on the topic of page turning

[49410enrique]

so this is a genuine question i hope both folks who have done it or more 'advanced' pianists with both experience and preferrences can contribute.

i am turning pages for big concert soon, two major small ensemble works, a  suite for piano and two other instruments and the a big (about 40 minutes/75 pages or so ) piano chamber work in 4 mvnts.

i'm doing some score study and listening to make sure i don't lose anyone during the perforamance i'm quite nervous about making sure i hit all the right page turns and the right time and don't mess anyone up (at least the pianist is very perpared and probably has many of the page turns memorized since they were turning for themselves the entire time until the last rehearsal this week which i turned for as we ran both works all the way through).

their preference, we discussed, is to turn basically on or just after the down beat of the last measure of the page, so it's turned  and ready to go before the downbeat of the first measure of the next page).

my question is more about immediately before, i don't want to distract but want to make sure i'm ready in time, how soon is it preferred I should stand and get ready to turn the page? would a measure or two before the last measure be about right? i want to make sure i'm not too early and thus just standing there and be a visual distraction, but i don't want to feel like i'm stading too fast at the last minute and thus increasing the chances of missing the turn que, especially in the fast movements where the measures go by at a pretty good clip?

thanks , i'll definately touch bases with the pianist again but would love some insight on best practices and standard ways of doing this if there are any as i haven't done a lot of official page turner work, especially for a larger and advanced serious stage works (this is for a 'city orchestra' so it's a pretty big concert around here, the musicians are quiet accomplished and there should be a pretty decent crowd so i want to do my best to help them all have an amazing perforamnce).

[iansinclair]

I was an organist, not a pianist, until I retired -- and as yu probably know organists, for some reason, almost always work from music without memorizing.  I don't know why... so I've worked with a lot of page turners!

Keep in  mind your objectives: first, get the page turned at the right time, and I agree that my preference was always at the beginning of the measure before the turn, unless the music was very fast in which case maybe a wee bit sooner.  Second, stay invisible while you turrn the page!  I would suggest that standing quietly, a couple of measures before the turn (depends on how fast the piece is) and reaching over an making the turn is best.  Try to make it so the whole thing is one smooth, relatively slow but continuous movement from seated to seated.  If in doubt, though, stand and get your hand on the page sooner than you think you need to rather than later!  First place, having the turner not there when you think you need him or her is likely to make the player nervous; second place, if you have to hurry the risk of pulling the music off the stand completely increases, and that is something you do not want to do...

[lostinidlewonder]

It can also help to ask them to give an indication when you should turn, eg: a nod of the head. Then they control you not you them.

[49410enrique]

@ iansinclair  thanks makes total sense, yeah i want to make sure my presence is noticed as little as possible so the thought of almost having the entire gesture from sitting to standing to reaching to turning and back to sitting all be one fluid movement makes sense, the henle score also doesn't like to stay open so i will also in most places be needing to hold the page on my side against the music desk so it doesn't close up on the pianist but you're right, i'll stay out of the way and distract as little as possible.

@ lostinidlewonder
great suggestion and will work form some but the fast sections of the quintet (especially since it is so long) with so much going on makes gesture based inappropriate and possibly could lead to ensemble issues with cues and timing chances to mess up increasing. still thanks for offering!

[quantum]

Personally I like to stand at the beginning of the last system.  If there is a stuck page or a stumble in the performance it gives you wiggle room to locate where the performers are in the music.  I like to grab the page ready to turn a few measures in advance.

It is a good idea to make sure your chair is not squeaky.

If the music goes by at a quick pace it is probably better to stay standing.  Unless you want to feel like you are doing a workout at the gym.  

Never block the keys of the piano, even if the music does not call for playing at the extremes of the keyboard.  Stand to the side and turn from there.  If the music is too far to reach, pull it towards you rather than blocking the pianist from reaching the keys.  I had a pianist turn pages for me once, and this person stood right in front of the keys right when I needed some bass notes.  The person didn't even move when I awkwardly tried to reach past them for the bass register.  

Always consult the performers regarding repeats, D.C., or performer specific cuts.  Anything that diverges from the written score, you need to know about.  

Most performers do give a nod when they want you to turn.  Be ready for that nod to come early.  The performer may want the page turned before they even reach the end of the system.  

Practice getting lost or distracted in the score, then try to find your place again.  

Music that is very uniform in notation is more difficult to follow.  Eg: Chopin Op 25/1.  If you get a piece such as this with a constantly repeating pattern, find something to latch on to that is very prominent like a bass or melody line.  

Make sure to unstick pages and prepare the music in a manner that allows you to turn well.  

Here is a story for you:  I once had to turn for a concert pianist that asked for a page turner 30 mins before performance.  The ensemble had done a dress rehearsal earlier and not a word was said about the need for a page turner.  Not only that, he used dog-eared photocopies that were unbound.  He complained that I turned too fast!  Nonetheless, he didn't make that good an impression with the backstage hands, that said he preferred to go sight seeing rather then attend to the needs of this concert.  They told me he really isn't in a position to be nit picking considering he had ample time to organize to have a page turner, yet neglected to do so.  Learned my lesson, I now refuse to turn unless the music is in an acceptable state of repair and organization.  

[quantum]

Page turner stands well ahead of time.  She also makes sure that the turned page stays flat.

Turning unbound pages.  Notice how she gets well out of the way of the performer.  I also like the fluidity at which the pages move along.  Easy to follow.

 

[49410enrique]

@ quantum- gottcha makes total sense, I believe I'll take a middle of the road approach and stand early i.e. bottom system on the fast mvmtns  (the scherzo and presto sections of the finale are super quick), so that will work to everyone's advantage, the slow movement I believe because the pace is soooooo releaxed the meausre before still give me ample time to prepeare the turn, not too woried those slow ones. but this should help since ensemble is quite tricky on in these works at times so they don't need my bungling things up makes it harder than it already is.

i like the idea of standing the entire time for shorter works but the suite somes in at 11 minutes front to back but the quintet is a 40-42ish minute monster so standing and stitting will make more sense, yes its a bit of a leg workout but i don't mind and am up the tast

i like your idea of practicing finding where they are in the score, very important, i believe and probably wish more page turners would take this seriously like i do, we are in  a way part of the performance and thus a certain amount of musical pre-requisite skill/knowledge and intuition and imporantly preparation/practice is and should be expected of us for something like this. i am glad we covered it, hopefully it will help othes in the future.

by all mean let's keep the conversation going if/as needed.!!

[cjp_piano]

Quantum's advice is good. I usually stand 3-5 seconds before the page turn, so as far as how much music that is depends on the tempo of the piece. As long as you look like you know what you're doing, you won't be a distraction. People will just fade you into the background because there's nothing to pay attention to =)

[omar_roy]

I turn pages rather frequently, and I agree, it can be a nerve-wracking experience!  I find it scarier than performing even!  I have a few principles that I adhere to when page turning.

1) Stand earlier rather than later.
2) If you are fortunate enough to see the music beforehand, make note of key points in the pages that you can wait for in case you accidentally space out!  It's happened to me before, and this has saved my butt!
3) Roll the corner of the page over so that the first measure is exposed to the pianist.  If they don't nod, then at least you have that safety net if you turn a little late.

Most importantly, you'll always have a minute or two before walking on stage to ask the pianist a few questions.  Always ask for their preferences.  Some like you to turn very early, sometimes 2 measures.  Some prefer half a bar.  Ask them how they will signal you.  Downward nod?  Upward nod?  I turned for a pianist who did an upward nod instead of a downward nod, and I didn't realize that until 2 page turns into the performance!

Remember, better safe than sorry.