World's hardest piece?

[Lance Morrison]

SteinwayGuy, In my opinion, all this dissonant atonal crap may be more difficult technically to play but wiht a piece like the Liszt sonata and others (Prokofiev Tocatta, Islamey, Gaspard) there are so many technical difficulties to overcome and then you have to make something of it...

I would try not starting off calling the music crap; that invites hostility

[thracozaag]

And Ondine being the most difficult movement in Gaspard de la Nuit? Are you kidding me? No, no no no.

  Actually, I think it is.

koji (STSD)

[SteinwayTony]

And correcting another posters grammatical mistakes isn't necessary.

BTW Has anyone else noticed that SteinwayGuy and SteinwayTony have similar names and opinions.  I have a hard time remembering which is which.

That's because he is my alter ego.  Hmm, maybe it's a Steinway thing.

Oh, and oddly enough, I'm a stickler for proper for grammar and spelling.  There's a reason that there's a correct way to say and spell things...

[Motrax]

I hate Steinways. 

An important point this topic brings up is a whether a musician must play to what people already enjoy, or play music that they will eventually appreciate over time (and I don't just refer to atonal music here).  While Rachmaninoff was still alive, he wrote a small essay for a magazine called The Etude about ten factors to being a good pianist. One of these factors was "Playing to Educate the Public." Rachmaninoff explained that although a concert virtuoso giving a recital in Carnegie Hall should expect a certain level of musical understanding from the audience, it is equally important that those who have not reached a concert level should play music which, although still worth playing, is more accessible to their peers. I agree with this sentiment - playing Boulez' Second Sonata for someone who isn't familiar with classical music and demanding they understand it is similar to demanding that someone understand quantum theory after one or two explanations. It's simply absurd.  However, if you just have to play atonal music for people, it would do well to explain the 12 tone scale, and furthermore explain exactly where you find art in the music you play. Personally, I find very little music in atonal pieces - but I do understand why other people would enjoy it since the art of atonalism has been explained to me a number of times from a number of perspectives.

Hope I've made myself clear.

-Motrax

[vis]

I'd say the bartok concertos are some of the hardest. Of course that does not take into consideration transcriptions for piano. But those really aren't piano literature. Usually fast modern works in general are more difficult than romantic works.  At least you can make some tonal-functional sense of the Rach3 or the Brahms concertos.

[BoliverAllmon]

memorization wise, I think bach can be the hardest. Technically and musically can be pretty tough, but not the hardest there. I memorized the shostakovich 2nd PC mvt 1 with relative ease, bach on the other hand has never come easy.

boliver

[steinwayguy]

That's because he is my alter ego. Hmm, maybe it's a Steinway thing.

Oh, and oddly enough, I'm a stickler for proper for grammar and spelling. There's a reason that there's a correct way to say and spell things...

I thought he was my alter ego. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Can you explain why you think Ondine is harder than Scarbo? That is the first time i ever heard it, and now 2 people are saying it. what.

[apion]

Can you explain why you think Ondine is harder than Scarbo? That is the first time i ever heard it, and now 2 people are saying it. what.

Yes, "Ondine" is both musically and technically more demanding than "Scarbo."   

[steinwayguy]

Yes, "Ondine" is both musically and technically more demanding than "Scarbo."

I strongly disagree, and point out that he asked "why".

[thracozaag]

I strongly disagree, and point out that he asked "why".

  Scarbo's harder to learn intially, but Ondiine (for me at least), is much more difficult to pull off.  And if you're on a bad piano...you're dead meat.

koji (STSD)

[presto agitato]

The hardest piece is: Something that you can not or you will never play.

As simple as that. I know guys who can play Chopin´s Op 10-1 without problem but those guys cant play a fugue by Bach.

Did you get the point?

[ralessi]

LOUD AND CLEAR!  I am in my second semester at college and last semester Learned the Liszt F minor Transcendental, and the Scriabin etude in D#minor but JUST NOW am closing up my Bach P&F as well as the second and third movements of the Tempest sonata.  I HATE preludes and fugues, they're so hard for me to memorize because they go nowhere.  They have a beginning, middle, and end.  they have a theme and sometimes another theme, and just go and go and go and then *TONIC CHORD*, YOU'RE DONE.  cant handle it.  or the beethoven sonatas where the quarte note is at 50...horrible, all you can do is sit there and think while waiting for the next chord.  THINKING IS BAD WHILE PERFORMING!!!!  Too much time to think leads to internal conflicts such as ....WHERE DO I GO NEXT? WHAT IF I FORGET WHAT TO PLAY....MAYBE I ALREADY DID!?!!? DID I?!??! OH NO THERE IT IS.  Even though you know exactly wat you are playing.  They're all just distractions you dont need.  Since i went off on a tangent il leave it at that...(Steinwayguy did i spell tangent right?)

Cheers!
Ricky

[bachmaninov]

Schumann Toccata anyone? That just might be the most exhausting piece i've ever...heard...seen...whatever 

Liszt Sonata in Bminor? That thing just goes on.. and on.. and on.. and on...
Liszt Transcendental Etudes...Feux Follets to be specific

Scriabin Sonata No. 5 ?!?!?!!!

There are others, i just can't think of any right now =p.

[The Boogie Man.]

Quote from: The Boogie Man. on February 27, 2005, 11:22:51 PM
rhapsody in blue is hard....trust me there lol


i duno, some boogie can get VERY difficult, so is stride.

the walking bass boogies arnt espically hard, but your arms tires out.

plus hands are doing 2 diffrent things entirely.

What?

what...what?!?

if you understand me there :p

[mikeyg]

Reminiscences de Don Juan (Mozart-Liszt) perhaps?  I haven't tried it but it certainly sounds intimidating.

[m]

Reminiscences de Don Juan (Mozart-Liszt) perhaps?  I haven't tried it but it certainly sounds intimidating.

Throughout my life I played most of the pieces listed here, including Rachmaninov 3, Brahms 2, Tchaikowsky 1, Chopin almost all etudes, Liszt Feux Follets and Don Juan, Schumann Toccata, Brahms-Paganini, Islamey, Ravel Gaspard, etc.
For me, by far the hardest piece I've ever touched is Mendelssohn--Rachmaninov Scherzo from "Midsummernight dreams". Everybody I ever met who plays this piece seems to agree.

[Radix]

Has nobody mentioned the fugue from the Hammerklavier?  It's nightmarishly difficult!

[bachmaninov]

quick question! In which movement is this so called "nightmarish fugue" in Hammerklavier

I have a recording of it, but I've been to lazy to sit down and listen to it.

[Lance Morrison]

4th....it supposedly doesn't sound as hard as it is...i'd recommend you hear the whole piece (other than worthless second movement.....well i guess it's not worthless as i am but it is dwarved by the other movements)

[apion]

Has nobody mentioned the fugue from the Hammerklavier?  It's nightmarishly difficult!

I think it's been mentioned, but I agree that it's treacherously demanding.

[m]

In fact, I know many pianists who would agree that fugato from last movement of Beethoven Sonata No 28 op.101 is more demanding than from Hammerklavier.

[Lance Morrison]

In fact, I know many pianists who would agree that fugato from last movement of Beethoven Sonata No 28 op.101 is more demanding than from Hammerklavier.

I prefer this fuga........but is it really more difficult?

[Radix]

In my opinion, no.  It isn't easy, but it comes to the fingers much more quickly than the Hammerklavier's.

[Alde]

Soraji's Opus clavicembalisticum

[nejc_pianoforte]

For me is the hardest and the beautifulest piece on the world Rahmaninov 3. and Brahms 2. But I heard, that the hardest is definetly Brahms 2. But it is funny: Stravinky said (after he composed the Petruscka): The piano is a drum!!!!

[bachmaninov]

Where can i hear some of Sorabji's works? Do they have albums? Is there anywhere i can download his Opus Clavicubalisticum whatever....

[stevie]

Hardest pieces I've ever had to perform:

Reger Variations and Fugue on a theme of Bach
Nancarrow Tango?
Scriabin 8th Sonata
Scriabin 7th Sonata
Godowsky Etudes

about the godowsky - when and which?

[stevie]

First, defining "hardest piece" should come beforehand. If "hardest" mean the most notes and the most finger-wrenching piece, I would say one of the prokofiev sonatas.  And some of the Chopin etudes are quite difficult.
How about the Godowsky transcriptions? I never played those but  the reputation of it is infamous.
On the other hand, if "hardest" is defined as difficulty of making the music perfectly beautiful, relatively simple pieces such as Mozart sonatas or Bach partitas turns arduous.

true hotaik, you display impressive wisdom

have you changed you mind on the prokofiev sonatas though?

[shoenberg3]

wow, i don't even remember posting here.

And yes, I changed my opinion about Prokofiev. Back then, I thought he was the most impossible thing.

[ahinton]

Where can i hear some of Sorabji's works? Do they have albums? Is there anywhere i can download his Opus Clavicubalisticum whatever....

There are plenty. Just write to us at
sorabji-archive@lineone.net and we will email you all the necessary information.

Thanks.

Best,

Alistair

[mikey6]

anyone mention scarlatti? some of his sontas are fiendish! as difficult (if not more) than Mozart! - on a purely technical, getting right notes point of view.

[instrumentaliszt]

Stravinsky's Russian Dance from Petrouska are very challenging.

Personally anything with double notes gives me trouble.

(i think the creator of the topic only meant it in the sense of physical effort)

regarding to this the russian dance is only half challenging as the last movement "la semaine grasse" (provided that you have the wrist for the the octaves in the russian dance)


keyword double notes: feux follets really fast...

[arch0wl]

Since anyone can write an impossible piece, I think the easiest way to regulate what would be the hardest piece is by restricting it to the hardest performed piece.

[JCarey]

In my opinion, the hardest PERFORMABLE piece is Barlow's Cogluotobusisletmesi. It is half an hour long of the most BRUTAL complexity I've ever seen. I would say that Barlow's piece pretty much blows any work by Finnissy, Ferneyhough, Flynn, etc. out of the water in terms of sheer difficulty.





I also have a recording of it, and it sounds quite nice.

[emmdoubleew]

Chopsticks.

Or the Rach 3 played with only one hand.

[ahinton]

In my opinion, the hardest PERFORMABLE piece is Barlow's Cogluotobusisletmesi. It is half an hour long of the most BRUTAL complexity I've ever seen. I would say that Barlow's piece pretty much blows any work by Finnissy, Ferneyhough, Flynn, etc. out of the water in terms of sheer difficulty.





I also have a recording of it, and it sounds quite nice.

I haven't seen the entire piece and appreciate your offering a sample here for consideration, but I am inclined to conclude from this extract that, in terms of difficulties alone (and this is the subject here), there is little to compare to the rhythmic complexities (or indeed numbers of notes per square millimetre) in certain of Finnissy's compositions, although the diatonic background to the Barlow certainly gives it at the very least a curiosity value, since one common expectation of any piece of present-day or recent "complexity" is that it would at least be atonal. Of course my remarks here are based only on the extract shown; a look through the entire piece may give an entirely different impresssion. Is the recording you have the one by Herbert Henck? (which I have not heard)...

Best,

Alistair

[sevencircles]

Anyone have a recording of Cogluotobusisletmesi to upload?

[ahinton]

Anyone have a recording of Cogluotobusisletmesi to upload?

Herbert Henck's LP recording of it on the Wergo label was apparently released in 1982, but I've not even heard it, let alone have a copy...

Best,

Alistair

[sevencircles]

I se

Herbert Henck's LP recording of it on the Wergo label was apparently released in 1982, but I've not even heard it, let alone have a copy...

Best,

Alistair

I searched for it on both cdnow and Towerrecords but found nothing

It seems more interesting then any of Finnesy´s cacophonies when one look at the score so it would be very interesting to hear what I good pianist could make of it.

anyone have a midifile of it?

[ahinton]

I se
I searched for it on both cdnow and Towerrecords but found nothing

It seems more interesting then any of Finnesy´s cacophonies when one look at the score so it would be very interesting to hear what I good pianist could make of it.

anyone have a midifile of it?

I would think it highly unlikely that Tower Records or any other similar retailer would still have any 1982 recording in stock, especially if it is in LP format; I have no evidence that it has been reissued on CD.

Best,

Alistair

[pianowelsh]

There are VERY many HARD pieces in the world many of them sound awfull! and soem of them are deliberately written to be obtuse of difficult to listen to and play! Frankly i dont see much point in them - but that is just my opinion. There are however many beautiful pieces from each era which could rank up there in the most difficult stakes.ie Goldberg Variations, Beethovens Diabelli or op111 ect, pieces like Schumanns etudes symphonic, Brahms op5 sonata etc etc etc (there are a proliferation in the romantic era) and then into the 20thC there are works like Gaspard, petrouska, prokofiev 6th sonata (many hundreds of well know and lesser know pieces - theres generally a reason why they are lesser known - difficulty is often a factor) In the 21st C there is such a spectrum too with works like boulez sonatas, Ives etc etc etc   - In fact i would go so far as to say there are probably more extremely Hard pieces than can ever be learnt by one pianist the literature of them is vast - a downside of there being so many pianist-composers!

[yuc4h]

This is what I call real music

page 1:
https://bwallace1701.zoto.com/img/original/1c0a23aa9b948c26ea633a4b4d5049f1-.jpg

page 2:
https://bwallace1701.zoto.com/img/original/7f412a91a0fcacf258781f59d96d7e9b-.jpg

I especially like the 65536th note in the beginning by the way, how do you pronounce that in british? quasihemihemidemihemihemihemidemisemidemisemidemisemihemidemi
semisemihemidemisemidemihemidemisemisemiquaver? gaah, you british are so difficult

[ahinton]

In the 21st C there is such a spectrum too with works like boulez sonatas, Ives etc etc etc

Which century? Boulez's three piano sonatas date from the 1940s and 1950s; Ives's three date from much earlier than that! In any case, Ives died almost half a century before the "21st C" began!

Come on, "pianowelsh"; let's get some history right!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

This is what I call real music

page 1:
https://bwallace1701.zoto.com/img/original/1c0a23aa9b948c26ea633a4b4d5049f1-.jpg

page 2:
https://bwallace1701.zoto.com/img/original/7f412a91a0fcacf258781f59d96d7e9b-.jpg

I especially like the 65536th note in the beginning by the way, how the hell do you pronounce that in british? quasihemihemidemihemihemihemidemisemidemisemidemisemihemidemi
semisemihemidemisemidemihemidemisemisemiquaver? gaah, you british are so difficult.

Yes, very funny, I'm sure; we've many of us seen this non-Mozartean musical joke before. Personally, I wouldn't care to pronounce anything about it in "british" (whatever that may be).

OK, joke over; let's now return - if we must - to serious consideration of the thread topic by mention of real pieces of piano music.

Best,

Alistair

[notturno]

Only a slight digression.  A pianist named Daan Vandewalle lists both the Opus Clavicembalisticum and the Cogluotobusisletmesi in his repetoire.
His rep is listed at:
https://www.daanvandewalle.com/repertoire.html

Has anyone heard him perform, and care to comment?

[panic]

Actually I have a serious question on Finnissy and the New Complexity school as a whole. A lot has been said about the complexity of the work and I realize I am very ignorant and unknowledgeable about its exact nature. How do Finnissy and similar composers manufacture these pieces? How do they choose exactly what each note will be, and how much would be lost by changing notes around? The music of a lot of these composers just seems kind of randomly plotted to my ignorant mind and I am curious about this.

[musicsdarkangel]

a few thoughts

1.  I agree with Koji, the Ondine is definitely harder than Scarbo....believe it or not.  I'm learning this piece

2.  Why do people say Islamey?  Yes, it is difficult.  It is comparible to La Campanella, but both of these are difficult short pieces.  You might as well put Feux Follet up there if you put these two up there.

3.  I would rank Gaspard de la Nuit as one of the hardest in common repitoire, as well as the Liszt Sonata, and I agree with Paul, the Rachmaninoff Rhapsody is incredibly tricky, deseptively difficult.  There are tons of trick bags in that (i'm also in the process of learning this). 

On a tier higher than this, I would put the Busoni Concerto and Barber Sonata.  These are just INSANE.

[musicsdarkangel]

  Scarbo's harder to learn intially, but Ondiine (for me at least), is much more difficult to pull off.  And if you're on a bad piano...you're dead meat.

koji (STSD)

Yep, Ondine requires such sensitivity.  It has technicality combined with the sensitivity of Mozart.... the toughest of both worlds.

Ondine is so difficult to master

[cfortunato]

My cat does wonderful atonal stuff.