Composition

[austinarg]

Additional options -> Attach

You're welcome 

[zoecalgary]

Choo when you reply on the thread look to the lower left below the box you type on you will see a + sign for additional options. You will see the attach option there. Don't feel bad I couldn't figure this out either and thought I was just to tired to see it last night.

Thanks for telling us about Musescore I never heard of it before. Looks like a good program though I am getting frustrated entering notes with the mouse. I need to connect my digital to see of this goes faster!

[ajspiano]

Actually I think that the musescore user thing you guys are doing it probably better, not only can you play it but you can also download the score file as midi and import it back into musescore, so we could all freely arrange eachs others work..

Do you have to register on the musescore site to do that?

[ajspiano]

Thanks for telling us about Musescore I never heard of it before. Looks like a good program though I am getting frustrated entering notes with the mouse.

The different note values are assigned to the number keys (on your keyboard), so you can avoid having to constantly move the mouse up and down, and the N key switches on and off the note input function, so that you can edit notes..  when you have a note selected in edit mode, the up and down arrow move it a semitone at a time, the left/right arrows move you to the adjacent notes.

[candlelightpiano]

Choo when you reply on the thread look to the lower left below the box you type on you will see a + sign for additional options. You will see the attach option there. Don't feel bad I couldn't figure this out either and thought I was just to tired to see it last night.

Thanks for telling us about Musescore I never heard of it before. Looks like a good program though I am getting frustrated entering notes with the mouse. I need to connect my digital to see of this goes faster!

Thanks so much, Zoe.  And Austin.  Let me try here ...I'm utterly obsessed with not being able to attach this .pdf.  I can't concentrate until I do!!  Here goes ...

[candlelightpiano]

Zoe, you were GREAT!!!!!  I got it!  Eureka!!  I'm so happy!  Now I can concentrate on composition!  I didn't even know about this thing down there for additional options....You're a wonderful teacher, Zoe!

AJ:  I'll attach both the link to the page where you can play the tune and also the .pdf.

[ted]

Ted - I'd love to hear your music.

Several examples exist in various places in the audition room. Don't take too much notice of what I say about composition. Just because I don't understand theories doesn't imply other people might not find them very useful. They are just another valid creative option, and surely the final result is all that matters to the listener, with or without rules. I assure you I would not feel sick were I to know that rules had been used to create a piece I heard. The sound is all that would interest me as the listener. For all I knew, the source of the composer's creation might have been the sausages he ate for breakfast.

[candlelightpiano]

Listen here: https://musescore.com/user/26470/scores/43769

Lovely composition, Fleet, complete with phrasing, staccato and even a grace note!  I'm a little behind as I was obsessed about that .pdf thing so I'm playing catch up.  I'll play yours, Austin, and Zoe's next.  

[candlelightpiano]

Actually I think that the musescore user thing you guys are doing it probably better, not only can you play it but you can also download the score file as midi and import it back into musescore, so we could all freely arrange eachs others work..

Do you have to register on the musescore site to do that?

Yes, but it's free.

[ajspiano]

Taking it further -

Don't mean to rush anyone, so if you're not ready for this thats fine, just stick with your section A until your happy to move on. - fleet and austin seem like they can add more so I'm throwing this up.

In this example, I've taken my piece into the first half of section B. I've created a contrasting harmonic progression by beginning on the subdominant, and included a modulation into the dominant key, D major, and a note to lead back to/into G major.

The way I've written this means my section B won't have the first 8 bars repeated like in the mozart examples, rather its more like a couple of bachs ideas.

EDIT:
A bit later and I've got the rest of section B and its harmony, and the accompaniment for the first half starting to take shape..

EDIT-EDIT:
https://musescore.com/user/26500/scores/43794 - this is a whole thing, still needs work (and phrasing/dynamics/etc) but all the notes are there. 32 bars, 2 sections, melody and accompaniment.

[m1469]

Okay, here's a section A ... I got too excited just to compose and record and post, so I'm still not completely caught up in this thread.  This isn't the score, either, it's just me playing (I wrote it in Sibelius but my computer doesn't transfer to PDF).  Boy, if I'm going to do this at all, there's no way I'm keeping up with this thread ... but, I guess I'll just slink in every once in a while.

Cheers!

[candlelightpiano]

WOW!! m1469, that was terrific!  I especially loved that left hand melody!!  Cool!  You sound like a very experienced composer!     Wish I could compose like that. 

Austin and Zoe: I enjoyed your compositions.  Zoe, you have a very nice melody.  Austin, your second try was better and easier to play. 

Here's mine with the accompaniment (AJ, I composed my accompaniment before I read your latest notes but I can change it, if you like):

https://musescore.com/user/26449/scores/43795

[zoecalgary]

AJ - I really must say Thank you so much for starting this thread! It is giving my brain a workout! Really! But in a good way! I slept like a baby last night (well it helped that it was 1:30 in the morning but I couldn't stop working on my little tune. I just kept wanting to change things and change things and change things!).  I eventually got so tired I couldn't concentrate and the software was starting to drive me crazy too and get in my way so to speak!  Also, thanks so much for your answers to my questions. I enjoyed each and every one of them and they helped!

What do you think of the book idea? I'm a big 'reader' (I'll read everything I can get my hands on!) and I would be ok for ordering a book as some type of reference. Of course I doubt the book would be anywhere near as fun and entertaining and challenging as all the first hand knowledge you're sharing with us!

I hooked up my computer to my dp. It worked a bit faster for me to get the notes in this way. Though I can still work away from the piano too.   I've spent some time editing my piece and adding left hand. Not quite ready to post though.

[zoecalgary]

m1469, Choo, and Fleet - I loved all of your pieces. They sounded so good! Fleet yours in particular has a very familiar ring to it for me.  Like I've heard it before somewhere.

I haven't played the others yet as I'm dead tired and I need to get to sleep. I like how you've all posted these. Being able to see the music and hear it really does help. I'll have to post mine like this tomorrow.

Great work everybody!! What Fun!

P.S. - Choo, I was obsessed with getting my computer hooked up to my dp and now that it's taken care of I can focus more on the composition. So I know how you feel!  In another life I did software support for awhile and I learned to be explicit when talking computers and helping folks!  :-)

[ajspiano]

I've edited the OP - it now quickly describes..  hmm.. maybe just look at it.

Thanks for everyone who's contributed so far, this really is an awesome thread - and I don't mean to take any credit for that.

For the record, I have never had a composition teacher - i've just been reading and observing for a reasonable amount of time, and in a wide variety of musical styles. The only composition in my formal background came from my graded theory exams, and the general knowledge in the practical exams relating to form etc. - but  my teacher wasnt a lot of use on that front and she certainly did not encourage creativity.

My learning back then was a bit driven by the mentality of "this is the answer, memorise it. No I don't care about you 'understanding', or the fact that it sounds good another way, just do what i say." 

@choo -

change it based on my notes if you actually want to, if you want help then feel free to ask.

[m1469]

OK, cool updates on your original post, AJ.  Today I will manage to get my minuet into the program you are suggesting for people, I will aim to play other people's minuets, and I will aim to write at least part of the B section (and I have a couple of revisions for the A section - and might find more while I look at it more critically).

[austinarg]

My try at section B...

[fleetfingers]

So far, I've only listened to aj's Section B as an example . . . very lovely, I must say . . . So, it looks like you are not following a strict pattern, with the repeat in lines 1 and 3, as we did with Section A. But the last measure is the same in those lines. Is that a "rule"? What else did you do that I'm not noticing to tie things together? Anything?? Or do we just do whatever sounds good?

Another question: I see how you modulated to D, which was nice. Many Minuets will go into a minor key (right?? at least I think so ). Any thoughts on that, like which is easier or more common? Any other options for Section B to add interest? Should the last line return to the theme in Section A?

Thanks in advance! This is a fun project! I have not had time yet to work on my second section, but I've been humming some ideas . . .

[candlelightpiano]

Taking it further -

In this example, I've taken my piece into the first half of section B. I've created a contrasting harmonic progression by beginning on the subdominant, and included a modulation into the dominant key, D major, and a note to lead back to/into G major.

The way I've written this means my section B won't have the first 8 bars repeated like in the mozart examples, rather its more like a couple of bachs ideas.

AJ, I haven't had a chance to take a look at your edited composition but would you like me to re-do mine to start on the subdominant, etc?  What do you think of mine so far?

Zoe:  I didn't make friends with you in order to have you help me with computer stuff - but it sure is a big bonus for me!!!    

Fleet:  What do you mean by your second section?  I thought you completed it yesterday.  

Austin:  I'll play your section B ...

EDIT

Okay, I just listened to your second section, AJ and now I understand.  So I need to add to my composition to make a 32 bar minuet. I printed your pdfs and will read to try and understand what you're talking about.

I don't know how to do modulations!

[nystul]

This thread caught my interest.  I'd never tried to compose a minuet before so I thought I'd give it a shot.  I originally composed it in C major, but the B section needed to be a little higher on the keyboard so I have made this a minuet in Eb major.  I had the B section start in the relative minor and modulate back.  Well, here's what I came up with...

[ajspiano]

Modulations - warning, big chunk of theory in here.

I'm going to take a look at a couple of different keys, and there relationships to other keys in order to begin explaining how to modulated, and have it sound good..

Here's my Key/scale - and its closest relatives.

G major - G A B C D E F#
dominant (or 5th degree of G) - D major - D E F# G A B C#
relative minor (or 6th degree of G) - E minor - E F# G A B C D#

In both instances there is only a single note difference between the relative scales -
For the dominant key, its the C#. For the relative minor its the D# - also note that in both instances this is the 7th degree of their respective scales.

Now in order to modulate, and have your listeners realise you've done so you must 'sound' the difference between the scales, or in other words if I'm in G and notate/play a C# then I'll sound as if I've moved to D major, but if I just start thinking in D major, my listeners would not pick it up until I use the C#.

Modulating by use of the secondary dominant chord.

I pointed out that the difference between the scales occurs on the 7th degree of the new scale - which sounds as the 3rd of a V chord, as below..

In D Major - D E F# G A B C# D E F# G A

This chord, A Major, is the dominant chord of the key D major. - When our starting key is G major, we would call this the secondary dominant for the V chord of G major (I'm sure I'm confusing people now..)

Here's a break down of all the possible secondary dominants closely relating to my original key, G major..

G A B C D E F# - now the chords from G, and their secondary dominants

G major - D major (this is not a secondary, its just the dominant.)
A minor - E major
B minor - F# major
C major - G major
D major - A major - the one I used in my minuet!!
E minor - B major - here's the relative minor
F# half dim - lets not worry about this one yet, its a little more complex.

_______________

more subtle progression -
COMMON CHORD ---> SECONDARY DOMINANT ---> TONIC IN NEW KEY.

again I'll list all the chords from G major -
G major
A minor
B minor
C major
D major
E minor
F# half dim.

Now - all the chords from my dominant key, D major

D major
E minor
F# minor
G major
A major
B minor
C# half dim

...Look closely - D major, E minor, G major and B minor chords are all common to both keys!

Why does that matter - well if i'm in G, i can seamlessly transition to any of these chords without creating any sudden unexpected changes in harmony - and they also all run into other chords in D major seamlessly because they fit in BOTH keys. So thats the common chord.

Why the secondary dominant? dominant chords naturally lead to their associated tonic chord, so the progression of common chord, to secondary dominant, to new tonic works, and gets you completely into the new key without any hiccups.

Some ways of doing this will still sound better to you than others, but I hope I've given a bit of a start as to understanding how the keys relate and how to create a seamless changing of key.

No doubt I've also sparked a million and 1 questions for some, so fire away.

AJ

[ajspiano]

I'd never tried to compose a minuet before so I thought I'd give it a shot...  ...Well, here's what I came up with...

   Awesome! - I've added your piece to the OP - and I look forward to having a play through it myself later on.

I like how you started you're B section - I didnt mean to suggest to everyone with mine that they should or must begin section B on the subdominant, this shows another cool way to create a clear differentiation between you're sections.

[austinarg]

Interesting post, AJ! One more thing, how do modes fit in all of this?

[ajspiano]

Interesting post, AJ! One more thing, how do modes fit in all of this?

Without going into too much detail - initially different modes may be thought of as a set of closely related major and minor scales..

here's a bunch of D minor scales, essentially we can consider them to be minor because the 3rd, is a minor third above the tonic.
 
D E F G A Bb C# D - harmonic minor
D E F G A Bb C D - natural minor (also aeolian mode)
D E F G A B C D - Dorian
D Eb F G A Bb C D - Phrygian

So these are all arguably not related, the harmonic minor is kind of in its own world as it does not belong to a major key, the aeolian is in the F major family, Dorian is from C major and Phrygian is from Bb Major -

Sets of 'modes' can be related to a given key..

Heres D mixolydian mode
D E F# G A B C D - its relatable to the other modes that use the same notes as the common G major scale -
the others are..

G ionian - standard major scale
A dorian
B Phrygian
C lydian
D mixolydian
E aeolian
F# locrian

Same concept gets applied to the harmonic, or melodic minor scales to create their sets of modes also.

Its possible to write in a minor key, that is from a major tonality..  some of these modes are less common in classical music though.

Listen to "so what" by miles davis - its in D dorian, so it uses the same notes as the C major scale, but the key centre is actually D minor, its dorian sound is characterised by the use of the note "B", which is the significant difference between dorian minor and almost all other D minor variants that have a Bb

[candlelightpiano]

My try at section B...

I just listened to your composition, Austin.  Very nice!  Stately ...and what a powerful ending!! 

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:  Thanks for the theory of modulation.  My head is quite spinning a bit trying to digest all that stuff.  So, to continue with my piece, if I started with the subdominant of G major, which is C, which is what you did, then when do I decide to modulate to D major (C#).  I notice in your new section, you had the C# in the 7th bar of Section B but not earlier.  How do you decide where to begin your modulation?  If I sound confused ...I am!!!!!    Or maybe I should just try my hand at composing the modulation in Section B and you can tell me if I got it or not?  

EDIT

I looked through your notes on your composition, AJ, and I think maybe I get it so I'll just work on it tonight and you can tell me if I understood.  Thanks.

[ajspiano]

@choo -

One way to do it would be to write the melody first, then wherever you've put a "C" change it to a C# and see what it sounds like, when you find one you like you keep it and write your harmony accordingly..

@fleet -
as far as the last bars being similar to section A, I must've done that subconciously. I wouldn't consider my example to be "right" necessarily either..  One thing I did do was write a new section for the last 8 bars which has some rhythm and harmony in common with section A, but different melodic ideas. It gives it what might border on a rounded binary type form, so it feels like the ending ties in with section A, without really giving it a ternary form of ABA.

I will be doing an extensive analysis of my own piece noting all the harmonic, rhythmic, melodic ideas I considered some time in the next couple of days for anyone thats interested.

[ajspiano]

mozart modulates like a pro.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ.  I'll work on it that way then.  Did you write on the Mozart piece about the modulation and the E7? 

[ajspiano]

Thanks, AJ.  I'll work on it that way then.  Did you write on the Mozart piece about the modulation and the E7? 

yes : imslp + photoshop.

[candlelightpiano]

Okay. Here's my extended composition with modulation (Section B, I guess). Please let me know if I did it right.

https://musescore.com/user/26449/scores/43881

I bet you never expected to generate this kind of interest in composition!!   

[ajspiano]

https://musescore.com/user/26449/scores/43881

...

Just throwing this up as a thought - I don't mean to say there's anything wrong with what you have, just I'm 99% sure you won't have thought of something like this..

It may need a little more adjusting than I have indicated here. - I didnt listen to my suggestion either - I just theorised so to speak..  maybe its terrible 

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:  I played your adjustments and the C# in the LH doesn't sound good with the E of the RH. And the F# of the RH doesn't sound good with the D of the LH in that melody.  I think my melody sounded better.  Can you replay my melody and then your adjustments and let me know what you think?

EDIT

I'm attaching my comp as pdf so it's easier for you to print.

[ajspiano]

When you click the musescore link there's an option to download as a PDF from there

I haven't played yet, last night got crazy toward the end and I ha to run all over town past midnight. I'm in the city today so it'll have to wait a little longer.

If you think yours sounds better keep it. What's probably going on is that in order for my idea to work better more things need to change. My intention was never to suggest that one way would be better than the other - more so to draw your attention to the fact that you could create the sense of modulation in the left hand, and that by trying different things like that when you spot the possibilities in your score you can generate more ideas..  Change the accompaniment and that drives a change in the melody and vice versa.

EDIT:
choo, are you settled on it as a complete piece, can I add it to the OP? ..or would you like to spend a bit more time on it?

[candlelightpiano]

What is OP, AJ?  

EDIT

Do you think my composition is good enough as is?  Is the modulation okay to you?

[ajspiano]

What is OP, AJ?  

EDIT

Do you think my composition is good enough as is?  Is the modulation okay to you?

OP means "Original Post" - you'll see I've started adding finished pieces to the first post in the thread.

..

Yes I do - there are things I could suggest to you for it, but I think in may be more proactive for both the thread and your own learning to just say thats it, and have a go at writing a new piece, either another minuet or a new form in the near future when everyone else finishes and we move on.

I always think its kind of cool to be able to look back at previous attempts and see the learning progression - and it stops you from getting frustrated trying to create a master piece on your first go. You can always revisit it if you want to later. - I actually don't much care for mine, however I found mayla's ideas and nystul's quite inspiring and I'm looking forward to writing a new one, and including some more contrapuntal ideas too - I've been picking up on those from looking through some of bach's more complex minuets.

The real question is are you happy with it? would you enjoy playing it yourself, or would you rather play a piece of mozart?

[candlelightpiano]

AJ, you're too funny!  Of course I'd rather play Mozart than my one very humble composition but I know that I do not have much talent for composition so at this time, if you feel that my "composition" is good enough to post to the OP (I didn't realize you'd started listing our comps there but I'll go take a look now), then yes, I'm satisfied with it for now.  I've been taking ideas from your composition samples as I don't know enough about theory to really go my own way yet so I'm very glad you create samples for us to follow.  Thanks. 

[ajspiano]

https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/174703 - look at No. 53, the andante.

This is mozart's first composition. Obviously he went on to produce amazing music, and he was also just 5 when he wrote this, but piece vs piece, are you really that far behind him at this point? A few more goes and you'd have a enough understanding to produce something like this without help.

[candlelightpiano]

https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/174703 - look at No. 53, the andante.
This is mozart's first composition. Obviously he went on to produce amazing music, and he was also just 5 when he wrote this, but piece vs piece, are you really that far behind him at this point? A few more goes and you'd have a enough understanding to produce something like this without help.

It looks very good for a 5 year old!!  Do you really think me capable of doing something close to this in time?  Thank you for your confidence in me!  How very nice of you!   

[keyofc]

Here is a beginning...

[zoecalgary]

Here is my second attempt at part A. I think this one is better than my first attempt.

https://musescore.com/user/26878/scores/44140

I am now going to start on Part B.

[zoecalgary]

So I've started part B and I'm having trouble with the transition starting on measure 17. But here is my first attempt. What I'm trying to do is transition from D major to A major but it couldn't smooth it out.

Any and all comments welcome.


https://musescore.com/user/26878/scores/44157

[keyofc]

m1469,

What version of Sibelieus do you have?
I have 4 - You might be able to  do a cut and paste - and then turn it into a jpg.

[candlelightpiano]

KeyofC:  Nice start to your composition and welcome!

Zoe: I liked your minuet very much.  The repeated LH notes add a touch of grandness to it, like soldiers heeding the call to attention!     I know very little about modulation so can't suggest anything but your modulation sounded alright to me.  Didn't sound like it was out of key or anything.  AJ will be able to help you more.  Hope he shows up soon. 

[zoecalgary]

I learned something today. After I posted the above links to my Minuet I printed the score and played it at the piano. I realized that some things didn't sound right! I had done the melody and LH at the piano by working out ideas for part a.  Today I did most of part b at the computer. I did some odd things in both the melody and LH that didn't sound right or were Odd combinations Of notes to play. I never noticed most of the issues on the scoring program but playing really highlighted these issues. So I'll have to rework a good part of this. :-(

This was a very interesting discovery for me. Compose at the keyboard not the Computer!!  Since I learned something all is well I guess!! :-)

[j_menz]

OK, late entry. 

Was going to stay away given my grasp of theory, but had to have a go.

Here's an atonal one using the prometheus scale, a hexascale based on Scriabin's mystic chord. Probably stuffed up the theory behind it completely, but I think it sounds OK for a plinker.

[keyofc]

ZOE, did you use more 2nds?

 

[keyofc]

Thanks, Candelight -
I think you guys are way ahead of me - but I find this a lot of fun.

Took a lot of time figuring out how to share via computer too.

[ajspiano]

J_menz - that is excellent, it's exactly the kind of thin I was hoping to see from the few people that would be capable of such a thing - though I'm sure there will be some people that can't get their heads around something atonal. Even so I think it's shows really well how far you can push the form, maybe Ted will find yours interesting?

Zoe - I'm glad to see you've put something up! It looks like you've had a lot of fun experimenting with the rhythms for your composition. Not that I think it matters for our purposes but I wonder whether some of them are a little outside what would fit into a minuet - I'll have to take a closer look at some more of them to see if I can identify any conventions for variations of the rhythms. On the subject of composing at the computer or keyboard - was that so you could hear it? In muses Orr you can press spacebar to play your composition.. I want to look closer at yours before I make any comment about your notes and how you've done the modulation...

And ofcourse have a look at the other new submissions, will be adding some more to the OP. We are building up quite a little collection, it's great.

....

I've been thinking we could do gigues next, they have a similar structure but are in compound time so have a completely different rhythm/feel.

[zoecalgary]

Thanks AJ! I really had fun with this exercise. I know I have much to learn though. This has really stretched my brain but in a fun and good way! A gigue? Never heard of that. I better go do some research!  Looking forward to your comments and the next exercise (even though I'm not really completely done this one!)