the bit where the arms cross -I may be tensing up too much -my right arm and hand is ok.  This is very depressing. When I played this when I was much younger, I had no pain at all -then I didn't have the technique -now I have the technique in some respects -I don't have the relaxation -I don't know.

I feel right now, like giving up playing altogether. I guess I won't though -I will learn some easier pieces.

Starstuck5, it’s interesting issue: whether continue learning a difficult piece, which is not to one’s apparatus yet, or give it up. I afraid that the reasonable answer is to give it up, at least that is how they advise in the diligent theory books. I never followed that advice myself, though. On the contrary, once I went even against the advice from a friend, professional musician, who had listen to my early efforts in learning an Oscar Peterson solo and said that I just should not learn the piece. That only ignited me on. That very time I just returned to learning piano, bought a DP, and never had a piece memorized through all my life. (The result after three years of gnawing and pausing with it is here:

. Not a big deal for a pro, but at least it is an achievement for myself.) I have been taking chances, but at the same time try to be fully aware of the bad consequences and be ready to pay for my chosen way (not with money but with my time and effort). Odds as a rule are against you, too many obstacles. But if you are not in a hurry and make step at a time there is no reason why you may not achieve the goal some distant day. Of course, there should be easier pieces to learn in your repertoire to keep a reasonable balance. A very difficult piece is an extreme after all in the learning routine. Much depends on your point of view on the learning and your attitude. I look at the Appassionata not only as a prize to reach at the end, but also as a way and means to learn piano playing. I find it more interesting to develop my apparatus on real music obstacles rather than scales and technical exercises, the very thought was mentioned in the CC’s book. Therefore I for one did not placed any time limits on learning the Appasionata, learn it for two years by now without excessive pressure on me and with relevant time share, and it does shift on after all little by little. No annoyance, but patient waiting, if you may keep that way.
Someway that resembles the question asked by a stranger if he/she should start learning piano. Basing on the odds, one should not even try  . The same as it is not worth to climb a steep mountain. It is even dangerous for life/career, isn't it? Most people will give it up too soon. But still we keep trying… Just be aware of the truth and handle it with care.

[costicina]

Lotal, your reply heartened me, as I hope it will do to Starstruck for which was meant. I'm in a similar situation, and like him,  I often feel  deeply discomforted. But I think exactly like you...
Thank you
Marg

[birba]

I wasn't really ready to post anything (in fact, this is almost a practise session) but I don't want this thread to die out!
Starstruck;  why don't you start the second movement? 
And m1469?  Where are you?
And Jp?

[ajspiano]

Much depends on your point of view on the learning and your attitude. I look at the Appassionata not only as a prize to reach at the end, but also as a way and means to learn piano playing.

This should go in that piano wisdom thread - too often people focus so much on the success or failure in learning a particular piece to an acceptable standard - meanwhile completely oblivious to the fact that at the mentally straining "I can/I can't/will I ever?" halfway point of learning a piece that is well beyond you, your playing has already improved tenfold.

[costicina]

Yessssss!!!!! I'm learning --and have learned -- so much from  pieces too  challenging for me (of course, it's not the case of Birba; he can play whatever he wants). I think I'll never be able to perform PRokofiev Suggestion diabolique, but at the end, I will have acquired a clearer vision on many fundamental techincal and musical issues, and about myself  . It's not wasted time!!!!

I'm collecting Birba's videos. They are a great resource for every piano student.
Grazie Birba!!!!

[candlelightpiano]

Starstruck;  why don't you start the second movement?  
And m1469?  Where are you?
And Jp?

Thanks, Birba!  I enjoyed your three videos very, very much. You truly are an awesome pianist!  I could listen to you for hours.  

[starstruck5]

Hopefully the thread won't die out Birba -your videos are awesome.  I wish I could keep up with you and mirror your progress -but I am so out of my league here.  I didn't expect to suffer an injury to my arm -though it has eased today. In athletics they tell you that if you are going further and faster than you have gone before, then you can expect aches and pains. You don't give up, you just keep on going until your body adapts. With the piano, though, I am not sure. Some would say that an injury to the bicep muscle is unusual?  I don't know enough to make an informed decision.  Now I am playing with the idea that there is something wrong with my technique -and another level of stress is NOT needed -(It is like I have been punched in the arm by Claude Van Damme)! I don't know whether I should begin the second movement -it is very beautiful certainly.  I have a few other pieces needing some practise and TLC-

I posted an mp3 of the Consolation in the project thread and was fairly happy with it -but I have been asked to make a video as well -so I plan to have a go at that this weekend -despite bicep strain -

Hopefully m1469 will contribute to this thread soon! 

[zheer]

I found this clip on Youtube by chance, it has to be one of the best interpretation of Beethoven Op57.

[m1469]

Not a lot to contribute at the time, as I think I have different aims than the reality of the thread-content.  Kudos to honest effort and accomplishments!

[m1469]

Just when I think I won't post, I decide I will  .  Here's mm 212-(I forget, but I say on the recording).  I just listened and it's not quite what I want, but this is a step for me in the right direction. 

[m1469]

mm 242 to the first chord of the coda/presto (16th notes on staccato).

[starstruck5]

I've resisted the temptaion to comment up to now, because I was hoping Birba would respond first -but anyway -I think you doing great.

The staccato exercise was without any note errors, which is brilliant -in bar 275 you could practise a more gradual diminuendo -each note must be softer than the one before -not easy -

I am not sure though, that in bars 278 a more even dynamic is expected, until the crescendo again at the end of bar 282- Anyway this rising and falling is a feature of the whole movement -so it is worth thinking a lot about it -

I am no expert unlike Birba -I know he always says we should practise these dynamic changes in an exaggerated way -so that is ingrained.

Anyway -enough waffle from me -great work m1469!

[m1469]

Hi Starstruck ... I listened back to the staccato and observed that I had not actually communicated the dynamics very well, and I take your comments as an affirmation of that observation of mine!  Thanks for the feedback.

Here is mm. 158 again, working with some ideas that are becoming more clear to me.  I feel that working along the lines of how I explain in here, is achieving a type of sound and a platform of control that I would like to have throughout the entire piece, so that is the direction in which I am heading.  I'm not sure if my ideas communicate clearly as it might be something in my head which is not be articulated in words very well, though I think that my beloved teachers have been wanting certain parts of what I'm talking about to be more clear to me for some time.  Anyhoo, with no further ado:

[starstruck5]

You have a lovely speaking voice -coming on well I think.

I will download this clip and try to absorb a little more of its meaning -Have you noticed in the third movement that Beethoven is playing with the idea of short musical ideas and longer ones -I suppose this idea crops up in a lot of his sonatas -and I don't know how important this realisation is in interpreting this movement more artistically and convincingly -

The syncopated exercises seemed to be quite Schumannesque in places- I discovered the other day that if you play the main 16ths theme in F major instead of F minor -the piece becomes quite Mahler-esque and pastoral -just a quaint observation -IU got a bit carried away with improvising the sonata in a Mahlerian way -strange but beautiful .

[birba]

OMG, you're right!  It sounds very pastorale in F major!!!!
Today, I played through the whole sonata twice.  The memory is pretty good.  The second movement isn't easy.  I found myself slowing down at the beginning and speeding up in the middle.  I've been working with a metronome to find the tempo that suits all.  Andante con moto.  The whole musical intention of the theme changes at a faster pace.

[starstruck5]

I started the second movement as you suggested -and it is far from easy -

QUESTION!

Do you think it would be easier if I thought of the movement as 8/16 -and so counted in 8's -at least when I am learning it -I just can't make the transition to the 32nds counting in twos. Not even fours -I hate playing to the metronome, so it's going to be even more difficult for me. I also have read through the first movement again -my trills need work!

Hopefully I can post a new video soon -

Good to hear, Birba, that you have now memorised the whole Sonata -that is outstanding! By the time I do that, you will long have lost interest in this thread!

[birba]

[birba]

I found this clip on Youtube by chance, it has to be one of the best interpretation of Beethoven Op57.

I liked that very much.  I've always been a great admirer of Ciccolini.   (wasn't ready for that ear-ring, though!)  A very down-to-earth interpretation.  Maybe a bit too romantic in the second movement for my tastes.  But very convincing.

[starstruck5]

I loved the Ciccolini interpretation of the Appassionata -he plays it like I would ideally like to play it!

Look forward Birba to you playing the op57 on a real piano!  I tried counting as you did in the video -complete disaster -the metronome won every time!

[zheer]

The 2nd MVT is like the third MVT it takes a lot of work and time. The tempo in my opinion should be free and flowing. I'll be researching on Tempo soon, I've already found some interesting things on the topic, something to do with structure. Anyway I'll post the subject when done researching.

[zheer]

I loved the Ciccolini interpretation of the Appassionata -he plays it like I would ideally like to play it!

Glad to hear it, Ciccolini isn't listening to piano music the way we do I don't think, he obviously gets really inside the music/sound when he practices, NO DISTRACTION, zip.

[m1469]

Ok, I'm not quite ready to make the link public yet (it's a private link), still ironing out wrinkles, but I think it's getting there.  I hope to have a liberated performance recording up in the audition room in about month or so.  I've been video recording throughout this week and have learned quite a bit in the process and feel it's been a growing experience, so I'm going to make a point of doing some performance recordings as live performance preparations.  

Here's where it's at, as of today .  Cheers!  Thanks for the push in this thread  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrMG3YyFnMo

[candlelightpiano]

m1469, that was absolutely awesome!!  You've made huge progress in this piece.  I especially loved that powerful, dramatic ending.  Wonderful to be able to see you perform, too.  Thanks.

[m1469]

Thank you very much, Choo, I'm happy you like it .