The Appassionata Project

[starstruck5]

Sounds like a good idea, Starstruck!  However, the number of bars in each section sound like quite a big chunk for someone beginning.  A1 at 49 bars is a lot!!  How did you choose those numbers?

Well m1469 posted 1-16 -but I did 1-54 -it seemed a shame then to not to make the opening gambit a more ambitious one!

But it seems no one is interested in this sectional posting idea -so I may fly with it myself -

[m1469]

I am of course interested in sectioning it out ...    But I have sectioned mine differently.  I enjoy being part of a thread where other people are learning this sonata, but it's not just a random project for me as I am aiming to actually program this within the next few months and beyond, and I of course have to get it to a performable standard in the ways that work best for me.  That's my focus.

[starstruck5]

I am of course interested in sectioning it out ...    But I have sectioned mine differently.  I enjoy being part of a thread where other people are learning this sonata, but it's not just a random project for me as I am aiming to actually program this within the next few months and beyond, and I of course have to get it to a performable standard in the ways that work best for me.  That's my focus.

What are your sections then? I am happy to go along with yours.  I'll post 1-16 even!  I don't think I can quite match you technically at the moment -but I love the challenge of trying!  I may never perform tis in public -but I would like to post the whole sonata in the Audition Room on here eventually -that is my goal.

[m1469]

What are your sections then? I am happy to go along with yours.  I'll post 1-16 even!  I don't think I can quite match you technically at the moment -but I love the challenge of trying!

You probably can match me technically if you slow yourself down and concentrate on learning well smaller sections.  For example, in 1-16, please clean up your trills and give them the full length they need.  Also, your descending passage can use some work in order to for each note to really speak.  Overall, in that section, you can use a more steady pulse, more precise rests and note-lengths, and a crisper attention to tone in relationship to that pulse.  Any rit. going into the descending passage should be metered, not whimsical.  Just my opinions of course.  But don't let "I can't" keep you from thinking in detail and going after it.  I am just remembering my impression from what I heard you post (a few days ago?).

Hopefully I'll post another (bigger) section today and, for now, I don't think I'm going to take the time to write out what those are ... maybe tonight (but composition is tonight).  

[m1469]

Here is 1-50 in mov. I, which is a larger section for me with subsections within it.  I wasn't giving myself permission to have multiple takes, and only gave myself permission for this one as though it's a performance ... "if had to perform this today, this is what it would sound like"

subsections:  1-16 (db)
                   16-35 (db)
                   35-51 (db)

There are smaller ones within each subsection, which I used for the sake of practice but haven't written here.  Still working out details.

[m1469]

Okay, here's mov. II 1-48 with repeats.  I'm working in two basic ways right now, the first is the larger picture and working to get huge sections back into memory, as accurately as possible.  The second is detailed work, which is psychologically more difficult for me sometimes ... well, that's not entirely true.  Sometimes I obsess over that part of it.  Probably the most difficult thing is to really be honest with myself according to which kind of work is the *most* important at that time.  The section I am posting needed the larger stuff most, and the section following (not posted) needs spot work most.

[m1469]

Here is 1-50 in mov. I, which is a larger section for me with subsections within it.  I wasn't giving myself permission to have multiple takes, and only gave myself permission for this one as though it's a performance ... "if had to perform this today, this is what it would sound like"

subsections:  1-16 (db)
                   16-35 (db)
                   35-51 (db)

There are smaller ones within each subsection, which I used for the sake of practice but haven't written here.  Still working out details.

As you continue to work out those details, let me tell you what I think.  First off, even though I realize this was a "performance" situation for you, I think you needed some form of an objective viewpoint other than sitting alone in your house, doing the same things you usually do ... and the idea of performing and posting helped you achieve that.  But, very first notes, not the right balance between voices, not the right musical character, either.  I can hear that you think there needs to be motion in the ascending theme, but careful not to give it a "triumphant" sound just yet; if that comes at all, it is not until later.  I think here we are in question more than anything else, and in a form of darkness.  In fact, I think you know exactly this state, so don't be afraid to communicate it and please treat specifically your sound-desires as "one" with your communication desires.  

Your descending passage was still not completely satisfactory in terms of every note securely speaking, and even sometimes certain notes were slightly longer (and I think "sticky") than other when you were not intending it that way.  You obviously need to be more honest with yourself and put in the work to clean that up and get it exactly as you want it.  

Musical organization:  So you have an idea on this, but you are not actually putting it fully to use yet, and the same is true for what you posted of the second movement, but I will talk more about that in a minute.  Here, in the first movement, you even have a pretty clear idea buried within you about what that phrasing and organization needs to be, and that is of course connected with sound, but right now you are hoping it's going to just find its own way to the surface without you really needing to dig for it.  Fine, you feel like you've already got a lot on your plate and you wish it WOULD just happen that way ... well, sure, some things do just that, but you know you need to dig deeper and get it out for this to really be what you need it to be.  Do that, please.

Overall, your pulse is not sharp enough, STILL, and you know how to work that out, too.  

mm. 35-40 ... are you sure you're achieving what you need/want to be?  mm 41-50 ... what do these measures musically achieve in the piece?  What is the purpose here?  You have an idea, but please organize your thoughts more clearly here.  Your trills are still not exact, sometimes you even miss a note and I can hear there is physical tension which develops when you don't want that.  Do what you need to do to get rid of that and clean this up.  

mm. 47-50 ... are you sure you've still got the pulse?

 

[m1469]

Okay, here's mov. II 1-48 with repeats.  I'm working in two basic ways right now, the first is the larger picture and working to get huge sections back into memory, as accurately as possible.  The second is detailed work, which is psychologically more difficult for me sometimes ... well, that's not entirely true.  Sometimes I obsess over that part of it.  Probably the most difficult thing is to really be honest with myself according to which kind of work is the *most* important at that time.  The section I am posting needed the larger stuff most, and the section following (not posted) needs spot work most.

Basically, in a word, No.  Not good.  You're better than this.  Too slow.  Too notey.  What is your organization?  What notes matter the most?  Voicing ... hello??  Phrasing ... pulse ... direction?  Crap.  Pure crap.  Do it again.  Start from scratch in your mind and look at this anew.  You are a different person than when you started this piece, you are a different musician, a different pianist.  Act like it.

[starstruck5]

Both posts were pretty good I thought.  I always believe that when you play a piece of music it is yours -you can re-compose it to a point. People will often hate you for it, but I hate myself more if I don't play something the way I feel it -to hell with mathematics and printed pages -composers themeselves had to commit to a final score- but that is not necessarily where the music really is -the idea is to move your audience -if you over analyse you can end up killing the spirit of the music.  Also ideas about how you play a piece should be fluid -why commit to one?  There should and could be more than one possibility depending on your mood -

I remember watching a Barenboim masterclass where a young pianist played the 16th Sonata of Beethoven -he played with a freedom and joy which was breathtaking -afterwards Barenboim talked about proper pulse and he talked about note values -but he missed the whole point -the performance that young man gave transcended all that by a factor to infinity.  Music isn't Calculus.

[m1469]

-afterwards Barenboim talked about proper pulse and he talked about note values -but he missed the whole point -the performance that young man gave transcended all that by a factor to infinity.  Music isn't Calculus.

Somehow I don't think it was Barenboim who missed the point ... haha.  I guess it depends on who is your "ultimate" audience, as different people find different performers satisfying for different reasons (sometimes that different reason is even ignorance  ).  For example, I find this post in the "good techniques" thread to be a class of its own: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=45624.msg499273#msg499273  Even though surrounded by others.

Studying a piece more and more should not decrease freedom while performing and interpreting, but rather the opposite.  If it does decrease freedom than you are doing something wrong.  To me, it's like studying a role/character for Opera and trying to get behind the character ... at some point, you become one with it, and that's what I want out of my piano studies and piano performances.  But what does a piano forum know about that?  

[m1469]

Both posts were pretty good I thought.

In fact, I would have thought your character found them to be nearly perfect in every way .  

[candlelightpiano]

Well, m1469 and Starstruck, both of you are doing really, really well.  I thoroughly enjoyed your performances.  They were powerful and you're really getting seriously good at it.  I know you'd both prefer reviews from the experts but I'm all you've got for now.  

Both of you please keep it up!  And maybe don't sweat the small stuff.  Can't you both just play and enjoy it? Isn't that the whole reason we're all here?  

I just wish Birba would come back!!  Missing him ....

[m1469]

Missing him ....

Miss him all you want, but just to be clear, "Birba" is not my Maestro.  Doesn't mean I don't enjoy him in the thread!  No offense, Birbi  

[m1469]

OK, I just have *SO* many thoughts/feelings about this music ...   ... it's really, really difficult to make myself organize them.  I think I can do it, but it's like herding a bunch of wild horses and it seems hurty!  

*must persist*

[m1469]

Attempting to make my organization really clear so I'm starting again in 1-16 with some specific ideas in mind.

[birba]

Interesting, m1469.  I do that, too.  Personally, I think it should go faster - especially when you do this skeletal work.  You get more an idea of the big phrase.

[birba]

after a month's hiatus, trying to get back into the game...

[candlelightpiano]

That was an outstanding performance and I'm so happy you're back!!  And that you also found your remote gizmo!  This thread was not the same without you.  Welcome Home, Maestro!!   

[m1469]

Welcome back, Birba.  I especially enjoyed your descending passage mm14-15, your triplet chords mm 17-22, and your dynamic/tonal contrast between those more ferocious sections to mm 35-41!

[costicina]

Wow, awesome, Maestro!!!

This hiatus has done wonders to your Appassionata, and it's not just the fact that you play on a real piano this time. Una meraviglia, da brivido, davvero...You have all the qualities of a highest rank pianist: technique, musicality, and that "something" that makes the difference.

Se ti azzardi a dire di nuovo che vuoi smettere di suonare ti uccido, giuro !!!!

[birba]

Thanks guys for the impetus!
Frankly, I think you  keep the 32nd notes more in time, m1469.  I found on re-listening, mine were a little lazy.  They have to be more dynamic. 
Tomorrow, the development, I hope.

[candlelightpiano]

I listened to it the second time now I'm at home with my BOSE headphones and it felt like a concert performance!  Such a dramatic and powerful ending!!  LOVED IT!!  Loved everything about it!  Phenomenal performance, Maestro!!!!! 

[m1469]

haha ... I'm having a tricky time getting over the bar I set  .  meh ... I feel like I can't play it at all now ... maybe if I change my outfit.

Birba, what(!) 32nd notes?

[pianowolfi]

Birba, what(!) 32nd notes?

Yeah that's what I was searching for as well, since 10 minutes...

[birba]

Sorry.  16th notes.  They're so fast they sound like 32nd notes.  I think someone said in the manuscript, they were originally 8th notes - like a triplet - but changed to 16th notes because he wanted that "nervous" andamento.  It's vital here and I don't respect it!

[birba]

[costicina]

  Thank you, maestro,
your videos are the best Easter egg one could hope for: chocolate of the finest quality, and what a superb surprise inside!!!!!

P.S. for m1469: in Italian a 'maestro' is much more than  a 'teacher': is somebody who master an art to the highest degree and has the gift to transmit his/her wisdom to others, enlightening them, so to speak. For me, Bernhard has been and still is a 'maestro'. Birba too deserves this title.
Happy Easter.

[candlelightpiano]

Thank you so much, Maestro!!  Can't even begin to tell you how much your videos mean to me as this is my favorite sonata and you've become my favorite pianist and "teacher."  I like Marg's definition of Maestro and I'm proud to say that I consider you to be my Maestro in all the ways she defined a Maestro to be.  (I hope you don't mind that)  Thanks for the privilege of watching you work this incredible piece of music!  

You were right.  We can download youtube videos and save it to our hard drive or other device and I'm now saving and treasuring all your videos.  

EDIT

A very peaceful and happy Easter to you, too, Birba and may music, fun, laughter, good health and prosperity be yours today and for always.  

[starstruck5]

I too was impressed by your videos Birba -much food for thought -

I am also learning this movement now -I really want to rebel against some of the note values Beethoven has written -I feel the pulse a whole lot slower than Allegro Assai even -yet in other passages I want it to fly like a witch in a hurricane -when I play to the metronome it reminds me that this music is not romantic -but I feel it that way -I want to rebel all the time -

 I need to make a video -it is so difficult now I have to play everything with headphones -maybe I will have to make do with audio for now -syncing video to audio is such a pain.

[m1469]

P.S. for m1469: in Italian a 'maestro' is much more than  a 'teacher': is somebody who master an art to the highest degree and has the gift to transmit his/her wisdom to others, enlightening them, so to speak. For me, Bernhard has been and still is a 'maestro'. Birba too deserves this title.
Happy Easter.

Many people are defined by such, though they don't necessarily draw everybody else in as somebody who defines them as that for them personally.  That's the way it goes.  I can comprehend where you are coming from and I am very happy for you .  But, just because you define somebody as that way for you, doesn't mean I do, and that is my very right.  Ultimately, I also believe there is a greater power which has a hand.  That doesn't mean I don't learn from the rest of the world around me.  But, no, Birba is not my Maestro (and it's not fair to Birba to make it "about" Birba).  

[m1469]

You were right.  We can download youtube videos and save it to our hard drive or other device (...)

You can do that?  I didn't think you could do that.

 

[candlelightpiano]

m1469, I didn't learn about it until Birba deleted all his videos from my FI project.     Otherwise, I would have saved them.  I download them to Real Player.  Just download Real Player.  It's free.  Then, when you're watching any youtube videos, a little white box pops up on the top RH corner of the video asking if you'd like to download.  This box only pops up once the video has begun so it takes maybe 15 seconds, depending on the size of the video or the speed it opens up.  Once you have downloaded to Real Player, you can watch videos on it, which is nice so you don't have to keep going back to youtube or to Pianostreet.  If you want to save the videos, you may do so to a USB flash drive. 

[birba]

I too was impressed by your videos Birba -much food for thought -

I am also learning this movement now -I really want to rebel against some of the note values Beethoven has written -I feel the pulse a whole lot slower than Allegro Assai even -yet in other passages I want it to fly like a witch in a hurricane -when I play to the metronome it reminds me that this music is not romantic -but I feel it that way -I want to rebel all the time -

I know what you mean.  I say go ahead and do it.  A lot of times we need to hear that result.  In the long run, the piece will maintain it's overall andamento.  For example in that huge crescendo in the development.  It's only natural, I think, to accelerate.  And then, subito dopo, a big drawback in that sinister octave passage.
In the meantime, I found I've been playing mm. 203-209 right hand, wrong.  In the edition I was using in France, the right hand was the same throughout until the last measure.  Now I find most editions change it to follow the left hand.  And the logic behind it is fullproof.  It's just that it's a b.... unlearning it!

[candlelightpiano]

Birba, sorry to hear that you have to unlearn what you learned in France.  That really sucks!

[austinarg]

after a month's hiatus, trying to get back into the game...

Great performance, but is it just me, or the keyboard is moving sideways? 

[pianowolfi]

Great performance, but is it just me, or the keyboard is moving sideways? 

That's called "una corda" 

[austinarg]

I see, so that's what the third pedal actually does! One surely must be careful while playing, or else he may hit a wrong note 

[m1469]

Well, here is mov. I, 1-151.  This is not without some fudgesicles.  I'm having a tricky time fitting an immense energy into working out details, and backing off isn't exactly helping, I don't think.  So, this is still a "performance draft" and I did record the whole thing, but this is all I'm going to post for now.  I need to move forward.

[m1469]

m1469, I didn't learn about it until Birba deleted all his videos from my FI project.    Otherwise, I would have saved them.  I download them to Real Player.  Just download Real Player.  It's free.  Then, when you're watching any youtube videos, a little white box pops up on the top RH corner of the video asking if you'd like to download.  This box only pops up once the video has begun so it takes maybe 15 seconds, depending on the size of the video or the speed it opens up.  Once you have downloaded to Real Player, you can watch videos on it, which is nice so you don't have to keep going back to youtube or to Pianostreet.  If you want to save the videos, you may do so to a USB flash drive.  

Thanks for the info, Choo .

Currently enjoying your most recent videos, Birba .

[pianowolfi]

Well, here is mov. I, 1-151.  This is not without some fudgesicles.  I'm having a tricky time fitting an immense energy into working out details, and backing off isn't exactly helping, I don't think.  So, this is still a "performance draft" and I did record the whole thing, but this is all I'm going to post for now.  I need to move forward.

If this is only a draft, your final interpretation of this sonata will be legendary!

There is only one little thing that irritates me a little bit: it's the transition from M.40 to 41. I know perfectly what you intend to do there, but to me it's too much of an "artificial cut" to the subito p. Yes it is a cresc. to subito p, and yes these are essentially important for Beethoven, but in this case it doesn't flow yet, like everything else does, perfectly.

Wow! What an energy! Among many many other details, I like very much how you are going slightly faster at M 18!

I am very much looking forward to listening to the rest of the movement!

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks for the info, Choo

You're very welcome, m1469.  

 I enjoyed your recent recording very much, too!  Tremendous energy in there.  You're on your way to a life performance of this incredible piece!  

Austin, if your piano doesn't do that when you use the una corda pedal, you must be using a digital piano? 

[birba]

Well, here is mov. I, 1-151.  This is not without some fudgesicles.  I'm having a tricky time fitting an immense energy into working out details, and backing off isn't exactly helping, I don't think.  So, this is still a "performance draft" and I did record the whole thing, but this is all I'm going to post for now.  I need to move forward.

The opening is played beautifully.  You have great trills - wish I had them.
Anyway, that rythm has to be maintained in the similar octave passages at 35, 109, and 135.  You play the 16th notes here like an 8th note triplet.
The problem with the chord passage at the beginning is that you lose the tempo here.  If you think of the the third beat in the left hand chord, and maintain a ternary feeling, they will come out clearer.  And the rh. more pronounced then the left.
I don't know why, but at m. 24 and in similar places, it sounded like you slowed down.  But you don't.  As it sounds now, it's sort of pedantic.  Maybe a little pedal and a lighter touch.  By the way, what fingering do you use?
That tremendous passage at 51 has to slow down a bit. It sounds like you're trying to play it at tempo.  But I know I can't get the necessary force in the fingers and that infernal rumbling if I don't hold back the tempo a bit.  Just slightly.
Really interesting listening to you.  thanks!

[m1469]

If this is only a draft, your final interpretation of this sonata will be legendary!

There is only one little thing that irritates me a little bit: it's the transition from M.40 to 41. I know perfectly what you intend to do there, but to me it's too much of an "artificial cut" to the subito p. Yes it is a cresc. to subito p, and yes these are essentially important for Beethoven, but in this case it doesn't flow yet, like everything else does, perfectly.

Wow! What an energy! Among many many other details, I like very much how you are going slightly faster at M 18!

I am very much looking forward to listening to the rest of the movement!

Thank you very much for listening and for your thoughts .  I am happy that you enjoy it!  

And thank you, Choo, too!

The opening is played beautifully.  You have great trills - wish I had them.
Anyway, that rythm has to be maintained in the similar octave passages at 35, 109, and 135.  You play the 16th notes here like an 8th note triplet.
The problem with the chord passage at the beginning is that you lose the tempo here.  If you think of the the third beat in the left hand chord, and maintain a ternary feeling, they will come out clearer.  And the rh. more pronounced then the left.
I don't know why, but at m. 24 and in similar places, it sounded like you slowed down.  But you don't.  As it sounds now, it's sort of pedantic.  Maybe a little pedal and a lighter touch.  By the way, what fingering do you use?
That tremendous passage at 51 has to slow down a bit. It sounds like you're trying to play it at tempo.  But I know I can't get the necessary force in the fingers and that infernal rumbling if I don't hold back the tempo a bit.  Just slightly.
Really interesting listening to you.  thanks!

Thanks for taking the time to listen and to write for me your impressions.  Your post is a very good example of somebody's response who I will consider alongside things I know I "should" be doing and take in observance of another person's impression of a performance-style recording.  I see already from your videos that you and I do think differently (not always) from one another in terms of what we aim to communicate, but there are other things that relate directly to the score which I am happy to be more clear about.  There is, of course, a food chain involved in how I process comments .

Thanks, and happy Appassionataing!  

[birba]

A very rough first "draft" of the first movement.  Complete with memory slips and everything else.

[m1469]

haha ... Birba, probably it is a good sign of being on the right track if you feel you can't help to let out a snarl after the first movement and a little bit of a swear somewhere during ... haha.  mm 227-234 is tricky business and I'm currently trying to get that truly sorted out.  I know what it's supposed to be but my hands and body have something different in mind and want to just throw the pulse out the window and go completely wild and crazy (especially with the fabulous buildup right before it) ... it's obviously a bit of a ride there anyway and it's a certain peak in the movement, but I'll like to tame it.

Perhaps I can get a whole first up today, but I think mine will be rougher than yours.  Congrats on your performance .

[candlelightpiano]

FANTASTIC, Maestro!!!!!  What a joy to watch you perform this morning!  There was so much power from your performance I could feel the room reverberate with the intensity.  I enjoyed every bit of it, when you counted and when you cursed!  Thank you for giving me the privilege of watching you put this magnificent piece together.  You were fantastic!!

[starstruck5]

I found your performance to be deeply moving Birba.  When you think that only a tiny percentage of people ever get to experience what it is to play these notes at the level and intensity you play them -it is an awesome achievement. Even the memory slip just underlines that to err is to be human -and there has never been a more deeply human sonata than OP57 -You will nail it next time anyway -but I will always love this performance.

Next time you hit a slump watch this video!

[m1469]

(...)there has never been a more deeply human sonata than OP57(...)

I think this is an interesting observation, as I have been experiencing a very strange transition with this sonata (as the captain in my studies) in the past few days.  The leading idea being that, what this sonata entails as music, I must actually find within myself and express in the process of learning.  It is as though the very process of learning brings out of me and requires the qualities that the music is "meant to express."  This of course leads me to think of my other studies, which is why I called it the captain.  

But, I do wonder ... what if people don't have to find that within them in order to play?  I don't see the whole picture yet ...  

[birba]

Thanks for the feedback.  If you only knew how I would REALLY like it to be...! 

[birba]

I think this is an interesting observation, as I have been experiencing a very strange transition with this sonata (as the captain in my studies) in the past few days.  The leading idea being that, what this sonata entails as music, I must actually find within myself and express in the process of learning.  It is as though the very process of learning brings out of me and requires the qualities that the music is "meant to express."  This of course leads me to think of my other studies, which is why I called it the captain.  

But, I do wonder ... what if people don't have to find that within them in order to play?  I don't see the whole picture yet ...  

this should be the basis for learning any new piece of music. Not just the Appassionata.  Learning the technical - finger tricks - aspect should always go hand in hand with the music.  After all, it IS the expression of the music, isn't it?  I admit, I get hung up in details without looking at the larger picture.  It's always been my weakness.  But I'm getting there!  I can feel it!