The ‘project’ model: a proposal

[costicina]

The ‘project’ model launched with a struck of genius by Candlelightpiano (thank you Choo!) for the Fantasie Impromptu and successfully continued by others for Revolutionary, Appassionata, Liszt Consolation etc.  haa proven to be one the best features of this forum, transforming it in a terrific  collection of  top ‘online masterclasses’.  

So my proposal is:  why don’t we instituzionalize the ‘work in progress’ formula? We could  create through a poll a list of pieces  we whish to learn,  subscribing  to one or more of them; or we could devise an apposite board to work at a given piece in a sort of joint venture.
We can count on a team of awesome teachers: Birba, Rachfan, AJ (mentioned in no special order), but the idea is to use a flexible and democratic formula of interchangeable roles student/teacher.

Of course, all the subscribers are expected to give a concrete contribution,  recording his/her practice sessions of a given passage, section etc., and reciprocating the feedbacks obtained with constructive responses.. Concrete goals and  deadlines, the opportunities to experiment  new methods/approaches, etc.  could motivate us, and what’s more will discipline and optimize our practice.

This is  just a rough idea....my poor Engish and my scarce time at the moment don't allow me to elaborate further, but: what do you think?

Marg

[starstruck5]

Interesting idea.  Maybe a dedicated Project Board would be a great new addition -but posting them in Students Corner seems to be working ok?

A poll would suggest that some pieces would be restricted? which is not good.

[j_menz]

Maybe they could be a new child board to the student's corner?

[ajspiano]

Maybe they could be a new child board to the student's corner?

It would be excellent - the trouble would come with there being too different many 'projects' and the 'teachers' advice getting spread too thinly.

It would have to grow a bit, we need more contributors - and the students of any given thread need to be the teachers aswell. By that I mean that at the moment its a little bit like the students show their playing but without a huge amount of discussion about their thought process. We need to see students contributing a reasoned out thought process applying to their project.

Students should be saying (and really we are all students)..

"This is how I'm practicing, this is why i did it, this is the result"
"I think the dynamics should be like this, for this reason"
"these are the alternative fingerings I also tried, I like this one best because.."
"I find this section difficult, I've tried breaking it down this way and it did or didnt work"

If everyone contributed in this way the students would become the teachers fairly quickly, for both themselves and others.

[costicina]

Yes!!! It still need to be refined, but this is the idea. The idea is to have a wide ranges of  pieces, each with a sort of "practice case history" (divided by level-- beginners/intermediate/advanced- or by author? And how to order them? Alphabetlically, or by amount of contributions? Mmmh... ).

Don't worry, Starstruck. the poll was  meant as a way to find out which pieces can have a significant amount of feedbacks/contributions in order to   stay alive, not as a discriminating gesture... Anyway,  suggestions about how to  develop and improve the basic concept will be welcome!!!

Interchangeable roles are a key feature of the project. Illustrating her/his experiences, approaches, problems and solutions, each of us will act  both as student and as teacher.  To some extent, teaching and learning are two faces of the same process  Getting  active contributions should be one of the main goals of the project

As soon as I have finished this exhausting, unendless job I'll try to define  better the idea (and to come back to piano playing,  too!!!!   )

Marg  

[pianowolfi]

I like those projects very much, and also the 'project model' per se

[49410enrique]

so quick question(s) and suggestion(s),

does each student have their own 'project' that is one student one thread? or is the piece defining the project and thus multiple students working said work contribute to that thread (this seems to make the most sense so multiple threads on the same piece don't end up cluttering the board).

also for futre new projects, maybe some of the teachers and main instruction contributors can define a few preliminary paramters on basic standards for for the threads, that is how prepared a work should be before initial and perhaps folllow up videos are posted?

i.e be fore the first one goes up maybe say the first major section of a work or at the leas few complete phrases should be note fluent with basic dynamics, phrasing and voicing leanred and out of the way so suggestions and issues have a bit more merrit (i.e akin to having sufficinet preparation on a piece of music before a piano lesson so the instructor can actually find places of difficulty not associated with simple note learning/not enough practice on one's own). 

i think we should also asking that eventually or by the first video where possible the work should be memorized this would make things a lot easier on all i think (i know one of the professors at music school many of my friends used to and still study with won't even listen to you if the piece is not memorized, i.e. first piano lesson on a work don't bother showing up if you don't know the basics i.e. memorized notes, dynamics, etc).  just a thought, i don't think we need to quite go all the way there but surely i think eventually these projects should make their way to memory and eventually end with a capstone recording in the audition room.

i am considering jumping in on a couple projects but want some clarification on above raised questions (basically just on either works i am working up on my own before i take them to lessons or works i will just be doing on the side without using up piano lesson time, i.e personal projects, labors of love, etc. not official piano assignments, or at the least i will use the projects to get them up to a certain standard before transitioning them off the thread and into lesson repertoire).

thanks!

[costicina]

Hi Enrique, I’m so glad you are interested!

Your suggestions are very clever, I agree on everyting…Here are some ideas to define better the project:
1)   Is the piece that define the project, not the contrary; it should be an intermediate/advanced piece, not totally unknown, but not necessary as famous or overplayed as FI or the Rev.
2)   The student should have already sight-read through the piece, divided it into sections, identified the troublesome spots, etc. But starting the thread, she/he  may ask for advices about the general approach to adopt in her/his practice sessions.
3)   After a reasonable length of time, the student should post  a video of  a given part, a page, or only few bars, but fully memorized and played at her/his best. Alternatively, she/he should indicates which chunks are giving her/him troubles, explaining exactly the nature of the problem/s .
4)   As stated before, switching roles should be a crucial feature. Anyone who has studied, learned or tackled that piece and has some useful advices or suggestions, will be welcomed...


Any other suggestion will be appreciated!!! Join us,  Enrique  This approach to piano playing is very stimulating and insipiring, at least for me 

[danhuyle]

The 'project' model, based on the ones I've seen in student's corner, is for those who need assistance with technique, technical difficulties, execution of notes or practice techniques.

If you're a pianist who have the stuff on the 'project' model nipped in the bud, then you're best off using the audition room. You'd record yourself, critique your own playing and cover what went wrong with it to the best of your ability. If you get really stuck somewhere and you need someone else to hear your performance, then that's where the audition room is used.

Where does interpretation fit in? Since you can try out different interpretations for the same piece...

[johnmar78]

Well said Enrique "(i know one of the professors at music school many of my friends used to and still study with won't even listen to you if the piece is not memorized, "

I second to that. I only interested for those WILLING to put at least 2 hours a day or 14 hours a week to practice piano on top of there school work and jobs. Because I work full time, and there is no excuse for that such as " I got no time..I have sport....".

1) dedication -memorization -practice-result.

[costicina]

The 'project' model, based on the ones I've seen in student's corner, is for those who need assistance with technique, technical difficulties, execution of notes or practice techniques.

If you're a pianist who have the stuff on the 'project' model nipped in the bud, then you're best off using the audition room. You'd record yourself, critique your own playing and cover what went wrong with it to the best of your ability. If you get really stuck somewhere and you need someone else to hear your performance, then that's where the audition room is used.

Where does interpretation fit in? Since you can try out different interpretations for the same piece...

Well, the project model is meant as a tool for sharing experiences and wisdom on pianoplaying. If you are an accomplished pianist, you can contribute in the teacher role. This is not, as it may seems, a one way excanghe: trying to explain/communicate something to somebody can help a lot to clarify your own ideas.In this respect, teaching is a way to learn. And learning is a life process.

As for the interpretation side, in this case, too, different perspectives and a fruitful exchange of  ideas can  help to  enlarge our  horizons.
IMO; the project model is the best expression of the spirit of this forum, based on  reciprocation and mutual enrichment.
Birba's videos and contribution are the best example of all this

 

[candlelightpiano]

Since my name was mentioned by Marg, I feel that I must add my two cents to this thread.  

So far, I've begun and worked on two projects. In the first project (Fantasie Impromptu), I was the main student.  Other interested members came on board as the thread became more interesting. Birba posting video lessons helped create great interest, then AJ with his constant coaching and videos. I posted videos of my learning process and at first, did a good bit of talking in my videos. I talked about what I had learned or needed to work on or learn, my problems, etc. It was mostly me posting videos even though other members came on board. Most of them didn't post any videos at all and I couldn't make them.  Since the project was so dependent on me coming up with videos, I felt incredibly stressed because all my "followers" wanted more videos than I could produce and the thread was getting about 100 views or more daily!    Birba posts lots of practice videos for the Appasionata thread, which is terrific but my piano skills are so painfully limited that I am unable to produce a video a day.

Consolation No 3 is doing much better because we have more contributions from interested members. We've had videos not just from me, but also from Zoe, DT, Starstruck (audio), Danhuyle.  AJ continues to be the guiding light and has even composed an etude for us! Megadodd came on board and coached us as he knows this piece well.  So it's a much more interesting and lively thread and we're learning a lot from each other.  I began taking piano lessons on Wednesday and I shared what I learned in a video with the others and I think it was all fun for everyone and hopefully, educational as well.  And I will continue to post my "lessons" for everyone in the spirit of sharing and learning.  

I don't know if I will start another project.  I think there may be too many going on at present. As AJ said, the teachers are spread too thin when there are so many projects. I think it's a good idea to begin a thread asking what pieces would be of interest to many members. They could post their ideas on that thread and if there is enough interest in a piece (at least 3 members and even better, if some teachers would volunteer), these three can get together to begin a project rather than each individual starting a project. All members of this project team MUST agree to contribute with videos often and regularly, thus making the project interesting and motivating for everyone.  

I'm glad I began my first project and I'm glad it has inspired others to do the same.  From the bottom of my heart, I thank Birba and AJ for coming on board and coaching me through the project.  I'm still working on FI and I won't let them down.  I will post my completed project one of these days.  Many thanks, AJ and Megadodd, for your guidance through Consolation No 3.  

[costicina]

Since my name was mentioned by Marg, I feel that I must add my two cents to this thread. 



II think it's a good idea to begin a thread asking what pieces would be of interest to many members. They could post their ideas on that thread and if there is enough interest in a piece (at least 3 members and even better, if some teachers would volunteer), these three can get together to begin a project rather than each individual starting a project. All members of this project team MUST agree to contribute with videos often and regularly, thus making the project interesting and motivating for everyone. 

That's a good idea, Choo!!! That's why I mentioned  a 'poll' of some kind, and why my Prokofiev has proven a  'message in a bottle'.... Anyway, I'll use your 'model' as a kind of journal for myself. It helps to organize better and more puroposefully your practice.

 And you are right, too, about the stress of producing a video regularly. But the video wouldn't be necessary of a finished part: it can also cover only few bars  to illustrate a problem, a tentative solution, etc.
Good luck with your Consolation!!!
Amrg