here you go new video Chopin op10-4

[johnmar78]

Folks, my second trial, this is aimed at articulation.

Speed at 132(practice); slow at 69. I am still aming at 160.

All comments are welcome..

[candlelightpiano]

Good going, John!!  Your fingers are really moving here!!

[starstruck5]

Once you iron out some of the places where you hesistate  -(what an old teacher used to describe to me as a quicksand moment) - then I think you are ready to speed this up -where technique is the ultimate aim -then only technical perfection -or near technical perfection will do! You have set yourself a might challenge -keep at it -I am sure you will get there!

[rachfan]

Hi johnmar,

No. 4 is a fingers study to develop agility and velocity. So here evenness of articulation is what will make or break the rendition.  I think you have made a very good start on it.  If I were you, I would be in no hurry to attain velocity at the expense of evenness.  You must work up to it.  Only play up to a velocity where you have complete control over articulation and avoid hesitations.  Slow practice with steel fingers at forte will have a part in practicing, as this is an etude for both hands, not just featuring one hand.  But for playing a fast piece such as this one, slow practice has a limited role in exaggerating evenness of fingers.  

Beyond that, when playing at faster tempos, look for "breakdowns" and visually determine the causes.  It might be that you need to move the arms in a way to better position the hands in places, or alter the lateral or vertical movement of the wrists, alter a fingering, curve or flatten fingers, etc.  This has more to do with the "choreography" of the arms, wrists, hands and fingers.  Once you discover the necessary adjustments, then practice them to proficiency.  Rather than slow practice, for these particular situations it is more like practicing "on the fly". But you need both--slow for the fundamental structure and articulation of the music, and choreography to discover the sythesizing and integrating motions of the entire playing apparatus that are often not apparent in slow practice, but that become problematic at tempo.

I want to make it plain that I am NOT much of a proponent of Hanon.  Generally I like to develop technique directly from solving problems of pianism within the repertoire itself.  Having said that, this Etude No. 4 is not dissimilar in some ways from five-finger exercises.  To enhance agility and suppleness, occasionally I've played all of Part II of Hanon (Part I is too easy) evenly at about MM = 100.  It only takes a few minutes to play the entire section.  That agility might well transfer over into No. 4 for you.  I cannot see that it will hinder you.

David

[ajspiano]

Agree with David...

You look as though you are building a speed wall as you are struggling to play evenly and with good control over the instruments tone.

You need to play slower and work on the playing evenly, but compare that to fast attempts with conscious concideration of the movements required (then incorporate those into your slower work)

It's great that you have clear practice tempos and ideas, but it's not enough to get you to tempo here. Atleast not if you plan on producing a high quality performance of the piece. I'm sure you are aware of that though..

[johnmar78]

thanks everyone, yes I changed my matrix already doing 2Xslow 2X fast aimed for evenness and articulation. This last for around one hour before I do some other etude. The slow speed is arond 80.
I was been told throw your arm around hit as fast as possible but just to get a feel of speed then work slowly afterward.

I should try again soon with 10Xslow vs 2 fast see how I go. My finger at the moment is really loose as compared to 6 months ago. So This must be a good sign.

I love this etude, it never dies....

[iratior]

I like the way JohnMar has really charged into the project of doing Chopin etudes.  Despite the great irregularities of speed, he's coming up with a commendable degree of accuracy as far as getting the right notes goes.  Practicing the etude with a metronome might be helpful.

[hakki]

How about posting a video played at 69 MM, and asking about comments?

If you can manage to post a video that you play every note at this tempo very evenly (I mean, literally every note, LH and RH, not even a single missed or wrong note), I think, then we can better understand your current level with this etude. Also it does not have to be the whole etude, maybe just the first two pages.
Please also include the sound of your metronome with this recording. So that we can be sure that you are strictly on tempo. (not that we need it ,but I think you can understand what I am trying to say)
Let's see.

regards,
 

[pianowolfi]

When I practice this Etude, I love to imagine that I'm playing a Bach Prelude from WTC. If I can play it with the same accuracy and evenness as a Bach Prelude (for instance F sharp minor part 1), I proceed to a faster tempo and add the "con fuoco".

[costicina]

John, I bet you'll conquer this hard Etude. Your patience, your perserverance, your love for music will be rewarde, sooner than you think!!!!!
I know very well how frustrating it can be struggling with Chopette Etudes, but I've learned sooo much in the process, even if I'm not able yet to play them as I whish.

[49410enrique]

When I practice this Etude, I love to imagine that I'm playing a Bach Prelude from WTC. If I can play it with the same accuracy and evenness as a Bach Prelude (for instance F sharp minor part 1), I proceed to a faster tempo and add the "con fuoco".

you might be on to something i would need to hunt down some credible sources for citing but i have read this many many times before (or some other paraphrase of the same idea)


"...The general consensus is that Bach “teaches you everything” (Melanie) and is “the basis of all piano knowledge” (Lorraine) – phrasing, voicing, balance, techniques such as jeu perlé and legato, “orchestration”. Master Bach and you can play anything. Bach was revered by many composers who followed him, perhaps most notably, Fryderyk Chopin, who, it is said, studied the ’48′ every day (he took a copy of the manuscript with him on his ill-starred trip to Majorca)...."

[johnmar78]

thanks Hakki, costi Wofi..Eq, I would not dissapoint you. I will post a even/articulated version in about 2 weeks time. Just a start project.

[pts1]

Johnmar

A very nice effort!

IMO, this particular Chopin Etude is the most difficult of the "two handed" Etudes he wrote.
In order to really control this etude with precision, I think you are going to have to change your technique and play on the keys. Professionals all have at least one thing in common which is very efficient movement, which is accomplished by being on the keys before pulling down the key.

Here is a video of Roy Holmes (who learned this technique from the same teacher I did) showing the basics of how to accomplish this.

See what you think.

&feature=channel&list=UL

[pianoman53]

I'm sorry... I don't quite know what to say.

You don't have a teacher, do you?
You have the completely wrong technique for this piece, and you wont get anywhere with this unless you change it.

You have not really any control in your left hand, and I don't think you will develop this in this study.

If I were you, I would stop playing this etude for a while, and go for Hanon and scales, and maybe some of the smaller Haydn sonatas, and take your time figuring out everything in your own pace... but not with one of the most difficult Chopin-studies...

Maybe you think it would be better if I didn't say anything at all (a la: If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all), and in that case, ignore my comment.

[johnmar78]

Pt1 and paino53 thanks for your feed backs. Before you post your reply, I have fixed up my LH this week , since LH is weaker, with this etude now I am making my LH just as strong and even as RH. I watched Homles study, nice English accent, very good way a new idea, pluck inward action. So as his op10-1. Not agree 100%. But at least I can have a try.
About my teacher,
My former teacher said to me that my expectations was too high saying I have no talent, and should move on to some other music. Heehe...ee, well, yes or no. I will give one last stand as I told him, no sorry and no excuses. Something I want to do, which only happens in the last 3 months, I started to pick up. Bear in mind I had 3 years break since.
 I will get both hand evenly controlled with my technique, and I will try Holmes method see if taht makes sense or better.  Soon......

[hakki]

thanks Hakki, costi Wofi..Eq, I would not dissapoint you. I will post a even/articulated version in about 2 weeks time. Just a start project.

John, you don't have to prove anything to anybody here. We are all here to get/give some feedback, advice, help, praise, etc.
And, IMO, you are getting some very useful feedback here and have to listen to what they are trying to say. Some of them are expressing their thoughts in  a gentle way, while others might prefer a plain to the face approach. Either way, more or less everybody is saying that, there are some very fundamental issues involved in your playing that has to be corrected.

So, before trying to work on this for two weeks more, why not just post the first 8 bars (ending with the fp g# minor chord at the beginning of bar 9)  at 69 MM (that is for  a  quarter)while recording your metronome's sound also. If you feel 69 is too slow you can post the first 8 bars at 80 MM if you wish, which is half of your target speed (160 MM)

regards,

[johnmar78]

ok Hakki, I will do it in 48 hours....soon,,,frist 8 bars..sounds to easy .......

[costicina]

Hakki suggestion is very very clever....I'll keep it in mind for my practice!!!!

[pts1]

Johnmar

On viewing this a second time, I really must tell you what I see.

This piece is simply too difficult for you, and I believe its doing you more harm than good.

I don't say it to be unkind, but quite the contrary, to attempt to influence you to find something more in line with your abilities/development with which you can build forward instead of struggling.

I see you having a good deal of trouble playing both hands together, in time, and evenly, regardless of the passage.

Your finger work, also, is not precise or focused. To acquire the kind of technique to play this piece, one must imagine a very small spot on each key where you pull the key down with the smallest movement possible, consistently and with ease. This takes a good deal of training, especially with both hands in complicated passage work.

If you can do it musically, and slowly, the first few Book 1 Hanon exercises would teach you to place your fingers on the keys, and pull them down gently in unison, making each repeated motif a little musical expression. Also, this would teach you the gentle, very slight, rocking/rotation of the hand as it shapes itself to the keys. (Chopin taught that the 5 keys E, F#,G#, A#, B are the most natural keyboard shape for the hand). Oh, and if you do this, DO NOT pay attention to the instructions on how to practice the Hanon... its completely wrong!

Once you can do this, I'd move on to something a bit more challenging like the Bach Two Part Inventions, which Bach wrote as separate little studies to help his students with the greater difficulties encountered in his other works.

And basic scales are excellent also, as well as arpeggios, and such, played at a comfortable speed which is musical, as you control the keys feeling the weight of the keys as you pull each one down with a separate motion.

As I see it, these are the least of what you'll need to become fairly accomplished at in order to start learning this Chopin Etude, which would likely still be a formidable challenge for you, but at least by that time you'd have a reasonable chance of progressing with it.

Make no mistake... this is probably, IMHO, the absolute hardest of all the Chopin Etudes which fully exploits both hands. (most of them generally exploit difficulties in one hand, usually the right).

Its nickname is "The Torrent", and for good reason!<g>

I hope I haven't hurt your feelings, because this is not my intent, since I think being honest is the kindest thing to do.

Though admirable, I think you are shooting too high at this time, and need a good deal more foundation built before you can construct higher and higher structures.