Without trying to sound sexist....

[Ludvig_Van_Me]

...are there certain pieces that the female of the species would struggle with?



For instance I can't imagine a female playing The Hammerklavier with the required force needed, unless it's that time of the mont....uh nevermind

[super_ardua]

Probably not

[Spatula]

Not that I can think off.  Most of all the piano pieces should be able to be played by both sexes if at least they have 10 fingers and a brain.

But I think guys and girls INTERPRET music differently...if that's what you're getting at.

[JK]

...are there certain pieces that the female of the species would struggle with?



For instance I can't imagine a female playing The Hammerklavier with the required force needed, unless it's that time of the mont....uh nevermind

haha, I think you're on wafer thin ice with some members of this forum if you're not careful! I don't think so, having seen Martha Argerich play prok no.3!

[Spatula]

haha, I think you're on wafer thin ice with some members of this forum if you're not careful! I don't think so, having seen Martha Argerich play prok no.3!

or rach 3...bah enough of that! grr for some reason that piece has been beaten with a stick then a baseball bat then a sledgehammer.

[Daevren]

Are there any pieces that require your penis to hit the keys?

I was not aware of that.


The reason that most great musicians are male is because females prefer a more balanced life. And this is actually a better thing to do. Males are more often obsessed with something. Helps alot wth science and art.

[thracozaag]

...are there certain pieces that the female of the species would struggle with?



For instance I can't imagine a female playing The Hammerklavier with the required force needed, unless it's that time of the mont....uh nevermind

 I believe such grand dames of the keyboard as Teresa Carreno, Myra Hess, Annie Fischer and Gina Bachauer would take great umbrage at that statement.

koji (STSD)

[donjuan]

For instance I can't imagine a female playing The Hammerklavier with the required force needed, unless it's that time of the mont....uh nevermind

well, I dont know too much about women- but I dont think statements like that will get you laid any time soon...

[ahmedito]

Dame Mayra Hess' Hammerklavier sonata is one of the best I have ever heard.

Playing the piano doesn't require great physical strength, after a certain limit it really doesnt make a difference. Even though there are women with great physical strength, it really doesn't make that much of a difference when playing the piano. Alicia de la Rocha is one of the tiniest women that comes to mind, but her Albeniz is impressive, FFFs and all.

[Sketchee]

IIRC, Chopin wasn't exactly most physically strong man around.  Actually, I'm not either (weighing in at 90lb).

[cziffra777]

IIRC, Chopin wasn't exactly most physically strong man around.  

He wasn't. He was ill for much of his life, which contributed to this. I've read accounts of his playing that say he didn't go above a mezzo-forte.

[faulty_damper]

well, I dont know too much about women- but I dont think statements like that will get you laid any time soon...  

Women can play anything a man can play.

[Tash]

well, I dont know too much about women- but I dont think statements like that will get you laid any time soon...

LOL hahahaha damn right!

as a female, i can't say i've ever played anything and wished i was male to give it some more force.

[Ludvig_Van_Me]

well, I dont know too much about women- but I dont think statements like that will get you laid any time soon...

Not for anyone else no, but I'm no ordinary person.

I don't have to talk much, I let the fingeres do the talking (Oi cheeky, not that )

Chicks love the piano almost as much as the guys that play them.

[LordK]

The reason that most great musicians are male is because females prefer a more balanced life. And this is actually a better thing to do. Males are more often obsessed with something. Helps alot wth science and art.

Generalisations like that are unhelpful and largely inaccurate.

Most famous great musicians and artists are male because historically men have been more prominent, in the days gone by when a woman's place was at home. As social factors change, the balance between successful men and women will change also.

[Daevren]

For every succesful famous musician/scientists there are a dozen 'failed' ones.

My point wasn't about being succesful. It was about obsessive behaviour. That is a male thing. Just check the research. There are much more males with OCD than females.

Generalisations are in general very helpful and increase accuracy.

[DarkWind]

Actually, if you let full gravity take control of your drops for fortes, the only things stopping you from making a louder sound is the piano itself.

[vis]

required force needed

have you ever seen Olga Kern play? She looks small in photos, but when she plays fortissimo passages it looks and sounds like the strings on the piano are about to rip. And to beat rach3 with a stick one more time, I recommend the dvd "clyburn: playing on the edge" which features a full performance of rach3 by her, which is absolutely beautiful.

[Shagdac]

And to beat rach3 with a stick one more time, I recommend the dvd "clyburn: playing on the edge" which features a full performance of rach3 by her, which is absolutely beautiful.  

I definately agree, Olga Kern is fantastic. Wow, what a stage presence she has, and I also have the "Playing on the edge" video. Unfortunately, it does not have a full performance of the Rach 3, only the beginning parts, the very end and some of the middle. I wish it was the entire performance!

I also agree that if the proper technique is used, the same volume can be acheived playing the piano, male or female. As far as men being more obsessive, I don't necessarily think that is true. I do feel that there are areas in which men ARE more obsessive, possibly sports and obtaining status symbols of success. But by far, women obsess much more over their appearance, organizational practices and family oriented goals.

Of the 11 physicians I have worked for in the past, there were far more females with OCD's than males. Many times the females were more open in discussing their obsessions, but few females did anything about it, providing it did not interrupt daily routines, family, etc.
I guess it would also depend on what was diagnosing criteria used for labelling one with OCD?

Just my thoughts.

S

[xvimbi]

I definately agree, Olga Kern is fantastic. Wow, what a stage presence she has, and I also have the "Playing on the edge" video. Unfortunately, it does not have a full performance of the Rach 3, only the beginning parts, the very end and some of the middle. I wish it was the entire performance!

I do have the DVD version. The complete performance (both Yudenich's as well as Kern's) are on the B side. But I don't know about the VHS version.

[LordK]

For every succesful famous musician/scientists there are a dozen 'failed' ones.

Equating success with ability is unfair. For every successful famous musician there may be a a hundred extremely talented ones who have "failed" for reasons unrelated to their musical proficiency.

As a result, the gender distribution of successful musicians does not necessarily reflect the distribution of talent.

My point wasn't about being succesful. It was about obsessive behaviour. That is a male thing. Just check the research. There are much more males with OCD than females.

The male/female balance of OCD suffers is of no relevance to the gender balance of musicians unless a significant majority of musicians are OCD sufferers. This is highly improbable given that OCD is in most cases a serious handicap.

Generalisations are in general very helpful and increase accuracy.

Only when they are based on relevant facts and valid reasoning. Your statement that "most great musicians are male because males are more obsessive" is entirely fallacious and almost certainly false.

[Motrax]

Furthermore, only pianists have been mentioned in this topic. The ratio for violinists (male/female) is much closer to one than that of pianists. And measure "success," you would have to look at how many successful female pianists there are compared with the amount of total female pianists - if only (to give arbitrary numbers) 20 females play piano, and three become successful, that's better than 100 guys who play piano, 10 of whom make it big.

Back to reality, even the numbers are more even for pianists than you'd think. Go to any store selling classical CDs, and you'll find that there are many female pianists you probably haven't heard of who's recordings can be seen on the shelves. And in my opinion, one of the best pianists in the world (and I believe she may become THE best) is Olga Kern.

[Daevren]

For every successful famous musician there may be a a hundred extremely talented ones who have "failed" for reasons unrelated to their musical proficiency.

You are repeating me exactly, you even use the same words... So why is it unfair?  

As a result, the gender distribution of successful musicians does not necessarily reflect the distribution of talent.

I am not saying that. I am only saying males tend to more obssesive, as a result creating alot of musicians and scientists far abone average. Not because they have more talent, females have probably more, but because they put insane amounts of work in it.

The male/female balance of OCD suffers is of no relevance to the gender balance of musicians unless a significant majority of musicians are OCD sufferers. This is highly improbable given that OCD is in most cases a serious handicap.

I am not saying that musicians can only be good if they have or suffer from OCD. I am only saying that males are more obsessive. Explaining the gender difference we see. Do you really think females lack strenght or talent? Or do you really think its just the female stereotype that prohibits then from becomming famous or a musician in the first place? Maybe I am being naieve but I find both ridiculous.

Also, OCD is just obsessive behavior of that type so bad we define it as something we called OCD. Obsessive behavior of a genius musician is generally exactly the same as the obsessive behavior of someone with OCD.

Only when they are based on relevant facts and valid reasoning. Your statement that "most great musicians are male because males are more obsessive" is entirely fallacious and almost certainly false.

Let me recapitulate, generalisations are unhelpful and largely inaccurate, except when they are accurate(ie based on relevant facts and valid reasoning)?

I am not making that statement. I am making these statements:
Males are more obsessive than females.
Most musicians are male(for several reasons, including obsessiveness/dedication).
Most genius musicians are genius because they are obsessive, not because of their natural talent, but because of hard work/dedication.
Being obsessive helps with hard word/dedication.
Males are generally better at hard word/dedication.
Most genius musicians are male, because most musicians are male and because males are more obsessive.

So in general, males try harder.

And your statement about enlarging the discussion and moving it to violin because piano might not be representative doesn't help you at all. Piano isn't representative, because it has so many females, not little.
Out of classical, female musicians are very very rare, with the exception of singers. Piano is already a female strong instrument. I could name 1 non-classical female musician for every 10 female classical musician. And I could name 50 non-classical musicians for every classical musician. I could name 2000 male jazz musicians for every female jazz musician.

So it has nothing to do with females lacking talent, in any area, its just that they make different choices. Maybe better, less selfish, choices. And this goes for all kinds of art and science.


BTW, you know why I think classical music has so many females? Because as children they were sent to the music school by their parents. They were forced at first, and when they had to make a choice about continuing themselves they had already learned to love it. I am not sure about this one, I was never able to find the stats to back it up.

[mound]

From C.C. Chang's "Fundamentals of Piano Practice"

It may seem unbelievable at first, but an under-weight 6-year-old and a gargantuan sumo wrestler dropping their hands from the same height will produce sound of the same loudness. This happens because the speed of gravitational fall is independent of mass and the hammer goes into free flight as soon as the knuckle leaves the jack (the last few millimeters before hitting the strings).

[xvimbi]

From C.C. Chang's "Fundamentals of Piano Practice"
It may seem unbelievable at first, but an under-weight 6-year-old and a gargantuan sumo wrestler dropping their hands from the same height will produce sound of the same loudness. This happens because the speed of gravitational fall is independent of mass and the hammer goes into free flight as soon as the knuckle leaves the jack (the last few millimeters before hitting the strings).

This is at best misleading and at worst plain wrong. It is true that the acceleration produced by gravitation is independent of the accelerated object (to a first approximation at least), but the acceleration of a hammer (and therefore the loudness produced) depends on the momentum, not the velocity of the hand. Momentum equals mass times velocity, so two hands with different mass but the same velocity will have different momenti. This is easy to verify. Just drop two objects with different mass onto your keyboard from the same height.

Edited: used the physically correct term "momentum", rather than "impact"

[thracozaag]

From C.C. Chang's "Fundamentals of Piano Practice"

 I find this exceedingly difficult to believe, I'm afraid.

koji (STSD)

[LordK]

This is at best misleading and at worst plain wrong. It is true that the acceleration produced by gravitation is independent of the accelerated object (to a first approximation at least), but the acceleration of a hammer (and therefore the loudness produced) depends on the impact, not the velocity of the hand. Impact equals mass times velocity, so two hands with different mass but the same velocity will have different impacts. This is easy to verify. Just drop two objects with different mass onto your keyboard from the same height.

It's "impulse" actually, not impact, but yes, you are right and the original quotation is wrong. According to the book, dropping a car key onto the keyboard should produce the same volume as a bowling ball, which is patently absurd.

Edit: you edited your post at the same time I posted my response. Momentum is mass times velocity, impulse is an instantaneous change in momentum caused by a collision.

[allchopin]

Mound:
We all thank you greatly for bringing a quote from a well-informed individual into the thread, but if you choose to do so, include the whole quote.  For the rest of us, read #10 under piano practice where this is written.

Really reminds me of the media during elections, quoting something from a candidate like, "I will do everything I can to protect Suddam Hussein", but neglected to mention that the rest of the sentence was " 's American hostages."

[super_ardua]

This is at best misleading and at worst plain wrong. It is true that the acceleration produced by gravitation is independent of the accelerated object (to a first approximation at least), but the acceleration of a hammer (and therefore the loudness produced) depends on the momentum, not the velocity of the hand. Momentum equals mass times velocity, so two hands with different mass but the same velocity will have different momenti. This is easy to verify. Just drop two objects with different mass onto your keyboard from the same height.

Edited: used the physically correct term "momentum", rather than "impact"

Furthermore the properties of the impact affect the sound :

ft = change in momentum

f = change in momentum/t

so your hand position does affect your sound.  Whether you "play with bone" or "play with skin" does affect the force you strike the key with (because the accelaration of the hammer is directly proportional to the unbalanced force f and the way you press the key determines the time taken to stop).  So if you drop a lead weight and bag of sawdust with the same mass on the keys they will produce different loudness.

So it may have something to do with hand weight,  but also how force is transfered into the keys (technique).

[piano_learner]

Go to any store selling classical CDs, and you'll find that there are many female pianists you probably haven't heard of who's recordings can be seen on the shelves.

Is this because nobody is buying them?

[mound]

Mound:
We all thank you greatly for bringing a quote from a well-informed individual into the thread, but if you choose to do so, include the whole quote.  For the rest of us, read #10 under piano practice where this is written.

Point well taken, I apologize. I wasn't at all intending to strip out of context a portion to illustrate a point (like somebody suggested the media is increasingly guilty of). Following my quoted portion he went on to explain physics, ultimately mentioning that the Sumo wrestler would be a bit louder because of momentum conservation, "but the difference will be quite small".
You're right though, he does go on to explain this further, I didn't want to paste too huge a chunk of his book into my post!

BUT - honestly my point wasn't even in fact to agree or disagree with what Chang wrote, rather, simply to "state" (albeit in a roundabout way) that a small woman is equally capable as a large man (like myself) of playing explosively at the keyboard  

In fact I'm sure there are many small women who could play circles around me. Maybe some Sumo wrestlers too  

[Motrax]

piano_learner, people who actually enjoy classical music DO buy these CDs. It's the ignorant who will settle for an all-Cziffra collection, or who only buy Horowitz and Ashkenazy.

Off the top of my head, some wonderfully talented female pianists... Olga Kern, Ethella Chuprick, Dubravka Tomsic, the Labeque Sisters, Orli Shaham, Helene Grimaux...

Perhaps you should go buy some CDs of pianists who you've never heard of. You'll find that expanding your horizons can actually lead to rewarding results. There are many little-known gems of interperetation which don't get publicity merely because the pianist doesn't have a big name.

[piano_learner]

It's the ignorant who will settle for an all-Cziffra collection, or who only buy Horowitz and Ashkenazy.

Off the top of my head, some wonderfully talented female pianists... Olga Kern, Ethella Chuprick, Dubravka Tomsic, the Labeque Sisters, Orli Shaham, Helene Grimaux...

You'll find that expanding your horizons can actually lead to rewarding results. There are many little-known gems of interperetation which don't get publicity merely because the pianist doesn't have a big name.

Hi Motrax,

Actually my ill considered joke only served to highlight my ignorance. Although I have been learning Piano for about 10 months I have had an interest in Keyboards/Synths and Piano since childhood. I developed a taste for 'electronic' music and artists such as Jean Michel Jarre at an early age. And to make you and others in this forum cringe in horror, I like the underground Techno/Rave music that emerged in the early 90's.

So why would I learn piano I hear you ask?

At heart I am a purist and have wanted to play Piano since childhood. My parents didn't nurture my interest so it wasn't until I could afford to do it myself that I made my first attemtp to learn. However, at the tender age of 20, I thought I was too old to acquire the necessary skill and thought it was easier to make 'music' using samplers, synthesizers a drum machine and a sequencer.

Now, at the ripe old age of 36, I am finally doing what I wish I had done 20 years ago :-(

So, I will *definitely* take on board your musical recommendations as I wish to expand my music horizons. As someone once said, once the mind has been expanded it can never return to it's original size.

Take care

[anda]

Women can play anything a man can play.

i'll second that! only thing, they will probably play differently - which is not such a bad thing after all! anyway, i do think that women play differently (not worse, not better, just differently) from man, and it's not a question of physical strength (you don't need to be 200 pounds to play prokofiev or brahms, you just need to have a good arm technique) but a question of brain usage balance - it's scientifically demonstrated that women use more of their left side than man, and less of their right side.

anyway, women like Dame Myra Hess or Martha Argerich or Annie Fischer are different from all women.

and i'll add another question: how about works played "better" by women than by men? any ideas?

[stefano]

Women cannot play brahms piano concerto no.2 its as simple as that

[m]

For instance I can't imagine a female playing The Hammerklavier with the required force needed, unless it's that time of the mont....uh nevermind

Hmmm.... Interesting.....
I never thought that music, and particularly Hammerklavier, needs force.
Maria Yudina still remains one of my favorite Hammerklavier recordings. The majesty of her first and last movements, expressiveness and music tension of her slow movement are just stunning.
Natasha Tadson played in her recital in first half Hammerklavier, and in second--Liszt twelve Transcendental etudes, when she was.... 8 months pregnant.
 

Women cannot play brahms piano concerto no.2 its as simple as that

How so? and why is it that simple?

Cannot wait untill Julie391 chimes in with her pick on the topic

[Brian Healey]

Are there any pieces that require your penis to hit the keys?

I was not aware of that.

Ha ha! I shall compose one then!

It will be called "Etude for the 11th Finger" 

[julie391]

Women cannot play brahms piano concerto no.2 its as simple as that

 

i have to add, that - whilt there are exceptions - us females generally have a harder time playing music demanding larger spans and greater force - due to the lesser strength and hand size among females in general.

but there are exceptions to this , and it just so happans that my favourite female pianists are of this exceptional type

to name a couple composers less suited to people of lesser strength - ornstein and antheil come to mind - with their raw pounding tone clusters.

[Bob]

Nice knowing you Ludvig.....   


related idea:
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php?topic=5480.new


Thinking about it more now, it doesn't sound unpleasant to listen to an attractive female performer playing "feminine" music.... sigh....

[Daniel_piano]

Women can play anything a man can play.

 - it's scientifically demonstrated that women use more of their left side than man, and less of their right side.

Not true
If that were true woman would be computers without sentiments
In fact, humans already use too much of the left side (dry, calculator, computistic, asentimental, temporal, symbolic, rational) and if women would use even more than men they would be like machines without emotion
What has been demonstrated is that people who has more fantasy, emotional feelings, artistic skill, instinctive thoughts, concrete intuitions use more of the right side , those peolpe more asentimental, calculator, mathematic, anti-instinctive with no artistic skill use more of their left side
The real difference is between children and adults
Children use more their right side until their turn 12 (this is though a social conditioning and not a physiological change)

Scince actually has explained (especially lately) that women and men identical except for their anatomy
But their brain work in the same way or better yet despite being male or female there are different personalities and no one is peculiar of one sex
Tender and sensitive people can be both male or female, sentimental and kind people can be both male or female, sex-obsessed people can both male and female,  rude and violent people can be both male and female
All the personality characteristic that seem to distinguish a man from a female are just cultural conditioned
Woman moving elegantly and using make up, man having short hair women having long hair, men more interested in sport women more interested in shopping, men  less sensitive women more sensitive, men not crying women crying, boy playing with guns and machines girls playing with dolls.... there's nothing natural in it, it's just a cultural conditioning and let me say this a BAD cultural conditioning since it originated from the role of men in war (emotion of sentimentalism and fear banned from young boys so that they will be better able to kill the enemy without remorses) and the role of women as the slaves of men (having to dress nicely, having to stay home and never try to beome something else as the property of man; and playing with dolls was part of the "men property" conditioning) there many Eriksonian books of this matter
Anyway, things are changing now; women fight no to men properties anymore and was is not any longer a unquestionable duty and pacifist and antimilitarists are more than ever in history
So, no brain difference from men and women just cultural imprinting that todat are developing different personalities on people despite their being men or women

And for men or woman playing better because of different strength just let me tell that there are a lo of woman stronger than men
Women were not less strong because of a highly different muscular mass but because according to their imprinting they could not develop their physique: boys climbed trees, girls didn't, boys did sport, girls didn't, boys rode bycicles, girls didn't (it was not allowed to use bicycle if you were a girl some times ago in Europe) and so on
Women were undermuscled and there nothing natural in that
Today with the free of "exercising" whatever by playing or doing sport or working in the countryside, woman are strng as man
Again, there are strong people and less strong people despite their sex
I know lot of women that are stronger than a lot of men (when they don' use steroids or consume growth hormones through hormonated meat)
In fact, there are now quite a few of assiciations for the protection of husbands victim of their violent wives

Daniel

[RacerX]

It's all technique in how efficient you can depress the ivories.  If you are one of those key pounder types, you won't last a piece say like Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue....  Your arms will start to burn and you will start hitting bad notes, loosing your timing, etc.

Steve