Frustration with Hands Together

[timothy42b]

As an older adult beginner, I am finding it very frustrating to play anything with both hands.

I can play with either hand probably 4 or 5 times faster than both together, and even at that speed end up tangled and fumbling.  More work hand separate does not seem to help at all; the hands together doesn't progress with the HS.  

Even something simple like a scale is like this.  There seems to be a mental process, beyond the technique of moving the fingers, that gets in the way.  

Is there a way to attack this, does it just go away with time, or is it maybe a learning defect?  

[shas]

I know the fealing and get it all the time. Sometimes it is just down to more hands seperat work.
the best I can do is just really breah it down and do one litle mouvment over and over again. somtimes just beetwean 2 notes.
Watch when you do it together to see which hand stumbles at which point and then take that mouvment in the one hand alone and repeat it. then repeat it with the other hand with it.
You will break it and be able to put them together eventually but it is tedious work.
the more often you do this the sooner you'll find peice coming together quicker.
PS sorry about the spelling. I'm in a rush and am trying to type to fast.

[Seaside_Lee]

Hi Tim

Working with both hands together can be very frustrating can't it!

Your brain has to develop the neural pathways for this to happen and it doesn't happen overnight. However, the good news is that the more you attempt to do it the more your brain will be working on developing these pathways.

My advice to you is to try to do it slowly at first building up the tempo of what you are trying to achieve and if it starts to drive you crazy then leave it alone until the next day.

If you keep working on it (keeping it fun) then one day it will be really easy...strange I know but, that is how your brain works...I find it interesting.


regrads


Lee

[donjuan]

You have been given some great advice.  keep in mind, if piano were so easy, everyone would do it very well!
Keep at it!!  Studying piano is the best way to get to know yourself.

donjuan

[bernhard]

You are experiencing co-ordination problems (as opposes to technical problems which are best tackled with separate hands – I guess it could be argued that co-ordination problems are also technical problems but I tend not to be interested in terminology arguments).

In any case, you must avoid the approach of  “joining notes”, that is, the E on the LH goes together with the C on the RH, and so on.

You want to develop “hand independence”, so one hand goes about its business without being interfered by the other. It is a knack and easily acquired. How?

Have a look on this thread:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1084900625

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[Spatula]

When I first started to learn the Fantasie Imp by Chopin, putting HT was a total disaster, I couldn't even make it past the 5 or 6th bars.  It was pretty much a timing issue where I was not experienced in compound time or mixed time for each hand.

For that piece, I set my metronome to 40 and let each tick represent one sixthteenth note, while trying to coordinate the LH to fit how it should naturally, not forcing it to alternate, but I went HS for a while to get the feel of the timing and it worked!  

After that I let the metronome progress to about 60 then now instead of the metronome counting sixteens, it counts quarter notes!  

What progress! (which took me 2 solid months).

[timothy42b]

Thanks all.

The dropping notes sounds promising.  That's near what I've been trying but a little more structured.  I like it.  

As a 51 year old beginner, I have three frustrations:  hands together coordination, moving hand position and finding the new spot, and starting from scratch every day because everything I worked on yesterday is gone.  But hands together coordination is the worst currently.  

[Lightnin]

The dropping notes sounds promising.  That's near what I've been trying but a little more structured.  I like it.  
 

Tim, for beginners, for two hands, it is also important to realize that a huge part of the idea is about going very slow, really really slow at first,  slow enough you can practice it correctly numerous times. The idea is to practice that correct action.  It is counter-productive to practice incorrect actions.  

Practice makes permanent, not perfect.    So dont practice mistakes, it becomes a hard habit to break.   We have to go slow enough our brain can keep up and do it right.  Our brain gets very much faster at this too.    Go very slow so you can do it correctly, as slow as you can stand it, slow enough you can actually play those notes correctly.  It cannot be too slow at first.  Practice that correct hand action over and over, one measure,  slow and correct, so that it becomes natural and automatic to your hands.  

I'm a 65 year old beginner, nearly one year now, and two hands was impossible for me too, because I was really hardheaded about this.  But after I finally learned slow was the magic key, it is going well now.   Go very slow.  Slow really is faster.  No shame in slow, speed will follow in its own time, after we have learned to do it.   We must learn first.

One measure at a time, learn the notes and keys with separate hands, what they are, where they are, how to finger them sequentially, how to move the hands if necessary.  When learned, then try both hands (one measure).  

There is a speed you can play both hands today, even it is one note per minute.  So do that, go that slow, learn that one measure, practice until it gets better, but practice it correctly, repeatedly, slowly.  On one measure, a couple of minutes probably make a big difference, and this gets better as you learn, but speed is totally unimportant now, speed is bad, slow is good.  First thing is for the hands to learn to play those notes correctly, repeatedly, habitually, automatically.  Think of it as training your fingers to do it by repeated correct example.   Speed comes after they can do this, and not before.  

Stay on one measure until you can play it very slowly, correctly, repeatedly, dozens of times (that one measure).
Make it be automatic and natural for your fingers.  Then try the next measure, etc.  Dont always start at the beginning, start at the current one measure most of the time to maximize time efficiency.  Then practice the song phrases slowly, repeatedly, correctly, with a slow metronome.   Then eventually the whole song slowly, repeatedly, correctly.  It gets easier and easier, if you stay slow long after you dont sense the need any more, this is how you perfect it.  

Dont judge results today.  You will realize your progress today, but still, let it rest overnight, our brain has to sort it out.  Judge it tomorrow, no doubt a very good surprise. If that isnt generally true, you didnt learn it today.  We are speaking of only one measure if necessary on first day.  It will all come.

[nick]

Tim, for beginners, for two hands, it is also important to realize that a huge part of the idea is about going very slow, really really slow at first,  slow enough you can practice it correctly numerous times. The idea is to practice that correct action.  It is counter-productive to practice incorrect actions.  

Practice makes permanent, not perfect.    So dont practice mistakes, it becomes a hard habit to break.   We have to go slow enough our brain can keep up and do it right.  Our brain gets very much faster at this too.    Go very slow so you can do it correctly, as slow as you can stand it, slow enough you can actually play those notes correctly.  It cannot be too slow at first.  Practice that correct hand action over and over, one measure,  slow and correct, so that it becomes natural and automatic to your hands.  

I'm a 65 year old beginner, nearly one year now, and two hands was impossible for me too, because I was really hardheaded about this.  But after I finally learned slow was the magic key, it is going well now.   Go very slow.  Slow really is faster.  No shame in slow, speed will follow in its own time, after we have learned to do it.   We must learn first.

One measure at a time, learn the notes and keys with separate hands, what they are, where they are, how to finger them sequentially, how to move the hands if necessary.  When learned, then try both hands (one measure).  

There is a speed you can play both hands today, even it is one note per minute.  So do that, go that slow, learn that one measure, practice until it gets better, but practice it correctly, repeatedly, slowly.  On one measure, a couple of minutes probably make a big difference, and this gets better as you learn, but speed is totally unimportant now, speed is bad, slow is good.  First thing is for the hands to learn to play those notes correctly, repeatedly, habitually, automatically.  Think of it as training your fingers to do it by repeated correct example.   Speed comes after they can do this, and not before.  

Stay on one measure until you can play it very slowly, correctly, repeatedly, dozens of times (that one measure).
Make it be automatic and natural for your fingers.  Then try the next measure, etc.  Dont always start at the beginning, start at the current one measure most of the time to maximize time efficiency.  Then practice the song phrases slowly, repeatedly, correctly, with a slow metronome.   Then eventually the whole song slowly, repeatedly, correctly.  It gets easier and easier, if you stay slow long after you dont sense the need any more, this is how you perfect it.  

Dont judge results today.  You will realize your progress today, but still, let it rest overnight, our brain has to sort it out.  Judge it tomorrow, no doubt a very good surprise. If that isnt generally true, you didnt learn it today.  We are speaking of only one measure if necessary on first day.  It will all come. [\quote]






I would add once this is achieved to GRADUALLY speed up, staying at one speed for lots of repeats to build ones technique for that speed.

Nick