Composition

[austinarg]

The gigue has counterpoint, right? This is going to be fun 

[ajspiano]

The gigue has counterpoint, right? This is going to be fun 

Technically some of us are already using counterpoint - varying complexities..

This is just the wikipedia definition - there's some cool info about learning it there too..

In music, counterpoint is the relationship between two or more voices that are harmonically interdependent (polyphony), but independent in contour and rhythm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint - read the species counterpoint section for some initial steps in learning it, and of course if you're really keen get a proper composition text, as some people are discussing.

............................

I'm also going to post this one - I'm straying away from getting to involved with trying to explain this stuff as I don't like inflicting too many rules on people - but IF you are interested in stuff like melody writing theory, which means things like "this interval must follow this interval", or (and this one is fairly amusing I think, at least the language they are using I mean) "Two consecutive moves in the same direction which form a compound interval are forbidden"..  really? its forbidden? it makes me think someone believes we should be going to hell for using that series of notes..  still, its some basic guidlines that can help you construct melodies that are kind to the ear generally until you get better and just using your ears.

https://www.tpub.com/harmony/2.htm

You may also google something like "melody writing rules" and come up with a whole bunch of stuff.

EDIT:
I'm not going to push onto the gigue until everyone thats already started the minuet is ready by the way, though if anyone wants to look into it and talk about it thats of course fine by me

Zoe - the gigue is another baroque dance, but this one originates in britain, perhaps even more specifically ireland I think, where it was called the 'jig' - its more lively and fun sounding than the minuet. It became the gigue (france) or giga (italy) - and is usually found as the last movement in baroque suites, though bach's suite versions are likely a little more complex than we need to be at first.

[keyofc]

jmenz,

It is very interesting - looks like jazz to me -
jazzy minuet - cool.

[ajspiano]

I really had fun with this exercise. This has really stretched my brain but in a fun and good way!

I'll be interested to see how you feel looking an some of the mozart and bach examples as a piece to learn now, and in the future once you've had a bit more time to digest and learn this kind of thing.

As you learn more the "masters" compositions should begin to "make sense" to you instead of just being an incomprehensible collection of notes. Or in other words, learning theory, and actually applying it to writing music should make it a lot easier to play/read music in general..

[j_menz]

jmenz,

It is very interesting - looks like jazz to me -
jazzy minuet - cool.

Thanks keyofc, glad you like. My first ever attempt.

As you learn more the "masters" compositions should begin to "make sense" to you instead of just being an incomprehensible collection of notes. Or in other words, learning theory, and actually applying it to writing music should make it a lot easier to play/read music in general..

Methinks I'm doing it the other way round.  Taking the sense that the music already makes and applying it to theory, which has always seemed to me an incomprehensible collection of factoids.

[ajspiano]

Me thinks I'm doing it the other way round.  Taking the sense that the music already makes and applying it to theory, which has always seemed to me an incomprehensible collection of factoids.

Indeed - I thought that may have been you're perspective. Given that other discussion we had in the memory (?) thread I was stoked to see you here. You obviously have a reasonable comprehension of theory, or an intuitive sense of it.

For some, as slane stated in that thread, music seems to make very little sense..  and perhaps some methods of teaching theory (the way I was taught was certainly an example) could be aptly described as "an incomprehensible collection of factoids".  Its the application of the theoretical concepts (as guidelines only) in conjunction with creating actual music that I think makes the difference in ones overall comprehension. At least that's how I see it at the moment.

Given this was your first attempt and also you're previous disinterest in composition/improv how do you think the exercise has effected your comprehension of both playing and theory? ..no effect would be an acceptable answer, I wonder if for you that the effect may occur if you chose to take the time out to put together a much more significant work.

EDIT: I'm also kind of curious as to what grabbed you're interest, you previously seemed so uninterested in any kind of composition, as if you only gained satisfaction and interest out of interpretation and exploration of the great works.

[j_menz]

Indeed - I thought that may have been you're perspective. Given that other discussion we had in the memory (?) thread I was stoked to see you here. You obviously have a reasonable comprehension of theory, or an intuitive sense of it.

Pretty much entirely intuitive. I did learn some, but have forgotten it almost entirely in any formal sense. I must have some deep down somewhere, though, or I couldn't do what I do.

Given this was your first attempt and also you're previous disinterest in composition/improv how do you think the exercise has effected your comprehension of both playing and theory? ..no effect would be an acceptable answer, I wonder if for you that the effect may occur if you chose to take the time out to put together a much more significant work.

Playing: no effect (or at least not yet, maybe that will come.  Theory: work in progress.  It has made me think there might be something in this theory thingie after all. 

I look forward to having a go at the gigue.  May try something more conventional this time (or maybe not).  Not quite sure I'm ready for my first symphony yet, though.

[ajspiano]

Playing: no effect (or at least not yet, maybe that will come.  Theory: work in progress.  It has made me think there might be something in this theory thingie after all. 

I look forward to having a go at the gigue.  May try something more conventional this time (or maybe not).  Not quite sure I'm ready for my first symphony yet, though.

I imagine any significant differences in playing would be improvisation related - certainly nothing to do with technique at this point, unless playing your piece pushed any technical boundries, but that doesn't seem likely in your case..

I was really glad you did something atonal - whether or not it fits into everyones personal tastes you really pushed the boundries of the thread. There's no way I'd have got into explaining theory for a dischordant hexascale for a very long time, but an example, even without any explanation provides inspiration for people to experiment with more interesting sounds than a standard diatonic scale if they want to.

For some, no doubt, just the realization that there are scales that don't contain 7 notes like major scales, rather we can write in tonal centres based around things such as the whole tone scale (6 notes) or diminished scale (8 notes) - or any number of pentascales (5 notes)..

since I havent actually studied yours too closely, what exactly are the notes (or structure) for a promethean scale? wiki says C D E F# A Bb - thats the same as you've used yeh?  similar to whole tone.. would be interesting to change the A, and put the chromatic alteration from the whole tone in different places maybe?

[j_menz]

since I havent actually studied yours too closely, what exactly are the notes (or structure) for a promethean scale? wiki says C D E F# A Bb - thats the same as you've used yeh?  similar to whole tone.. would be interesting to change the A, and put the chromatic alteration from the whole tone in different places maybe?

They're the notes I used. I was surprised how much variation in colour could be obtained just by rearranging the chord intervals.  I wasn't sure how to achieve anything like a modulation.  My thought was that you would start on a note in the scale and then apply the intervals from that note. Is that what you would do with a blues scale, say?

I thought the hexascale ide was interesting.  May come up with my own, but think I'll actually go back to traditional scales for the gigue.  I have never taken to minuets for some reason (quite like the trios that ofetn go with them), so needed to try something a bit different in this case, but a contrapuntal gigue in common form theory should be enough interest (and challenge) at this point.

[ajspiano]

I wasn't sure how to achieve anything like a modulation.

Here's a "theory" - and I call it that since I haven't played much with these kind of scales, and when I do its not based in theory, but rather based entirely on an intuitive response to the sounds..

this scale, CDEF#ABb - can, as wiki says and as I noted, be percieved as an altered whole-tone scale. But what if it was thought of as a lydian-dominant mode, with the 5th degree omitted.

C D E F# G A Bb - 4th mode of G melodic minor.

So we're getting some really interesting colours by building chords with the G omitted, but we could argue that we're in G minor, so the dominant would be D. So perhaps you alter your hexascale, give it a C#. You'll end up with some kind of A7b9 kind of sound (though i guess that needs the G) - use that as the dominant to move to a D minor, but then also move to its 4th degree and build a promethean.

New scale after all the transitional mumbojumbo would be

G A B C# E F - G promethean?

Its kind of like moving up a half step between either of the whole-tone scales - or like moving up a 5th between two melodic minor keys, G and D minors..??

EDIT:
apologies to all those who's minds just imploded trying to digest that..

[j_menz]

So we're getting some really interesting colours by building chords with the G omitted, but we could argue that we're in G minor

I'm having trouble thinking of it as being in a key that isn't in it.

G A B C# E F - G promethean?

Its kind of like moving up a half step between either of the whole-tone scales - or like moving up a 5th between two melodic minor keys, G and D minors..??

I'll have to see what it sounds like. My idea was to move to a new scale starting on the F#, so F# G# A# C D# E  and try to do the same sort of thing from there on in. I really think it's a bit suck it and see what works (I would eventually get to your G promethean).  I found enough colour in the basic scale for this short piece, but if I were to apply it to something more meaty, I'd have to do something.  I'd have to play around with them and see what shifts worked and what effect they had.  Kind of like learning a new language. Not sure how Scriabin would feel about anything I came up with, but then he's in no condition to complain.

EDIT:  Just realised this would be circular, as next step like that would start on C again.  Have to rethink. 

apologies to all those who's minds just imploded trying to digest that..

Intact, just hurting.  

[ajspiano]

random sounding and constant transitions with a fixed pattern, in this case.. up tritone/down perfect 4th...  creates chromatic modulations over 2 chords, take to whichever key you want, and obviously dont have to do it as chords like this, broken chords and difference scale degrees would create some really crazy sounds?

[j_menz]

random sounding and constant transitions with a fixed pattern, in this case.. up tritone/down perfect 4th...  creates chromatic modulations over 2 chords, take to whichever key you want, and obviously dont have to do it as chords like this, broken chords and difference scale degrees would create some really crazy sounds?

Thanks AJ, will have to play around with those.  Shouldn't be too crazy (though I may be at the end).

[ajspiano]

will have to play around with those. 

So will I no doubt - movements using a tritone are probably always going to work fairly well, its more subtle than other possible jumps - since, atleast in my limited example there, the chord from the key a tritone above is using notes common to the C promethean scale..

though, given its close relationship to the wholetone scale there's probably a whole bunch of options that have similarities.

[j_menz]

EDIT: I'm also kind of curious as to what grabbed you're interest, you previously seemed so uninterested in any kind of composition, as if you only gained satisfaction and interest out of interpretation and exploration of the great works.

Missed that earlier.  I guess I figured it never hurts to look under the hood occassionally. Also, thought it might be kinda fun.

++ just realised what a bad analogy that was as it does not hold true for my relationship with cars  ++

Too good an opportunity to miss, maybe?

[candlelightpiano]

So AJ, when will you begin the next composition project (the gigue)?  I'm on injury time out as far as playing the piano is concerned due to tendonitis so I have plenty of time to compose!! 

[keyofc]

Here's my minuet - any comments are welcome. 
I am interested in the gigue too - and the way to write them.

[ajspiano]

Feel free to have a dig around IMSLP for gigues or gigas as reference!

I'm just waiting for anyone who had already started a minuet to finish, which I think is just m1469 and Zoe now. m1469 is probably ok on her own though..  apologies if I've missed anyone? dont think I've got a finished piece from fleetfingers yet either actually.

keyofc - doesnt look like you've attached your score?

[m1469]

aa!  I feel badly that I ditched this project, I even started my B section last week ... and I listened to my A section recording just last night and instinctively heard the B section afterwards, so I know the B section is going the right direction ... but this is definitely a back burner project, as much as I'd like to do it.

*contemplates writing a little bit*

[keyofc]

Oops!
Here it is...

[zoecalgary]

Oops sorry I didn't realize I was holding up the thread. I'll try and finish the minuet in the next few days. I thought I would stop here for this assignment but realize now that's just silly. I'll go back and finish it.

[ajspiano]

Oops sorry I didn't realize I was holding up the thread. I'll try and finish the minuet in the next few days. I thought I would stop here for this assignment but realize now that's just silly. I'll go back and finish it.

!! - its not compulsory zoe!

I just didnt want to take off infront of you if you were still trying to get your head around things.

[candlelightpiano]

Zoe, you've already got 24 bars done.  I can't remember exactly how many measures we were supposed to write but if it's 36, you only have 12 left and you composed a very pretty melody.  It sounds very Baroque to me. 

[zoecalgary]

AJ of course it's not compulsory but it's darn fun and I'm learning lots! It's just sometimes I get overloaded with things at home and can't devote as much time to piano as I'd like too! I have 2 young boys who keep me hopping for a good part of my day :-).  So that's why my time here and on actual playing and learning varies from day to day and week to week!  

Still though thanks for waiting for me. I'll do my best to finish this soon! Trust me I am motivated just time constrained. And as Choo said I don't have much more to do.

[keyofc]

If anyone noticed, I have since changed m29 to include an F for Db chord....

[candlelightpiano]

I didn't notice, keyofC.  Your minuet has a pretty tune.  I didn't notice any F in bar 29.

[keyofc]

I changed it - but had trouble posting it...

[keyofc]

JMenz,
for someone that is not into theory - how did you select your title?
I had never heard of these scales and now how discovered 3 different ones in my Sibelius
program with this names.

Or are you not into the confines of theory?

[quiescen]

A new piano piece I composed. It's a 12-bar phrase repeated twice.

I'm actually going to break this down and show students how to do it in my next piano lesson. Free sheet music for this too at https://solosheets.blogspot.com

[candlelightpiano]

That's a pretty neat composition and with the sounds of nature, it's bliss!  Do show us how you composed it.

[keyofc]

Quiescen,

It's very relaxing!
How do you use the videos?
Is it a program you buy?

[j_menz]

JMenz,
for someone that is not into theory - how did you select your title?
I had never heard of these scales and now how discovered 3 different ones in my Sibelius
program with this names.

Or are you not into the confines of theory?

It's named after the scale (prometheus scale).  Found it largely by accident whilst web surfing.

Not so much not into the confines of theory as not into theory, though hoping maybe to develop some interest.

[candlelightpiano]

Not so much not into the confines of theory as not into theory, though hoping maybe to develop some interest.

For someone who is not into theory, how did you learn to compose like that?  Your composition was really good and quite complex.

[keyofc]

I really enjoy listening to all of the minuets done here.

Thanks to Aj for starting this -
It had never occured to me to even do one and think it's fun.
One thing I've noticed is it has helped me a lot in coming up with a bass line.  Instead of playing
chords for accompaniment.

So how does everyone define a minuet?

[j_menz]

For someone who is not into theory, how did you learn to compose like that?  Your composition was really good and quite complex.

Thanks. 

I've played quite a lot of music, so I have a pretty good working idea of what looks and sounds right. I just don't have the language to describe that in words.

[starstruck5]

Your Autumn Serenade is very beautiful Q. 

I haven't contributed anything to this thread so far -but I have followed it with interest -I wrote a few minuets when I studied Music as part of my Arts degree -so forgive me if I don't wish to go over old ground!  I have been impressed with the efforts so far.  Some of them better than mine I have to say!

AJ you are doing a fine job -it isn't easy organising such a complex project!! 

[fleetfingers]

I've been busy but had some time last night to compose my Minuet. It's different from the other one I posted, because it too closely resembled Bach's Minuet. 

I am not sure about my B Section. I tried to add interest, but maybe it's too weird? Let me know what you think!

https://musescore.com/user/26470/scores/45433


Yes, AJ, great job! And thank you! Looking forward to working on a gigue, although I don't think I've ever played one, so I've a lot of researching to do! 

[candlelightpiano]

Welcome back, Fleet!  Your minuet sounds very good.  I like the repeated part in the first section and the modulations sounded nice.  I don't know much about gigues, either, so you're not alone.

[austinarg]

Welcome back, Fleet!  Your minuet sounds very good.  I like the repeated part in the first section and the modulations sounded nice.  I don't know much about gigues, either, so you're not alone.

Wow, 1000th post!  Congratulations!

[sueyin]

Wow, 1000th post!  Congratulations!

If you tease,  candlelight may not post again!

[fleetfingers]

Thanks, Choo!   I am glad to hear that I'm not alone on the gigue . . .

[ajspiano]

Hi everyone!

My absence has come to an end. I'm glad to see a few new pieces added while I was away, we now have 7 complete minuets listed in the OP! Awesome.

I plan to do up an instruction set for the gigue tomorrow, and for those of you with balls of steel, some basic exercises for learning counterpoint. I've mentioned it before but you can just shoot off infront of me if you're willing to read about "species counterpoint" which simplifies the whole process and has been used as a tool for teaching counterpoint for a long long time.

[j_menz]

My absence has come to an end.

Welcome back AJ.

Looking forward to the gigue primer.  Still going to do that in traditional style, but I also need some of the counterpoint stuff to do a trio for my minuet.  I've taken a side track re modulations for the prometheus scale, and am going to attempt something based on the colour patterns involved (Scriabin was synaesthetic).  Not quite sure how it's going to work yet or what the result will sound like, but should be at least interesting.

[zoecalgary]

Welcome back AJ! "balls of steel" that was hilarious!! There us a
gigue in my new RCM grade 5 book. I could scan it and post it if
People feel like it may help them to see an example.

Yikes I've been wrapped up in getting ready for my grade 4 exam and haven't Finished my minuet yet. I better get on it!! I do want to finish it!  My exam was on Saturday and I feel free!!

[ajspiano]

So clearly I was a bit lazy over the last few days..  anywho - here's a bunch of introductory info reworded from the Schenker guide website, and other sources in my head..

CONSONANCE - DISSONANCE

Why does that matter? - because there's some rules about the kinds of intervals you can use when/where. - basically as I understand it, the ear generally (with the exception of ted for example) likes to hear consonance over dissonance, or rather that one is complete and accepted as finished by the ear/brain - and the other needs to be resolved..

Dictionary.com says -

Consonance -

a simultaneous combination of tones conventionally accepted as being in a state of repose.

Dissonance -

a. a simultaneous combination of tones conventionally accepted as being in a state of unrest and needing completion.

b. an unresolved, discordant chord or interval.

..SO WHATS WHAT?...

...generally -

Consonant (perfect) intervals - 8ve, unison, 4ths, 5ths
Consonant (imperfect) intervales - 3rds, 6ths
Dissonant intervals - 2nds, 7ths..

As a pretty basic rule, (you'll probably immediately find examples of where its broken) you may put consonant intervals on the strong beats in a bar, and dissonant intervals on the weak beats, which creates a sense of tension and resolution in the music, and allows the ear/brain to feel that the sound is "complete" in conjunction with the strong rhythmic pulses (A.K.A. - "will always sound at least roughly ok")

^This is kind of what i began explaining in my little harmony video for the minuet - I placed consonant intervals (I used 8ves 3rds and 5ths only I think?) on beat 1 (a strong beat) of every bar.

................

Writing in first species counter point, and using this knowledge of consonance and dissonance.

First species just means that there isn't really rhythmic variation - for every 1 note in the first part, there is 1 note in the second part. I've given it a go, the file is attached.. I'm really no expert at this, so don't try to emulate me too much.. I've not done a whole lot of composition in the baroque realm, and have not had a teacher show me how to do this and point out my errors..

I've tried to create 2 different melodic curves that 'counter' each other, and for the most part have used consonant intervals on beats 1 and 3, dissonant on 2 and 4.. ?? Also, its a rush job but I tried to create 2 seperate lines that would sound like a melody when played in isolation, rather than a melody and accompaniment ... - what does everyone think?

[ajspiano]

for the most part have used consonant intervals on beats 1 and 3, dissonant on 2 and 4.. ??

...i bunged that up - in first species all intervals should be consonant.. its also a series of semibreves, creating consonant intervals on the 1st (strong beat) of every bar

Showing my forgetfulness and failure to read the entirety of the instruction set.. There's also a bunch of other rules I failed to read and follow..

https://www.schenkerguide.com/species1.html

[candlelightpiano]

Welcome back, AJ!!! I've missed you.  Really.

Anyway, I played thru your little composition.  The dissonant interval on the 4th beat of the first bar sounds ok.  But the ones on the 2nd and 4th beats of the second bar really clash.

So should I compose something similar in 3 measures but with only consonant intervals and in semibreves?  

Semibreves - is that a whole note?

If a semibreve is a whole note, what time signature should we use? We will need more than 3 measures if we're going to use semibreves, I think.  Don't you?

Could you make us another example, please?

[ajspiano]

Welcome back, AJ!!! I've missed you.  Really.

Anyway, I played thru your little composition.  The dissonant interval on the 4th beat of the first bar sounds ok.  But the ones on the 2nd and 4th beats of the second bar really clash.

So should I compose something similar in 3 measures but with only consonant intervals and in semibreves? 

Semibreves - is that a whole note?

If a semibreve is a whole note, what time signature should we use? We will need more than 3 measures if we're going to use semibreves, I think.  Don't you?

Could you make us another example, please?

Yes semibreves are whole notes.

Lets consider my first example flat out useless, its not theoretically correct for what I'm trying to explain, and i agree about the clashing tones. I will leave it there though - if anything its more of an example of what happens when you alternate between consonant and dissonant intervals than a proper example for counterpoint I think.. I also left out some bits and pieces in the consonance dissonance explanation - for example, i made no mention of the tri-tone, which is a dissonant interval found within the major scale, so it really needs addressing.

I will supply some exercises soon - I've just been reading a bunch and will write up soon something that follows everything properly the way it would be taught traditionally instead of just throwing something together in a rush. I have copies of 4 different textbooks for this so I should be able to come up with something halfway decent..  (like I said earlier in the thread somewhere, this is as much about me learning as it is anyone else)

Yes it will be more than 3 bars, I'll probably use johann fux's cantus firmus examples.. which are roughly 8-12 measures in length, and in semibreves.

https://homepage.eircom.net/~gerfmcc/SpeciesOne.html

I also found this which seems like a cool analysis/stripped down version of fux's book, translated (YAY!) since the full copy on IMSLP is in a language I do not understand. - probably not for the faint hearted..  it just tells you what the rules are, there's not a whole lot of examples to better illustrate.
https://www.thereelscore.com/PortfolioStuff/PDFFiles/CounterPointFux.pdf

[ajspiano]

Here we go, here we go, here we go..

Cantus firmus in 6 modes.

Why no locrian? I'm guessing because it has a dissonant root chord due to the lowered 5th.

What are modes? ROUGHLY - imagine these are all melodies written in C major, the "ionian" mode is the standard major scale. The "dorian" is like C major, but D is the root, instead of C. In each subsequant mode a different scale degree from C major is the root note. You can tell what the root is because in all cases its the first and last note of the cantus firmus.

Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian

The objective here would be to write a second part either above or below each of the cantus firmus (or just 1 or 2 if thats enough for you). Just write 1 semibreve for each semibreve in the C.F. and always use consonant intervals, that is, unisons, 3rds, 5ths, 6ths and 8ves.

Additionally, if you are particularly game, there are some basic rules to consider..

Unisons, 5ths and 8ves are Perfect intervals
3rds and 6ths are imperfect

• From on PERFECT consonance to another
  PERFECT consonance must proceed in contrary or
  oblique motion
• From PERFECT consonance to IMPERFECT
  consonance one may proceed in any of three motions
• From IMPERFECT consonance to PERFECT
  consonance must proceed in contrary or oblique
  motion
• From IMPERFECT consonance to IMPERFECT
  consonance one may proceed with any of three
  motions

^ if too much thinking maybe just ignore that temporarily.

Also - try to use STEP motion (part moves in 2nds), rather than LEAPS (part moves in 3rds or greater) for most of your part, AND where you use a leap, you will often then go back in the opposing direction (as in if you leap up in pitch, you will probably then step (sometimes leap) down in pitch) If you observe the cantus firmus examples you will see this is observed most of the time.. there are ofcourse exceptions..  think "guide" note "rule"

I will post my attempts in due course, though I will be at a wedding tonight so it will probably be late tomorrow before I do it.

....

EVERYONE please tell me if this is too much for you..

[candlelightpiano]

Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian

The objective here would be to write a second part either above or below each of the cantus firmus (or just 1 or 2 if thats enough for you). Just write 1 semibreve for each semibreve in the C.F. and always use consonant intervals, that is, unisons, 3rds, 5ths, 6ths and 8ves.
 

I'm quoting you up the where I think I understand what you're talking about.  Further than that and you've lost me.    

So let me see if I understand this:

For example, using the melody you've given us for Ionian:

Ionian

I'm supposed to write a second part either above or below those notes in the treble clef only?

Similarly, with the other 5 modes?  Just write the second part above or below the notes you posted?