Are sFz and fP Synonyms?

[1piano4joe]

If fP (fortepiano) means loud then immediately soft and sFz (sforzando) means a sudden accent on a note or chord then how exactly are they different?

How can one play fP on the piano anyway? Does this mean play forte for 1 note or beat and then the next note or beats piano? Once a note is sounded on piano, isn't the volume "set"? I have played the organ which has a right foot volume pedal and could play fP on any note. So I guess they are both accents for a note or chord but probably differ mainly in what happens after the accent?

Did I just answer my own question? or maybe partly?

In sFz, the s means subito or suddenly, so therefore, suddenly forceful right? but maybe you just return to whatever dynamics you were previously using and not necessarily p (piano) like in fP?

Maybe you can play forte without accenting? but if you immediately play piano doesn't it still sound accented?

Maybe in fP you have a crescendo to the forte as it is not prefixed with the Italian subito?

Any insight as always is greatly appreciated, Thank you, Joe.

[pianowolfi]

No, these two are not synonymous.

sfz means sforzato or sforzando. The "s" doesn't mean subito/suddenly. It may very well appear as a climax after a dynamic buildup. A sfz is generally dependant on the dynamical context, basically a stronger accent. It can appear in every dynamic environment, be it a pp, p, cresc. dim. ff or whatever.
Whereas a Fp means literally Forte, followed by a subito P, and it should stay piano afterwards until further markings appear.
At least that's the correct interpretation of these two, as Beethoven used them, for instance.

[werq34ac]

If fP (fortepiano) means loud then immediately soft and sFz (sforzando) means a sudden accent on a note or chord then how exactly are they different?

you just answered your own question. Loud then immediately soft does not mean a sudden accent on a note/chord. Although I feel like sforzando should be taken literally. The illusion that some students have is that accent means play the note louder. This is actually an oversimplification. Although the note IS louder, accents indicate that more force should be used meaning that one should "attack" the note. Whether it's indicated by a > or sFz determines how forceful the attack is.

As for fp, you play forte one note, and you play softly as soon as possible. Which probably means the next note is going to be soft.

Well, actually in Beethoven's time, pianos had a faster decay of sound meaning that every note played on the piano got immediately softer after being played.

sFz i don't know if the s means subito, but otherwise yes. You do return to the previous dynamic. Although in general, a series of sforzandos mean get louder (especially in Beethoven).

fp you don't crescendo to it at all unless indicated. And yes fp is played without accenting. However, playing piano afterwards does not make it sound accentuated. It's all in the attack. One can even play an accent softly.

[nystul]

In a sense such articulations are only illusions on a piano, because you simply cannot shape a single note the way you can for example with bowed or wind instruments.  So you are being asked to do something that you cannot really do in a literal sense.

[werq34ac]

In a sense such articulations are only illusions on a piano, because you simply cannot shape a single note the way you can for example with bowed or wind instruments.  So you are being asked to do something that you cannot really do in a literal sense.

You can play a note forte and not accented on the piano. At the same time you can play a note at the same volume and yet accented. Yes one cannot change the sound AFTER the note is played (except maybe with the pedal) which makes HOW YOU PRESS THE NOTE IN THE FIRST PLACE so important.

[1piano4joe]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond.

This is what I gather so far.

First, the fP.

Your playing along (ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff,cresc,descr) whatever, it doesn't matter and then you see the sign fP. You change your dynamic,not gradually, but instantaneously to forte for exactly one note only, and then the next note drops dynamically 3 "relative" sound levels lower to piano skipping mf and mp in the process. There is no accent whatsoever. Essentially fp could be written as two separate signs. The ordinary f, forte and then a p, piano would accomplish the same thing. So, apparently then f+p=fp. Is that all there is to it? 

Now the sFz.

I am familiar with light, medium and strong accents. They have symbols and names.

I know of:

staccato and staccatissimo, the two light accents. A dot and a wedge respectively.

martelato the strong accent. A carat, capital Lambda or an upside down letter v. It looks like this ^.

marcato and tenuto, the two medium accents, > and -.

So just how strong is the "attack" of a sFz. Is it always the strongest of the attacks even stronger than martelato ^? Or does it depend on the context so that the strength then is variable from one situation to the next?

Thank you, Joe.



 

[johnmar78]

Joe, Sf, Fp, or pp  varies from music to music and composer to compser. And it depends on the contex of the music. During the performing, it is upto an individual artist to image/project/balnce the sound. Therefore, ther eis no strict set of rules HOW LOUD you have to play. It must be done is a musical sense and good taste I hope this answers your question.

Ps, Chopin vs Beetoven vs Racf. And you know who has a strongest hands...tehreofroe his dynamic markings is different.

[werq34ac]

You're concept of dynamics is somewhat simplified, joe. Yes, we define certain levels of dynamics to be f, p, mp, mf, ff, etc. However, who's to say just how loud forte is? And is forte always the same? Can't you have louder fortes and softer fortes while still being forte? Rather than shifting levels between dynamics, you should see dynamics as a continuous spectrum.

Anyway, fp yes that is how it is done, but it should be within context. I'm not exactly sure, but I believe that if one is playing very soft (pp, ppp), mf or perhaps even mp should be plenty loud enough for a fp due to the nature of the piano. Remember that although the note on the piano dies away, it still sustains itself for quite some time. The louder one plays a note, the longer it takes for the note to get softer. The piano after the forte should sound sudden, almost as if the note itself were forte and then piano. Although this isn't easily replicated on the piano, the sudden drop in sound will somewhat evoke this.

As for sfz, yes they have the strongest attack. In general the attack should be quite sharp (dynamic-wise, not pitch-wise). However, how strong depends on context. You might want to produce a very rhythmic but almost ugly sound, or you might want to produce a more melodic "broad" sound although the idea of a "round" sound is hard to reconcile with a strong attack.

[1piano4joe]

I believe that dynamics are a continuous spectrum. There are an infinite number of sound intensity levels (decibels) between even the closest common designations. The problem is inherent in the notation commonly used. And this is a good thing to be sure. Consider the alternative below.

The EMR spectrum is continuouus. Let's just consider for a moment the visible portion though. The so called Roy G. Biv. (Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, Violet.

One color (because it is continuous and not discrete) blends into the next. How many blues are there? An infinite number I suppose. These are vaguely defined in physics as follows:

<400 Ultraviolet (Humans can't see this)
400-440 nanometers Violet
440-480 nm Blue 
480-560 nm Green
560-590 nm Yellow
590-630 nm Orange
630-700 nm Red
>700 Infrared (Humans can't see these either)

I believe Crayola crayons sells a box with 256 different colored crayons. And this is for amateurs as the true artists mix their own colors right on the palette and are not limited by the size of the box of crayons. They just do it on the fly. There are no written instructions which is what composers attempt to do with the score.

Could you imagine the complexity involved in learning that many Italian dynamic designations?
This accounts for the simplification. That's all anyone should need really.

I understand all to well how the score (written notation) is only a guide and not "carved in stone".
 
There is no such crudely defined demarcations in decibels (to my knowledge anyway). If there were they would look something like this:

ppp 10 Decibels
pp   20 dB
p     30 dB
mp   40 dB
mf    50 dB
f       60 dB
ff       70 dB
fff       80 dB

I don't know how loud a piano can sound in decibels. This would of course depend on so many factors. Generally, the larger the grand the louder it can play. Not always true as it depends on the brand. Generally, grands can play louder than uprights. Again not always true. Then there is the performer. This factor might be more true than the others and accounts for the string breakers.

If dynamics were defined along these lines then my Schulze-Pollman upright (a very fine piano by the way) could not play certain dynamics defined in this manner.

And, yes I could play a scale 4 octaves with a 4 octave crescendo all at p (piano). My fingers do it all the time but honestly I don't hear the increase in volume from note to note.

Usually, passages are much shorter. Crescendos may be over a handful of notes and my teacher says not to play two consecutive notes the same volume. I find this to be a useful rule of thumb but like many others I break it all the time. 

Thanks everyone for the replies. It is wonderful to be able to bounce whatever your wondering about and get so fast a response, Joe.

[timothy42b]

You can play a note forte and not accented on the piano.

No, you can't.

I can, I'm a brass player, but a piano player cannot.

(you said a note.  If the note is not isolation, it can be done.  You can have several notes in a row all marked forte, and one accented;  for that you must separate)

[werq34ac]

No, you can't.

I can, I'm a brass player, but a piano player cannot.

(you said a note.  If the note is not isolation, it can be done.  You can have several notes in a row all marked forte, and one accented;  for that you must separate)

I'm not sure what you mean. Since when has forte meant accented? According to my knowledge, never.

[timothy42b]

I'm not sure what you mean. Since when has forte meant accented? According to my knowledge, never.

Quite right.  Forte also doesn't mean fast, and piano doesn't mean slow, although that is another common misinterpretation.

What i mean is that if you press the key with sufficient velocity to get a forte, that is all you can do to affect the tone.  You cannot start a note with any type of accent, it is scientifically impossible.  Nor can you diminuendo faster than the physics of the string allow.  Neither is true with wind instruments, where you can add these effects. 

[werq34ac]

Actually, with a bit of pedaling magic, you CAN diminuendo faster than the physics of the strings allow. If you actually release the keys with your fingers and diminuendo with ONLY the pedal, one can actually accomplish this. Of course, it takes a LOT of control with the pedal.

And actually, there is more than just finger velocity that determines the sound. Because energy/momentum rather than velocity is transferred, mass also makes a difference. Which means that how much weight you apply when pressing a key is ALSO quite important. KE=.5mv^2 and m1v1=m2v2. Basic laws of physics. It's a combination of mass and velocity that determine the sound.

And besides, you quoted me saying "You can play a note forte and not accented on the piano"
And you said to that, "No you can't."
Then I reply that forte doesn't mean accented.
And then you say "Quite right."
I believe some clarification is required?

And what do you mean "Forte also doesn't mean fast, and piano doesn't mean slow."
As in, forte doesn't mean faster finger velocity when striking the key? Or forte does not mean a faster tempo? (Although at higher speeds, one must play softer because the sound is more "compressed" and thus sounds louder).
If you mean finger velocity, then yes, forte doesn't mean fast, forte could mean heavy, but on the piano, one can accent the note by increasing finger velocity. While if one is going for an unacccented sound, then one uses their weight in order to achieve the sound.

And one more thing, every simplification is an oversimplification (see the irony?). There's always exceptions.

[timothy42b]

And actually, there is more than just finger velocity that determines the sound. Because energy/momentum rather than velocity is transferred, mass also makes a difference. Which means that how much weight you apply when pressing a key is ALSO quite important. KE=.5mv^2 and m1v1=m2v2. Basic laws of physics. It's a combination of mass and velocity that determine the sound.

The science is clear.  There is no such thing as touch.  How loud you play a key is how loud you play a note. 

And besides, you quoted me saying "You can play a note forte and not accented on the piano"
And you said to that, "No you can't."

You are misquoting, or misunderstanding.  A single note (a note) can't really be accented on the piano.  You have control over the volume, but NOT the attack.  You can't sneak into a note and crescendo, or the reverse.  This is in contrast to wind instruments and string instruments which can. 

Then I reply that forte doesn't mean accented.
And then you say "Quite right."
I believe some clarification is required?

Forte can be legato or detached.  Obviously this cannot apply to a single note, but only to a group of notes.  And that's all you can do - various degrees of legato or detachment. 

And what do you mean "Forte also doesn't mean fast, and piano doesn't mean slow."

Off topic, but an extremely common saying among musicians.  The tendency to play loud passages faster and soft passages slower is almost irresistible for the beginner. 

(Although at higher speeds, one must play softer because the sound is more "compressed" and thus sounds louder).

I don't understand this.  It is intriguing, please explain. 

 

If you mean finger velocity, then yes, forte doesn't mean fast, forte could mean heavy, but on the piano, one can accent the note by increasing finger velocity. While if one is going for an unacccented sound, then one uses their weight in order to achieve the sound.

Nah.  That's a myth.  It may be a useful mental image for some, but it doesn't really happen. 

[werq34ac]

The science is clear.  There is no such thing as touch.  How loud you play a key is how loud you play a note.
You are misquoting, or misunderstanding.  A single note (a note) can't really be accented on the piano.  You have control over the volume, but NOT the attack.  You can't sneak into a note and crescendo, or the reverse.  This is in contrast to wind instruments and string instruments which can. 

Really? Then how come I hear a difference? How can we play chords loudly without banging then? How is banging actually possible if pianos are incapable of accents?

Forte can be legato or detached.  Obviously this cannot apply to a single note, but only to a group of notes.  And that's all you can do - various degrees of legato or detachment. 

Of course you can change the duration of a single note. Why not? Although legato vs. detached does depend on the next note and whether there is a space between them. But I thought we were discussing the beginning of the note. If one cannot control the attack, then how is continuity of sound achieved?

Off topic, but an extremely common saying among musicians.  The tendency to play loud passages faster and soft passages slower is almost irresistible for the beginner

ah that. Yes beginners often do this, but that in itself is illogical. There is no reason to play faster when playing loud or slower when playing soft. I suppose it has to do with musical excitement or lack thereof (did I use that word correctly?).

I don't understand this.  It is intriguing, please explain.

It mostly applies to learning fast pieces. At slower speeds, the notes are further apart in time so the texture is more transparent. Nearing final tempos, the notes are closer together (compressed) in time so the texture is thicker. The notes have less time to decay before the next and the sound builds up (especially if you have pedal). Thus one might want to play a little softer at higher speeds. The final judge of whether this is necessary is the ear. It doesn't make a large difference, but it does make a difference.

Nah.  That's a myth.  It may be a useful mental image for some, but it doesn't really happen.

Mental images often translate into music however. The mind is incredibly powerful and sometimes just thinking of the idea to be communicated points students in the right direction in terms of interpretation. The difference between pros and amateurs is how far they take this direction.

[nyiregyhazi]

No, these two are not synonymous.

sfz means sforzato or sforzando. The "s" doesn't mean subito/suddenly. It may very well appear as a climax after a dynamic buildup. A sfz is generally dependant on the dynamical context, basically a stronger accent. It can appear in every dynamic environment, be it a pp, p, cresc. dim. ff or whatever.
Whereas a Fp means literally Forte, followed by a subito P, and it should stay piano afterwards until further markings appear.
At least that's the correct interpretation of these two, as Beethoven used them, for instance.

I used to think this, but the subito is actually pretty dubious- certainly in the pathetique chords. Fp was an old style of saying to return to piano after. Some people assume the pathetique requires some remarkable effect- but the marking just means to be quieter on the following note. It doesn't have to imply any subito.

[nyiregyhazi]

You are misquoting, or misunderstanding.  A single note (a note) can't really be accented on the piano.  You have control over the volume, but NOT the attack.  You can't sneak into a note and crescendo, or the reverse.  This is in contrast to wind instruments and string instruments which can. 

That's not true. Bang a single key with a pedal down and you will hear the thud of the key hitting the keybed amplified in the pedal. Minimise that thud and the tone will be different. For a single note, the pedal is a major factor. Why those idiot "scientists" who supposedly disproved tone always omit it is quite beyond me. It's a ridiculous oversight- as the presence of pedal is what makes the different qualities most audible.

[werq34ac]

I used to think this, but the subito is actually pretty dubious- certainly in the pathetique chords. Fp was an old style of writing to from for back to piano. Some people assume the pathetique requires some remarkable effect- but the marking just means to be quieter on the following note. It doesn't have to imply any subito.

Oops, my mistake. The piano is immediately after the forte, but not necessarily all of a sudden (subito) right?