What do you guys do to strengthen (I really mean relax) your fingers?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

There are muscles of posture in the neck, none in the arms/hands/fingers so it's not an analogy with any relevance.

Are you sure that you're saying that there's no muscles in the arms/hands/fingers?

[ajspiano]

Are you sure that you're saying that there's no muscles in the arms/hands/fingers?

Whether or not its is a fair point..

I think he's arguing that the muscles in the neck are designed to hold the head up straight and balanced, but that the muscles for the arm/hand/fingers have a different purpose..

......I found the more concerning point to be the implication that movement can not be altered to improve the technique. Which is kind of like saying that all known pedagogues have it 100% wrong..  I sincerely doubt that's what he meant though, unless he is just being an insufferable troll..

You can't really discuss this stuff with accuracy 'in a vacuum' like this - there needs to be a working example because the sheer number of variations on movement mean we will forever disagree on what works best without an exact known purpose for the movement..  even then K and N are known to go at each other like bulls at a gate, and with good reason I suppose given their very obvious and total disagreement..  I'm more on N's side but I'm not going to waste my time arguing with a mule...  even if K turns out to be right I have no interest in the discussion because he so strongly believes he is unequivocally correct and seems unwilling to learn (a state of mind that I think is utterly abhorrent for a teacher) - and because I have no reason to believe that he can perform to a high standard himself..

[j_menz]

even then K and N are known to go at each other like bulls at a gate

Strikes me as being more like some bizarre Klingon mating ritual.

[keyboardclass]

......I found the more concerning point to be the implication that movement can not be altered to improve the technique. Which is kind of like saying that all known pedagogues have it 100% wrong..  I sincerely doubt that's what he meant though, unless he is just being an insufferable troll..

What is a movement?  It's a coordination of muscle contractions sometimes against resistance sometimes not.  What coordination you use isn't that important - you find all sorts out there - what is important is how much effort you use to bring that 'movement' about?  but more importantly - are you making the mistake of 'bringing-it-about' before and after it is required?  As for my performance standard - it's disappointing that a performance diploma from the ABRSM cuts no ice with you.

[ajspiano]

As for my performance standard - it's disappointing that a performance diploma from the ABRSM cuts no ice with you.

TROLOLz

I havent seen your degree, or seen you perform so how should I know if its legit - this is the internet remember.

Obviously a performance degree means you can perform, my issue with them surrounds the fact that they are perceived to mean "capable teacher" which is not a realistic outcome of a performance degree.

.....

This is all a bit out of hand anyway now, I don't 100% agree with either you or N. Both arguments hold some weight, neither is absolute. Tension is in essence a muscular contraction, or movement, and it can be resolved by relaxing the given part. Tension can also occur as a result of a poor movement and it can be resolved by addressing the technique directly rather than an aimless instruction to relax which in many cases will not work because the underlying cause still exists.

This is why people develop speed walls, with a free comfortable motion at a slow tempo and a long struggle to relax at high speed.. A problem that can be fixed near immediately by addressing the motion used.

And in saying that, I strongly suspect that while I consider that solution to be a different motion, you likely name the exact same result as being the same motion minus the undue tension. And which ever it actually is seems fairly inconsequential so long as the student gets a successful result.


 

[nyiregyhazi]

TROLOLz

I havent seen your degree, or seen you perform so how should I know if its legit - this is the internet remember.

I believe he has a DipABRSM- which is not equivalent to degree standard and would certainly not guarantee a place on a music college undergraduate programme. It's a good achievement for a young pianist to achieve but hardly something to shout from the hills about for a person long into adulthood.

Regarding the relaxation issues, the specific methods that might be used are very much open to debate, but it's an absolute fact that allowing certain joints to go limp leaves others with no choice but to work hard. There are a few exercises I give to students to show how much stiffer you have to be when a finger sags. Rest a fully lengthened thumb lightly on a key and the whole arm and rest of the hand can be amazingly free. Allow the thumb to slump and you have to tighten many areas not to have the whole knuckles area fall into the keys. I don't claim that there is a single right approach- but there are some absolute issues governed by mechanics, at the root of things. Methods that overlook the effects of these issues render it impossible to relax without collapsing into the keys. Seeing as no pianist is willing to do so, the subconscious leaves no option of erasing the efforts that prevent this. But if you add alternative actions elsewhere, you can achieve the same effect with less effort. That is why only hoping to subtract cannot easily succeed. First something needs to take over specific role of what the tensions are being used to achieve.

[keyboardclass]

I believe he has a DipABRSM- which is not equivalent to degree standard and would certainly not guarantee a place on a music college undergraduate programme.

Actually I hold a B. Mus as well as a PGCE and Diploma but it means nothing on the internet - only how high you can supposedly piss! (supposedly being the operative word)

[pytheamateur]

I believe he has a DipABRSM- which is not equivalent to degree standard and would certainly not guarantee a place on a music college undergraduate programme. It's a good achievement for a young pianist to achieve but hardly something to shout from the hills about for a person long into adulthood.

Much as the topic of this thread interests me, I do not intend to read through all the posts here.  I will simply end up confused and being none the wiser.  I am happy to leave this question to my trusted piano teacher when I see him next week.

Nor do I intend to get involved in the never-ending arguments between these two gentlemen, which would require me to trawl through even more posts, possibly spanning months, if not years.  I only wish to add a comment or two on the paragraph quoted above.

I agree that a DipABRSM is not equivalent to degree standard.  What is interesting though is the assertion that it would not guarantee a place on a music college undergraduate program.  Theoretically, the DipABRSM is supposed to equate with the standard of a conservatoire student after one year of study.   It is however not uncommon for many young people to have achieved the DipABRSM or equivalent before being accepted into a conservatoire.  One can only imagine that after one year's study at a conservatoire, these talented musicians will have further improved their playing.  If this assumption is correct, then this makes a mockery of the theoretical standard of the DipABRSM, unless of course there are a bunch of mediocre students at conservatoiries that help to drive down the average standard of a first-year student.  

This does make one wonder what the average standard of a conservatoire student is, and how big the gap is between the brightest and the weakest students in a given intake.

[nyiregyhazi]

I agree that a DipABRSM is not equivalent to degree standard.  What is interesting though is the assertion that it would not guarantee a place on a music college undergraduate program.  Theoretically, the DipABRSM is supposed to equate with the standard of a conservatoire student after one year of study.   It is however not uncommon for many young people to have achieved the DipABRSM or equivalent before being accepted into a conservatoire.  One can only imagine that after one year's study at a conservatoire, these talented musicians will have further improved their playing.  If this assumption is correct, then this makes a mockery of the theoretical standard of the DipABRSM, unless of course there are a bunch of mediocre students at conservatoiries that help to drive down the average standard of a first-year student.  

This does make one wonder what the average standard of a conservatoire student is, and how big the gap is between the brightest and the weakest students in a given intake.

I know a guy who had an LRSM (a greatly higher standard) who didn't get a place in the Royal College of music. This was about 15 years ago and the standard is supposed to be way more competitive these days. LRSM standard is extremely common for entrants, I believe.

[ajspiano]

I believe he has a DipABRSM- which is not equivalent to degree standard and would certainly not guarantee a place on a music college undergraduate programme. It's a good achievement for a young pianist to achieve but hardly something to shout from the hills about for a person long into adulthood.

Yes I'm familiar with the requirements for that, and the LRSM/FRSM - as well as the AMEB based equivalents (the system I studied under).

but it's an absolute fact that allowing certain joints to go limp leaves others with no choice but to work hard... ..there are some absolute issues governed by mechanics...First something needs to take over specific role of what the tensions are being used to achieve.

Yes I agree with all of this - when I say 'relax' i'm not suggesting a completely limp part of the mechanism, just removing any excess and unnecessary pressure - and on occasion I see people that are tense without a physical cause, they spontaneously tense up as a result of concentrating too hard for example, in a similar way to someone who forgets to breath normally while playing, this can be fixed by just choosing to not tense up.

Also think that K is stubbornly ignoring the fact that in a some cases where he or a student successfully 'moved less' in order to reduce the tension some movement was also added elsewhere, however subtle. Because as you say, a part may be tense because it is taking the load that should be being taken by a part that is failing to move properly. In this instance, the tense part will not be able to relax when under the pressure of playing unless something else adapts to take on the load elsewhere.

^the notion that its impossible to achieve a more comfortable result with better movement is just stupid. What if (in a ridiculous extreme example) someone is playing with their palms face up, extending their fingers nail first into the keys - do we really want to consider that the only way to improve on the ridiculous problems that would create is to relax and move less..

Now I sincerely doubt anyone would ever attempt to play like that seriously, but where is the cross over point where the type of movement and overall coordination no longer becomes a consideration to the success of the playing..? - I really don't have a problem with his arguement that its valid to move less, but the complete dismissal of both yours and my thoughts on it is ludicrous. We are hardly making up stories here - its just physics.

[keyboardclass]

Maybe if I say it again in a different way - much more important is what's happening when there's no need to move.  Key depression takes a few 50ths of a second - do what you like then, but what's going on the rest of the time?

[nyiregyhazi]

^the notion that its impossible to achieve a more comfortable result with better movement is just stupid. What if (in a ridiculous extreme example) someone is playing with their palms face up, extending their fingers nail first into the keys - do we really want to consider that the only way to improve on the ridiculous problems that would create is to relax and move less..

Now I sincerely doubt anyone would ever attempt to play like that seriously, but where is the cross over point where the type of movement and overall coordination no longer becomes a consideration to the success of the playing..? - I really don't have a problem with his arguement that its valid to move less, but the complete dismissal of both yours and my thoughts on it is ludicrous. We are hardly making up stories here - its just physics.

Absolutely. Other than ortmann's coldly written (and regularly inaccurate) book, I don't think anywhere near enough mechanics has been brought into methods. This is exactly why i'm exploring these issues. Impact or lack of is caused by issues of mechanics and it also determines things like how much sound you achieve for a given level of effort. It really astounds me that these major issues are done without reference to the basic issues that govern them. There's an obsession with physiology these days- but the results you achieve by using your body are determined by the mechanics. While turning your hands over is obviously stupid, plenty of less obviously dumb ideas are being taught widely without anyone bothering to look at the mechanics that proves them to be implausible as explanations or inherently less than effective when taken literally. There's very little specific information about how to move a key with true efficiency.

Also, I agree that some efforts are wildly excessive for no obvious reason. These can be improved with generic relaxation stuff- but it always tends to leave incapability at the end still. It's less stiff but there's still no real ease to the results. Even in these cases, I'm convinced that there's most to be gained by spending at least as much time on the positive and useful actions they should be developing- rather than simply on what to strip away. There's a film of a Taubmann pianist on youtube who was cured of dystonia- but who moves very sluggishly and with lumpy results. She removed bad things but didn't learn to put the useful things in.

 www.youtube.com/watch?v=veYt8A_Xd8Y

[pytheamateur]

I know a guy who had an LRSM (a greatly higher standard) who didn't get a place in the Royal College of music. This was about 15 years ago and the standard is supposed to be way more competitive these days. LRSM standard is extremely common for entrants, I believe.

Yes, this has been my understanding too, although fellow forum member Scot13 got accepted into a conservatoire after playing for only 18 months or something, without having done any grades.

[ajspiano]

Maybe if I say it again in a different way - much more important is what's happening when there's no need to move.  Key depression takes a few 50ths of a second - do what you like then, but what's going on the rest of the time?

Your arguement continues to completely ignore the fact that while some parts of the mechanism may be required to do less - others may be required to do more.

_______________

I know you've read fink because I've seen you quote parts of his book

1. Go find a section on arm circles with an example from the repetoire.

2. Play it - fast - without the arm circle and feel how uncomfortable it is as other parts start to attempt to carry the additional load and tension builds up.

3. ADD the arm circle - observe the instantaneous relief -

4. Go back to playing without the arm circle, try and relieve the tension by relaxing more and moving less and come back in 10 years when you've given up.

- since you already know that it won't work, the only thing left is to realise that not all people intuitively perform such motions and they NEED to be shown how to move, not told to relax.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Your arguement continues to completely ignore the fact that while some parts of the mechanism may be required to do less - others may be required to do more.

_______________

I know you've read fink because I've seen you quote parts of his book

1. Go find a section on arm circles with an example from the repetoire.

2. Play it - fast - without the arm circle and feel how uncomfortable it is as other parts start to attempt to carry the additional load and tension builds up.

3. ADD the arm circle - observe the instantaneous relief -

4. Go back to playing without the arm circle, try and relieve the tension by relaxing more and moving less and come back in 10 years when you've given up.

- since you already know that it won't work, the only thing left is to realise that not all people intuitively perform such motions and they NEED to be shown how to move, not told to relax.

That's what my teacher told me to do and it worked!

EDIT

Former teacher

[ajspiano]

That's what my teacher told me to do and it worked!

What exactly are you saying worked - give us a working example of tension, and how you resolved it.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

What exactly are you saying worked - give us a working example of tension, and how you resolved it.

Okay I had some difficulty playing this passage that had a lot of 3rd, 4th, and 5th finger work.  So I played every note individually and made a circle.  I did that a couple times then played it at full speed and it was sooo much better.

But that also helped me with playing without sounding choppy ,you know what I mean?  Before I did the little exercise I couldn't play it smoothly.

[ajspiano]

Okay I had some difficulty playing this passage that had a lot of 3rd, 4th, and 5th finger work.  So I played every note individually and made a circle.  I did that a couple times then played it at full speed and it was sooo much better.

But that also helped me with playing without sounding choppy ,you know what I mean?  Before I did the little exercise I couldn't play it smoothly.

Yes exactly, the motion of the arm aids the fingers/hand in getting to the keys without over exerting. If you are failing to do that, relaxing your fingers isnt going to help you. It not possible to resolve that kind of tension without adding the appropriate motion in.

If anyone manages to "relax/move less" in order to fix a problem of that nature then they have blindly missed the fact that they also added a movement subconsciously and/or intuitively.

[keyboardclass]

1. Go find a section on arm circles with an example from the repetoire.

Could I have a page number?

[ajspiano]

Something in section 8 - Upper Arms and Shoulder Girdle, pages 76-95. Choose your poison.

However, chopin 25/1 may be a good choice, since you can also try and do it without a supinated hand position forcing huge uncomfortable stretches between the fingers.. - or any of the other similar examples.

[keyboardclass]

Here's an old one showing off my Fender Rhodes and Twin Reverb.  I was in my 'totally flat finger phase'.  I don't know what you're looking for.  Some day I'll do a better job and re-record.

p3kmw&index=30&feature=plcp
This piece is on pg 77.  I do very slow to show the technique I use:

3D

Here's another example from pg 89:

[ajspiano]

Firstly, please realise that I have no concern with you playing however you wish to play.

However, this isn't about your playing, it is to do with understanding motion and how it effects playing and how the instruction related to motion will effect your students playing.

• Explain why your motion is different and/or the same to fink's suggestions.
• Test your idea against fink's and explain why his or yours is the better idea.
• Consider that as a teacher you have an obligation to look after your students best interests by teaching only the best ideas you have at your disposal.

The etude has been in your repetoire since 2007 based on age of the video - As a teacher, with a performance diploma and a Bmus you should be able to play it technically as well as pollini/lisitsa/horowitz or any other noteable pianist by now. If you are unable to execute a piece that has been in your repertoire that long FLAWLESSLY then you have got a technical problem that you are obviously unaware of and have no idea how to fix.

If you think that I'm being disrespectful of 'genius' in saying that you should be able to play aswell as those names, fine. But as a teacher you should be doing EVERYTHING possible to ensure you know (and your students know) how to get to world class standard, and dismissing the teaching of good motion on the premise that if a certain coordination gets you through the notes its good enough, is a clear violation of that duty as a teacher.

If your technique was built from the very start on good principals of motion you would not be having the performance difficulties visible not only in the video of this chopin etude but in numerous other pieces I've seen scanning through your youtube channel.

Don't give your students (or forum members) such pointed technical advice as if to say that there is no possible way for you to be wrong unless you are infact ABSOLUTELY certain that you have the best possible correct idea (consider that your e minor prelude is fairly conflicted with fink's thoughts?!?!), if you turn out to be wrong, you will have been paid to damage your students progress (this is just totally immoral).

Even if your ideas about technique are based in a logic that makes sense to you, and you turn out to be successful in 10 years after much practice  -

- if you can't play at a world class level given your degree/diploma/teaching experience that should be enough to make you seriously concerned that an idea MIGHT be wrong, and you should in turn be horrified at the idea of passing wrong ideas on to students.

You should at least be portraying your ideas as "try this, see if it helps" not "this is exactly what you need to do, you'll see progress in a few years" - as you suggested to rach_forever regarding the process of learning to relax properly.

[keyboardclass]

The etude has been in your repetoire since 2007 based on age of the video - As a teacher, with a performance diploma and a Bmus you should be able to play it technically as well as pollini/lisitsa/horowitz or any other noteable pianist by now.

In which case there'd be a hell-of-a-lot of pollini/lisitsa/horowitz's out there.

(consider that your e minor prelude is fairly conflicted with fink's thoughts?!?!),

Is it?  I wouldn't know.  In what way?

Sorry, I don't do long posts.

edit: I think you're saying all piano teachers must, after 10 years, have a repertoire played 'technically as well as pollini/lisitsa/horowitz or any other noteable pianist'.  Or is that just a requirement of me?

[nyiregyhazi]

In which case there'd be a hell-of-a-lot of pollini/lisitsa/horowitz's out there. Is it?  I wouldn't know.  In what way?

Sorry, I don't do long posts.

That's because you are a troll- with no interest in learning or discussing. You are only interested in putting your limited understanding across as if it were gospel- and then inserting your fingers into your ears.

Not everyone is like you. Most people realise that the fact they do not play to the technical level of such artists means they still have things to improve on and must continue to learn- rather than live in denial of their faults. He is not saying that everyone will be up to that level. He is pointing out that those who are nowhere near should not be so pig-ignorant as to think they know the lone gospel truth- in a fantasy that can only be protected by a refusal to hear criticism.

[ajspiano]

In which case there'd be a hell-of-a-lot of pollini/lisitsa/horowitz's out there.

We're talking about 1 piece to a high standard - world class pianst's have hundreds of pieces under there belt.

There is no reason any able bodied person on this earth can't learn to play 1 piece well after 5 years of having had the notes learnt, especially in your case given your supposed background.

Is it?  I wouldn't know.  In what way?

If you were not going to read the book and fink's thoughts on the examples why did you ask for a page number? It's not my job to interpret the book for you, that just means your reading my words instead of seymour's. Waste of time.

..............

If you are a pure troll this in an impressive ongoing and somewhat humorous effort. If you're an actual piano teacher I feel terribly sorry for your students to have a teacher so unconcerned with such a major factor in successful performance in general, and that is so unconcerned with the quality of information he presents.

[keyboardclass]

We're talking about 1 piece to a high standard - world class pianst's have hundreds of pieces under there belt.

No, you're talking about a pissing contest.

If you were not going to read the book and fink's thoughts on the examples why did you ask for a page number?

You asked me to produce some playing examples!  Now if you'd like to say how they differ from Fink's I'll happily respond.

[nyiregyhazi]

No, you're talking about a pissing contest.

It's fascinating that you are so deeply insecure (despite the exterior under which you deny all criticisms of your playing). The contest is between you and the piano. Nobody suggested a duel. Note that the poster you are responding to is a person of humility and dignity who does not claim to know everything. He just has sincere interest in the topic of piano technique and realises that it starts with yourself. Deep down you know that the results you achieve are unsatisfactory- or you would not have posted that paranoid response. Have the balls to face up to the fact that your playing is the product of a failing to approach and start moving on- rather than trolling forums with your delusions of unusual expertise.

A person who has no interest in improving on themself is in no position to claim to have all the answers.

[ajspiano]

You asked me to produce some playing examples! 

Actually I didn't, I said play the same passage in physically different ways, observe the difference for you're own benifit, there was no intention for you to fire back without making a genuine effort to observe your own playing, read the book and learn something - whether that turned out to be that you were right already or that fink has some ideas that you could use. I, nor anyone else here needed to see you play in order for that to happen, especially not your playing from 5 years ago which is obviously near irrelevant to learning something now as your playing must have improved in that time period.

I'm out. - this is beyond ridiculous, and I need sleep.

[keyboardclass]

It's fascinating that you are so deeply insecure

Again, you made that up.  People who won't go in for pissing contests are insecure!?  No, they find them rude!  If ajs or rachmaninoff_fore or anyone for that matter wants me 'to play it technically as well as pollini/lisitsa/horowitz' before he respects my opinion it's up to them.  Jeez, do I care?  Being called a liar, that's another thing.

[keyboardclass]

Actually I didn't, I said play the same passage in physically different ways, observe the difference for you're own benifit,

Did you?  I must have missed that.  I attended a workshop with Fink years ago (but then maybe I'm lying?) - I don't feel I need go back over that. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Again, you made that up.  People who won't go in for pissing contests are insecure!?  No, they find them rude!  If ajs wants me 'to play it technically as well as pollini/lisitsa/horowitz' before he respects my opinion it's up to him.  

A classic example of the type of paraphrase you are renowned for- one that does not accurately reflect anything said by the party you are purporting to speak for. There's no pissing contest. It's about the fact that those who have not achieved mastery need to retain an interested in learning. It's called self-awareness and humility. A person who does not play to that level but believes to have it all sussed is an ignorant fool. A person who is humble enough to realise they have something more to learn is a normal pianist.

[keyboardclass]

It's about the fact that those who have not achieved mastery need to retain an interested in learning. It's called self-awareness and humility.

The assumption being if I dismiss your bilge I have no 'interested in learning'?  Pompous or what?

[nyiregyhazi]

The assumption being if I dismiss your bilge I have no 'interested in learning'?  Pompous or what?

No. I refer to your manner with one and all who have tried to help you you. Eg sorry I don't do long posts in response to AJS. It was an entirely civil post that was addressed to you personally. That you have neither the curiosity, interest in self development nor basic courtesy to read it says everything. In short you are a troll- with scant interest in anything but portraying your fantasy of expertise. You have no corresponding interest in acquiring any.

[keyboardclass]

No. Your manner with one and all who have tried to help you you. Eg sorry I don't do long posts in response to AJS. It was an entirely civil post that was addressed to you personally. That you have neither the curiosity, interest in self development nor basic courtesy to read it says everything. In short you are a troll.

I READ IT!  How dare you!  It's your posts I don't read!

[ajspiano]

If ajs or rachmaninoff_fore or anyone for that matter wants me 'to play it technically as well as pollini/lisitsa/horowitz' before he respects my opinion it's up to them.

Thats really not what I suggested at all - there's no way in the world I'd expect you to perform at that standard if the piece was new to your repetoire..

The performance in the video for the 25/1 is around 66bpm, which is fine if thats how you like it, but you also seem like you're struggling in a few places. The piece is marked 104 in my score, and since its been in your repetoire for 5 years, I would expect that whether or not you choose to, you are at least capable of playing it full tempo at a near flawless standard by now (considering you are a professional pianist).

Really I'd be satisifed with full tempo and fluent, regardless of the interpretive quality (which is the real difference between a horowitz and 'random technically proficient pianist x')..  You can choose to play it slower if you like, but respect for your opinion on technique demands the ability to play it full speed after 5 years.

[keyboardclass]

Sorry, I don't do things to order - in fact it's the best way to get me to not do something.  You don't need to trust my judgment - I mostly post quotes of the real great and good.  Like I have to keep saying - play the ball not the man.

[nyiregyhazi]

Sorry, I don't do things to order - in fact it's the best way to get me to not do something.  You don't need to trust my judgment - I mostly post quotes of the real great and good.  Like I have to keep saying - play the ball not the man.

If you want to speak in sayings, start with the proof is in the pudding. He's not playing the man. He's playing the efficacy of what you preach. 

There are links to my own playing on Andrewthayer.co.uk still plenty of improvements to be made, but you can see how much i've improved if you look at my oldest YouTube videos. I used to have the same ethos as k-hence the alternation between dysfunctional levels of tension and dysfunctional levels of release- as opposed to simple balance.

[keyboardclass]

I used to have the same ethos as k

In your dreams.  Yet another straw man!

[nyiregyhazi]

In your dreams.  Yet another straw man!

Please recheck the definition. Use the term if you must, but please at least wait for an accurate context in which to do so. A strawman is concocted position to argue against that falsely purports to represent the argument of an opponent. Stating that I used to share your belief system is not an example of that.

[keyboardclass]

Please recheck the definition.

I think you'll find saying we shared an ethos (untrue) then knocking that ethos is a perfect example of  a straw man argument, though I could have just called you a liar.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think you'll find saying we shared an ethos (untrue) then knocking that ethos is a perfect example of  a straw man argument, though I could have just called you a liar.

You are mistaken. For it to a be a strawman argument, I'd have had to explicitly state views you do not share and falsely portrayed them to you. To be specific, I used to believe that you should make a concscious effort to relax between key depressions (but have since learned that this simply forgives tensions that should not arise in depression) . Considering that you have explicitly stated over and over that you indeed believe what I used to, there is no strawman.

If you want to use the word, learn what it means.

[keyboardclass]

To be specific, I used to believe that you should make a concscious effort to relax between key depressions (but have since learned that this simply forgives tensions that should not arise in depression) .

But there's your problem! I believe in an unconscious effort - something you, Mr Straw Man,  know nothing about and therefore cannot possibly share with me.

Just because you have horrendous extreme tension in your knuckles don't go crying to Matthay and co.!

[keyboardclass]

...and here's a good one - I had a Catholic ethos just like Mother Teresa but I kept committing sin!  What a rubbish religion!  She must be one hell of an a-hole!

[nyiregyhazi]

But there's your problem! I believe in an unconscious effort - something you, Mr Straw Man,  know nothing about and therefore cannot possibly share with me.

Just because you have horrendous extreme tension in your knuckles don't go crying to Matthay and co.!

I didn't say I share your belief in an undefined pseudo-intellectual bullshit. I said I share your ethos- specifically that of relaxation. A correctly labelled strawman argument is exemplified by the second half of your post.

[keyboardclass]

Or how about the bad workman excuse? - I couldn't learn the Matthay way of playing so there's obviously something wrong with it!  i.e. assumption of a causal connection between a late ethos and poor playing.

[nyiregyhazi]

Or how about the bad workman excuse? - I couldn't learn the Matthay way of playing so there's obviously something wrong with it!  i.e. assumption of a causal connection between a late ethos and poor playing.

Seeing as I am much more relaxed in my playing since aiming for better balance (rather than having relaxation as a goal in itself) its abundantly clear that the ethos was at fault-due to focusing on the goal rather than the means. It's like a football team who are so focused on the goal that they just hoof the ball as far upfield as possible whenever they get a chance. The relaxation approach failed me squarely on the very premise it claims to promote-at which point I also reference your Grieg video.

[keyboardclass]

The relaxation approach failed me

No, you failed it.  Either that or Mother Theresa is an a-hole!

[nyiregyhazi]

No, you failed it.  Either that or Mother Theresa is an a-hole!

I also failed the playing with your feet approach and the playing with your hands tied behind your back approach. Shame on me for blaming the ineptitude of the approach rather than myself.

[keyboardclass]

I also failed the playing with your feet approach and the playing with your hands tied behind your back approach. Shame on me for blaming the ineptitude of the approach rather than myself.

Maybe, but playing with feet/hands tied behind was never part of my ethos and it's my ethos you failed at.  Whereas I was successful.

[ajspiano]

Whereas I was successful

As a professional you are not successful until you can produce a recording/performance worth standing among the greats. And until that point you always have more to learn. I'm not ordering a copy of your performance and I wasn't before - it's a case of why you have such high regard for your less than world class level playing and in turn the knowledge you used to get yourself to your current level.

Suggesting that N. is wrong essentially demands that you are a better pianist than him and that you provide a reasonable accurate and understandable argument why (and you don't) - but that can go further - You also suggested Alan Fraser is wrong on many levels, so are you a more experienced better pianist than him too? Who in the world are you not above? How about the top taubmanites, you know better than edna golandsky? You asserted fink is not worth revisiting despite clear differences in your ideas to his, so clearly you believe your knowledge is worth more than his..?

All of these noted pedagogues promote the teaching of good movement and balance, they also generally recommend all the books you are quoting as further reading and are presenting their ideas a further new information not as being directly contrary (in most cases), either pay attention to their advice or write your own book to disprove their ridiculous pseudo science. - OR just tout yourself as being well above them, AND the need to prove your points.