World's hardest piece?

[eddie92099]

Gattaca is a movie (Uma Therman and Ethan Hawke) set in the future where people can be created as they are needed. One particular scene has a piano recital - and the piece played is Schubert's G-flat major impromptu (with an added line over the top  :-/). The idea is that 6 fingers on each hand are required to play it, so the pianist was created with this mutation...
Ed

[frederic]

I've been thinking about this recently.... I have this feeling that many young pianists talk about the Rachmaninoff's 3rd concerto ambitiously and regarding it as a killer, but really, has any of these pianists actually read through the score or studied it while treating it as a normal concerto? Like a Mozart concerto or something.
Why do so many young pianists have such a great fear for it?
Countless people on this forum have said "Hardest piece ever written? Don't say Rach3 please" as if they are saying i dont want to die from learning it or something.
I guess the answer would be that too many pianists have seen the movie "Shine" and are greatly discouraged.
I think its time to appreciate this work as a "great" concerto, not a "dangerous" concerto.

[eddie92099]

I have played through the score and I have not yet come across a more difficult concerto (and I know a lot of concerti!). It is certainly not impossible though,
Ed

[Wired]

The idea is that 6 fingers on each hand are required to play it, so the pianist was created with this mutation...

I remember that movie, a very good one. And indeed a funny part when he puts the glove on and doesn't fill one of the fingers.

I guess the answer would be that too many pianists have seen the movie "Shine" and are greatly discouraged.
I think its time to appreciate this work as a "great" concerto, not a "dangerous" concerto.

It is a great one. I am nearly obsessed with it, and I hope one day to be able to play it. But, I'm still happy just listening to it for now

[Laurationg]

The greatest recording (to me) of Rach 3 was the one played by  Martha Argerich.  She played with such fire, electricity, vitality...... simply magical!

[chopinetta]

yup! rach3 has that kind of reputation. but i don't think one should get discouraged!

what makes a piece difficult is fearing it.

[eddie92099]

The greatest recording (to me) of Rach 3 was the one played by  Martha Argerich.  She played with such fire, electricity, vitality...... simply magical!

I couldn't agree more,
Ed

[ASBpiano]

I just listened to the Rach 3 (Argerich) last night for the 80th time.  Absolutely awesome.  

Sorry if this was already posted, but out of curiousity, how difficult is the Tchaikovsky 1?

[eddie92099]

Because the Tchaikovsky is played so often, people make the mistake of thinking it is easy to play. Musically it is not particularly challenging but technically it is up there with the best of them,
Ed

[funkstar]

I'm surprised that Brahms' Paganini Variations only got one mention in this thread. Some of the Variations should be unplayable, but apparantly every once in a great while a pianist who can actually play them surfaces. Arrau was one. It doesn't look too daunting on paper, but the tempo kills. And when one fine-reads it, there are 9 to 4's, fast parallels of every variation (parallel sixths in the left hand being a special evilness), outer trills etc. etc. Even when I hear it, I find it difficult to believe that var. 14, book 1 and var. 10, book 2, are actually playable.

Though I am new to this forum (Hi, how are you?) I sincerely doubt anybody here can play them. But then, Julius Katchen might lurking around here, so I could be wrong...

[eddie92099]

Meiting can...go to www.mp3.com/thepianist to hear it (it's rather good!),
Ed

[funkstar]

I stand corrected!

[GodScriabin]

Anybody that says Liszt's music is the most difficult needs to try out Balakirev's Islamey. You may be surprised. I also have found some Scriabin's etudes to be difficult in respect to the amount of dexterity required to play his pieces correctly.

[eddie92099]

Anybody that says Liszt's music is the most difficult needs to try out Balakirev's Islamey. You may be surprised. I also have found some Scriabin's etudes to be difficult in respect to the amount of dexterity required to play his pieces correctly.

Anyone who thinks Balakirev's Islamey is difficult should try out some Boulez,
Ed

[guven]

Anything can be difficult if you want to play it good.

[trunks]

Ravel's Ondine is very tricky. It is perhaps the most difficult of all three in the Gaspard de la nuit.

But then the most difficult pieces are certainly those that I don't want to play at all - those that do little or nothing to me, such as 99% of Haydn and Scarlatti, 90% of Mozart . . . I bet these pieces will remain the most difficult to me forever.

If I love a piece with ardent passion I will disregard any technical difficulty because I find it worth the effort tackling and solving the difficulty. In fact I find pleasure practising difficult music provided, and only provided, that I love the music deeply enough that I want to play it no matter what. That was how I built up my memorized repertoire.

And hey I doubt if the Rachmaninoff Prelude Op.23 No.9 is physically possible at the staggering 152 crotchet beats per minute, as the Schirmer's edition suggests, ie., more than 10 semiquavers per second! Not talking about difficulty here. I think this is impossibility to the mortal flesh. And will that still be music at this lightning speed?

[comme_le_vent]

i realise that they are double notes, but its is perfectly possible.
alkan's comme le vent is at 240bpm in 16th notes - 16 notes a second - i realise that its in single notes - but double notes speed isnt that far behind.

[ponecorleone]

i have a recording of chopin op 10. no4 at 195bpm. some parts are easy enough at that speed , but they keep it up throughout. i find the hardest part to the part where the key has changed back to 4 #'s and the hand is cramped until the start of repetition in the left hand- c d b# c c d b# c!

[lostinidlewonder]

Ravel's Ondine is very tricky. It is perhaps the most difficult of all three in the Gaspard de la nuit.

I would say Scarbo is, the last movement.

Strangely enough you know i find the Ravels Piano concerto for Left Hand one of the toughest pieces for me. I just always feel like using two hands when playing that. I watched a video of Leon Fleischer play recently at the "French Night at the Waldbuhne" concert with the Berliner Philharmoniker conducted by Georges Pretre. How amazing he plays it. Good to see he can still use one arm at least. Poor guy, thats what happens with too much piano work. Warning to all i guess. But the expression, the multiple voices with one hand, the range you have to cover, the accuracy. Urrg, so tough.

[Skeptopotamus]

Opus Claviceliblasticum or whatever it is called is hard.



Rzewski's  8 HOUR poem for piano must be hard too.  i've never heard it but 8 hours=hard no matter what.


and it's Rzewski.

[ralessi]

im going to have to say that MANY people REALLLLLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYY underestimate the Liszt B Minor Sonata.  Although it sounds insanely difficult regardless.  If you havent, Listen to it while looking at the score.  you appreciate the pianist who is killing himself so much more!  The overall technical demand for that piece is out of this world, you really have to be strong in so many different areas, then make it sound like you arent just pounding out some Liszt.  I havent heard the 6th of his Paganinni Caprices (paganini etudes) mentioned yet and i think that deserves a spot on that list.  To play those runs of 10ths to be played at a presto you either need to have superhuman powers or have hands the size of Rach's or going a bit bigger even Liszt's (which the piece was written for).  People playing his pieces so loud, fast, and not to mention DRY, is the reason Liszt has the rep that he does.  One of the greatest composers not to mention the greatest pianist ever to live.  Ill leave you with a quote from Liszt "...My 40 years of pottering around with the piano have now made me much more concerned, not to torment the player unnecessarily, but to leave it to his discretion to produce the greatest possible effects of tone and strength through MODERATE EFFORT."  Not saying there arent many other pieces (mostly transcriptions) that are as difficult if not more, merely stating that the B minor sonata is GREATLY underestimated. 

[apion]

Brahm's Paganini Variations

I agree that the Brahms Paganini Variations are in the top 5 for solo piano; his two piano concerti are in the top 5 for non-solo.

[apion]

About Brahm's piano concerto op 73,

Apparently after he finished it, he wrote a letter stating
"I have just finished a tiny, tiny piano concerto with a tiny, tiny wisp of a scherzo".

I found that quite interesting.

It's opus 83, not 73.

[Skeptopotamus]

of tonal music almost definitely.

but not compared to modern stuff i'd say.  i can think of tons of pieces harder.


i stick by the Rzewski 8 hour poem.

[apion]

I think Tchaikovsky's First is a very tough one to master and play properly (all those double octaves!). Otherwise, the Chopin Etudes are among the hardest to play perfectly and beautifully, although they might not be the most technically challenging...
But above all, Mozart has to be the hardest to play in the intended manner...i think someone already said that. who agrees?

It really doesn't matter how touch the Tchaikovsky 1st is to play, because the first movement is a pile of crap (once you strip away the introduction). 

I can write a pile of crap that's extremely difficult - but so what?

[SteinwayTony]

It really doesn't matter how touch the Tchaikovsky 1st is to play, because the first movement is a pile of crap (once you strip away the introduction). 

I can write a pile of crap that's extremely difficult - but so what?

You're nuts.  Completely nuts.

If anything can keep my attention for twenty minutes, it's not crap.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

It really doesn't matter how touch the Tchaikovsky 1st is to play, because the first movement is a pile of crap (once you strip away the introduction). 

I can write a pile of crap that's extremely difficult - but so what?

A pile of crap? Honestly. May I have the pleasure of hearing a piece of yours that is better than the Tchaikowsky 1st? I am dying to hear one that is half as good as the Tchaikowsky 1st.

You don't have to like the piece, but I am sick of people on this (and other forums) saying things like 'such and such piece is a pile of crap'. There are pieces that I don't like, but I still respect them for what they are. Technically, there is no such thing as 'bad' music, because whether music is bad or not is based on opinion, not fact.

May I ask, what recording do you own of this piece? Could it be that you just have a lousy recording?

[Skeptopotamus]

i like the tchaikovsky 1- the whole thing.  I've got plenty of recordings, but prefer the rubinstein.


but everyone is entitled to their own opinion just as much as you.  Just maybe people should be a bit less candid. 

i like Herma ALOT.  most people dont.
i hate brahms.  most people dont.

everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how wrong they are. =P the tchai1 rox.

[apion]

A pile of crap? Honestly. May I have the pleasure of hearing a piece of yours that is better than the Tchaikowsky 1st? I am dying to hear one that is half as good as the Tchaikowsky 1st.

You don't have to like the piece, but I am sick of people on this (and other forums) saying things like 'such and such piece is a pile of crap'. There are pieces that I don't like, but I still respect them for what they are. Technically, there is no such thing as 'bad' music, because whether music is bad or not is based on opinion, not fact.

May I ask, what recording do you own of this piece? Could it be that you just have a lousy recording?

I own over 10 recordings of this misfit (they will soon be for sale on eBay, BTW).

And I've studied the 1st movement at some length.  And I quit learning it when I realized that Tchaikovsky put all of his creative energy into the first 4 minutes, and said "hey, these initial 4 minutes are kick ass ..... I think I'll just coast for the remainder of the concerto ....." 

I feel sorry for any pianist that wastes his/her time on this abyssmal failure of a concerto.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

I own over 10 recordings of this misfit (they will soon be for sale on eBay, BTW).

And I've studied the 1st movement at some length.  And I quit learning it when I realized that Tchaikovsky put all of his creative energy into the first 4 minutes, and said "hey, these initial 4 minutes are kick ass ..... I think I'll just coast for the remainder of the concerto ....." 

I feel sorry for any pianist that wastes his/her time on this abyssmal failure of a concerto.

Hmm... Well, I respect your opinion, even though I can't say I agree with it. It is true that the introduction is the highlight of the concerto, but I wouldn't consider the rest to be an abysmal failure.

I assume you don't like the 2nd or 3rd movements either. (?)

[apion]

I assume you don't like the 2nd or 3rd movements either. (?)

Well, actually, mvts 2 and 3 are very good (it's the 1st movement that I have issues with).

Indeed, mvts 2 & 3 (together with the introduction to mvt 1) are the only things keeping this albatross afloat.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Well, actually, mvts 2 and 3 are very good (it's the 1st movement that I have issues with).

Indeed, mvts 2 & 3 (together with the introduction to mvt 1) are the only things keeping this albatross afloat.

Yes, I would say that the 2nd and 3rd movements are stronger than the first. I think it makes a difference, however, to see this concerto played live. When I first saw it (live), I really liked it. However, it might have been the fact that I was so impressed with the pianist, rather than the piece itself.

[SteinwayTony]

I own over 10 recordings of this misfit (they will soon be for sale on eBay, BTW).

And I've studied the 1st movement at some length.  And I quit learning it when I realized that Tchaikovsky put all of his creative energy into the first 4 minutes, and said "hey, these initial 4 minutes are kick ass ..... I think I'll just coast for the remainder of the concerto ....." 

I feel sorry for any pianist that wastes his/her time on this abyssmal failure of a concerto.

And I feel just as sorry for your abysmal failure to spell.

Let me know when you put the CDs up for auction; I'll be glad to take them.

[The Boogie Man.]

rhapsody in blue is hard....trust me there lol


i duno, some boogie can get VERY difficult, so is stride.

the walking bass boogies arnt espically hard, but your arms tires out.

plus hands are doing 2 diffrent things entirely.

[steinwayguy]

im going to have to say that MANY people REALLLLLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYY underestimate the Liszt B Minor Sonata. Although it sounds insanely difficult regardless. If you havent, Listen to it while looking at the score. you appreciate the pianist who is killing himself so much more! The overall technical demand for that piece is out of this world, you really have to be strong in so many different areas, then make it sound like you arent just pounding out some Liszt. I havent heard the 6th of his Paganinni Caprices (paganini etudes) mentioned yet and i think that deserves a spot on that list. To play those runs of 10ths to be played at a presto you either need to have superhuman powers or have hands the size of Rach's or going a bit bigger even Liszt's (which the piece was written for). People playing his pieces so loud, fast, and not to mention DRY, is the reason Liszt has the rep that he does. One of the greatest composers not to mention the greatest pianist ever to live. Ill leave you with a quote from Liszt "...My 40 years of pottering around with the piano have now made me much more concerned, not to torment the player unnecessarily, but to leave it to his discretion to produce the greatest possible effects of tone and strength through MODERATE EFFORT." Not saying there arent many other pieces (mostly transcriptions) that are as difficult if not more, merely stating that the B minor sonata is GREATLY underestimated.

The Liszt sonata is not even close to being the most difficult solo piece. It is way too pianistic.

It really doesn't matter how touch the Tchaikovsky 1st is to play, because the first movement is a pile of crap (once you strip away the introduction).

I can write a pile of crap that's extremely difficult - but so what?

Dead wrong.

rhapsody in blue is hard....trust me there lol


i duno, some boogie can get VERY difficult, so is stride.

the walking bass boogies arnt espically hard, but your arms tires out.

plus hands are doing 2 diffrent things entirely.

What?



And Ondine being the most difficult movement in Gaspard de la Nuit? Are you kidding me? No, no no no.


Also, Boulez is more difficult than any piece mentioned here except Sorabji.

[Skeptopotamus]

And I feel just as sorry for your abysmal failure to spell.

Let me know when you put the CDs up for auction; I'll be glad to take them.

eep!  steinwaytony- do you dislike someone more than me?

[ponecorleone]

i cant get ahold of any liszt b minor recordings

[xvimbi]

i cant get ahold of any liszt b minor recordings

You got to be kidding. There are probably literally hundreds. Your local music store likely has at least a dozen. For sure there are plenty on Amazon.

Or do you mean, you can't find anybody who would "lend" it to you?

[Lance Morrison]

The Liszt sonata is not even close to being the most difficult solo piece. It is way too pianistic.



Dead wrong.



What?



And Ondine being the most difficult movement in Gaspard de la Nuit? Are you kidding me? No, no no no.


Also, Boulez is more difficult than any piece mentioned here except Sorabji.

I'm glad to see someone mention Boulez. I'm assuming you're referring to his great 2nd piano sonata? These pieces are way above my ability, so I cannot account for their difficulty....but I'd just like to say that his 3rd sonata is one of my very favourite pieces, wish i owned the score

[SteinwayTony]

eep!  steinwaytony- do you dislike someone more than me?

Just because you made a fool of yourself attempting to spite me doesn't mean I dislike you.  I don't really need to say anything; you bring it on yourself.

[Skeptopotamus]

Well from what you just said it is obvious you dislike me.  Passive aggression requires passiveness.

[ralessi]

SteinwayGuy, In my opinion, all this dissonant atonal crap may be more difficult technically to play but wiht a piece like the Liszt sonata and others (Prokofiev Tocatta, Islamey, Gaspard) there are so many technical difficulties to overcome and then you have to make something of it.  A lot of those pieces like O.C. and Schoenberg stuff that are so atonal and everywhere nobody will know if you make mistakes and things unless they know the piece and even then its hard to tell...contemporary stuff thats just everywhere sucks....being a musician, i understand it more than the typical lamen so i appreciate it more than the average person who doesnt know music well, which is a reason i hate to play it unless its for competition or something.  people dont understand it and dont appreciate it, sure they will say WOW THAT WAS GREAT AND YOU'RE SO GOOD because you were going so fast and everywhere but i would rather play something that people will ejnoy listetning to as well as impress them with my lightning fast octaves! Also realize that i was not saying the B minor sonata is the hardest piece ever written for the piano...Liszt MOST DEFINATELY wrote more difficult pieces!

Cheers,
    Ricky

[Radix]

Boy, was that a risky thing to say!  Although I agree; there's not much atonal and dissonant music that I enjoy.

[maul]

I'd say the Rach 3. Definitely my favorite piece, although I've only finished the second movement.

[Lance Morrison]

I registered at this forum because i hoped there would be someone to talk about modern music with, and was encouraged by the sorabji thread.

i think it's mildly ridiculous that Schönberg and friends are still controversial, people have had nearly 100 years to digest it.

any music that is highly chromatic can be altered in any of number of ways and still sound similar. but the way I look at it is if you make a mistake you are diverting yourself from the journey the composer intended you to go on in that piece

arnold put more energy into his atonal works than most composers put into their tonal, especially works like pierrot lunaire. in such works, the atonality was contextual, meaning a system of atonality had to be generated for each piece. this was such an exausting process that he decided a system needed to be created that could be used for many pieces, and so we have serialism.  in my opinion, the development of serialism isn't nearly as significant as the actual application of it was. the fact that arnold and anton and alban and their decendents could write works within this restrictive system that sound so freely composed is awesome to me. I especially dig how berg and schönberg combined tonal elements with serialism in their later works.

im not a great musician, so maybe my opinion doesn't matter.....but people like gould and pollini were, and they both loved schoenberg dearly

[edited for politeness]

thinking more about difficult music, I must mention Ligeti's etudes. They were heavily inspired by Nancarrow's works for player piano, if that tells you anything of their
difficulty...

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Ligeti etudes, in my humble opinion, are sheer madness. I mean, seriously, in about 5 of them, I saw this dynamic - FFFFFFFF. Most obviously a joke. Unless you intend to break the piano.

[steinwayguy]

SteinwayGuy, In my opinion, all this dissonant atonal crap may be more difficult technically to play but wiht a piece like the Liszt sonata and others (Prokofiev Tocatta, Islamey, Gaspard) there are so many technical difficulties to overcome and then you have to make something of it. A lot of those pieces like O.C. and Schoenberg stuff that are so atonal and everywhere nobody will know if you make mistakes and things unless they know the piece and even then its hard to tell...contemporary stuff thats just everywhere sucks....being a musician, i understand it more than the typical lamen so i appreciate it more than the average person who doesnt know music well, which is a reason i hate to play it unless its for competition or something. people dont understand it and dont appreciate it, sure they will say WOW THAT WAS GREAT AND YOU'RE SO GOOD because you were going so fast and everywhere but i would rather play something that people will ejnoy listetning to as well as impress them with my lightning fast octaves! Also realize that i was not saying the B minor sonata is the hardest piece ever written for the piano...Liszt MOST DEFINATELY wrote more difficult pieces!

Cheers,
 Ricky

Prokofiev Toccata, Boulez.

Just because you can't understand a passage in Boulez with 14 voices in 6 different octaves doesn't mean it's not music. I'd say it's not only about 10 times harder than any piece you mentioned technically, but musically it's about 30 times harder.

If you play the piano to impress people, I have no respect for you. Personally, if I could play the Boulez 2nd sonata, and not just an approximation of the Boulez 2nd sonata (which seems to be what you would do), I would play it for everybody I knew. If they were mildly intelligent, they would appreciate it. If they were a musician, they would be fascinated by the intracicies in the music. I dont' give a damn, I can play Boulez!

Ligeti etudes, in my humble opinion, are sheer madness. I mean, seriously, in about 5 of them, I saw this dynamic - FFFFFFFF. Most obviously a joke. Unless you intend to break the piano.

Yeah, they're pretty ridiculous.

Also, "Ricky", it's spelled "definItely".

[Lance Morrison]

Steinway Guy, you seem to be familiar with the Boulez 2nd sonata, so I was wondering, do you think it would it be worth it to get the Pollini recording? I have the 3 Boulez sonatas on Naxos by Idil Biret, but something about #2 just isn't satisfying

[musik_man]

Prokofiev Toccata, Boulez.

Just because you can't understand a passage in Boulez with 14 voices in 6 different octaves doesn't mean it's not music. I'd say it's not only about 10 times harder than any piece you mentioned technically, but musically it's about 30 times harder.

If you play the piano to impress people, I have no respect for you. Personally, if I could play the Boulez 2nd sonata, and not just an approximation of the Boulez 2nd sonata (which seems to be what you would do), I would play it for everybody I knew. If they were mildly intelligent, they would appreciate it. If they were a musician, they would be fascinated by the intracicies in the music. I dont' give a ***, I can play Boulez!

Also, "Ricky", it's spelled "definItely".

I'm a mildly intelligent musician, and I don't appreciate the Boulez sonata.  I bet that 90% of mildly intelligent musicians would agree with me.  Atonal music is just terrible in my opinion, and I can't see how anyone could enjoy it, but I'm still not going to insult those who do like it, or speak to them in a disgustingly patronizing way.  Just because someone has a radically different opinion than yours doesn't mean you need to make a scathing sarcastic response filled with little attacks on that person.

And correcting another posters grammatical mistakes isn't necessary.

BTW Has anyone else noticed that SteinwayGuy and SteinwayTony have similar names and opinions.  I have a hard time remembering which is which.

[ralessi]

Prokofiev Toccata, Boulez.

Just because you can't understand a passage in Boulez with 14 voices in 6 different octaves doesn't mean it's not music. I'd say it's not only about 10 times harder than any piece you mentioned technically, but musically it's about 30 times harder.

If you play the piano to impress people, I have no respect for you. Personally, if I could play the Boulez 2nd sonata, and not just an approximation of the Boulez 2nd sonata (which seems to be what you would do), I would play it for everybody I knew. If they were mildly intelligent, they would appreciate it. If they were a musician, they would be fascinated by the intracicies in the music. I dont' give a ***, I can play Boulez!



Yeah, they're pretty ridiculous.

Also, "Ricky", it's spelled "definItely".

First thing's first. Where do you come off telling me what kind of musician I am? Maybe if you werent so worried about assuming what kind of musicians other's were, you could learn your beloved Boulez Sonata.  If you have heard me play that's one thing, but you havent.  I would also love for you to tell me when I said that the atonal stuff wasnt music? I neither said nor implied it.  I am also curious to know how you figure that i only play to impress people?  I was merely discussing how an audience reacts to one's musicianship and technique as a pianist as well enjoy the music they are listening to.  If you are good pianist, 99% of the time there is going to be at least SOMEONE who is somewhat impressed in an audience.  Impressing someone and/or getting positive feedback is DEFINITELY a confidence boost and ultimately helps one's growth as a musician no matter who you are.  Furthermore, I would REALLY like you to go and play an hour or so of this "30 times harder than the Liszt Sonata, or Islamey"-atonal stuff at a retirement home, or for the older people who go to the sunday afternoon recitals at whatever concert hall is around.  I am sure that you will get RAVE reviews and they wil LOVE the 38 voices in 58 different octaves.  Not every concert you play is for musicians with a college education...come to think of it, most of them dont enjoy listening to this stuff.  Everyone has their own opinion, i gave mine and you bashed it and insulted me.  Obviously by getting a reply agreeing with me within hours, my reply wasnt completely out of left field.  You have your opinions about everything and i respect that...well i did, and oh yeah...if you would please post up the recording of you playing that Liszt B minor sonata, i would really appreciate it.  Cant wait to hear it! 

Cheers,
Ricky