keeping a relaxed wrist in chords and octaves

[keyboardclass]

Because it is an essential etude. It is actually an indicator of your whole finger technique at ANY tempo.

There's any number of Cramer or Mosheles etudes you could say the same about.  At 1/2 speed op 10 no 1 is not a concert etude.  Chopin was anything but pedestrian!

[p2u_]

There's any number of Cramer or Mosheles etudes you could say the same about.  At 1/2 speed op 10 no 1 is not a concert etude.  Chopin was anything but pedestrian!

OK. I see we are getting nowhere with this. Let's get back to the topic at hand: "keeping a relaxed wrist in chords and octaves".

Contemporaries report that Franz Liszt shook them (octaves) out of his sleeves. That is about the only description we have. If you, as a scholar, were to judge from this description, what kind of movement would that be?
P.S.: While deciding, please don't hurt yourself.

[keyboardclass]

It's standard octaves from the wrist à la Kullack (read his preface).

[p2u_]

It's standard octaves from the wrist à la Kullack (read his preface).

I can hardly imagine Liszt, the father of all pianists, would be that stupid. One just can't play the octave passages in Liszt's works like that as they should be played.

Besides, if you try it, there's no way you can "shake the octaves out of your sleeves" with such an approach; just put something on with long sleeves and try it before a mirror. James Ching's (the author of "Piano playing, a practical method") oblique whole arm touch (diagonally forward into the key from the shoulder) would be far more approriate to fit such a description...

Paul

[keyboardclass]

I have quite a few of Ching's books - not impressed.  Speeded up, wrist octaves become a vibrato - no big secret there.

[p2u_]

I have quite a few of Chang's books - not impressed.  Speeded up, wrist octaves become a vibrato - no big secret there.

You have not addressed my point: Kullak's movement does not fit the description of how Liszt played according to his contemporaries. If you put some cards or other light objects in your sleeves, no way the cards will fall out unless there is some kind of forward movement involved. Ching's movement fits that description, and so does the movement N. describes in this topic.

Paul

[keyboardclass]

I've written a poem:

For Liszt you practice 8 hours a day
And the reward is pretty bland.
Chopin asks just 3 hours
To see the world in a grain of sand!

Here's Boris Berman on octaves:

When a group of repeated chords (or octaves) is to be played at a fast tempo,...the chords are usually played as if generated by a single physical impulse on the first chord; the rest of the chords are played by a "ricochet" bouncing of the wrist.

[vertigo1974]

I've written a poem:

For Liszt you practice 8 hours a day
And the reward is pretty bland.
Chopin asks just 3 hours
To see the world in a grain of sand!

Here's Boris Berman on octaves:

When a group of repeated chords (or octaves) is to be played at a fast tempo,...the chords are usually played as if generated by a single physical impulse on the first chord; the rest of the chords are played by a "ricochet" bouncing of the wrist.

The only thing keyboardklass actually can do to a high standard is troll. At that he is a master. Unlike his professed one "touch-fits-all piano" technique, he has a number of different trolling techniques.

You're witnessing one of the most effective; Make a controversial statement, wait for a response, and then only answer part of that response with some quote that may or may not be real, but is most definitely out of context. Sit back, and wait for an infuriated response. Repeat ad infinitum...

A master at work!

[p2u_]

I've written a poem:

For Liszt you practice 8 hours a day
And the reward is pretty bland.
Chopin asks just 3 hours
To see the world in a grain of sand!

I find Liszt more natural than Chopin, by the way. I don't need 8 hours and I find the results very rewarding.

Here's Boris Berman on octaves:

When a group of repeated chords (or octaves) is to be played at a fast tempo,...the chords are usually played as if generated by a single physical impulse on the first chord; the rest of the chords are played by a "ricochet" bouncing of the wrist.

Nice description, but personally I don't really understand such phrases. You could end up hurt if you do not interpret that correctly. Here's one who knew how to do octaves, and it certainly does not look like Kullack: The young Emil Gilels plays Tchaikovsky, recorded live in Paris, Théatre des Champs-Elysées, on 19 June 1959 (starting at 32:41)

Paul

[keyboardclass]

Here's Valerie Boissier from her notes:

'[Liszt] was not satisfied "You must give more time to octave practice.  Your hands are rather weak.  In order to strengthen them I want you to drill your wrists every day,..." '  

Hmm.., I seem to have attracted another stalker!

[pts1]

I can speak to this octave business, since I've never had much problem with any octave passages.

For me, it came about as a kid... 15, I think... when I became absolutely obsessed with Horowitz's Hungarian Rhapsody #6. I even timed the sections with a stop watch and practiced until I matched his speed! LOL

As most pianists do -- and wrongly -- is I made a hell of a lot of effort, hitting the keys, using a lot of arm, wrist, etc.

Eventually, I'd simply wear myself out, have tired or somewhat hurt muscles, I'd recuperate, and do the same thing HARDER!

After a number of cycles of this nonsense, it dawned on me that Horowitz was not banging the hell out of the piano, and that the octaves had a melody, and that the top notes were more pronounced than the bottom.

So I played the octave part with both hands as I'd really like it to sound, a melody with musical elements -- duh! -- and this changed everything.

An octave was a melody with a lower note as the accompaniment -- in the case of HR6 -- and so I abandoned the muscular hitting approach, and went back to fingers.

FINGERS on the key, supplemented by wrist, forearm and upper arm, played so the effort was very easy and very relaxed and very minimal.

Its kind of a vibration which starts on the key pulling the key with fingers and necessary assistance from higher in the playing "chain" of piano playing muscles.

In fact, when playing or practicing the HR6, I do not even allow the key to come all the way up so as to decrease the distance I need to depress the key, and it can't be much more than 3/8ths of an inch.

Of course when more volume is required, it takes more effort, but you can get quite a big sound ON THE KEY.

And that's the secret... tiny movement on the key adding or subtracting necessary playing elements for volume/sound desired.

HR6, BTW, is different levels of both speed and volume, and its not until the last page that you need to really ramp it up, and even then that is relative to what is played before.

Horowitz does not bang through the whole thing, because its not realistic or necessary.
He starts piano, and "terraces" the volume up by degrees. It is not but the last few chords that are crashing, after all the "real octave work" is done.

The Funerailles is also great for learning this technique -- primarily left hand, which I also was obsessed with!LOL

To some up, I do not think of octaves as "octaves", but as a melody with and accompaniment i.e. the lower note of the octave, and distribute the "work" among all playing parts, fingers setting the structure for everything else.

IOW, octaves should be "music".

[keyboardclass]

IOW, octaves should be "music".

Here's Louis Kentner:

'In this type of technique [shoulders], movements as such play a less strictly defined part.  We may assume that the loosely lying hand, the elastically unimpeded arm and the naturally placed fingers will find their own best, least strenuous way of moving.  It is therefore more important to acheive this elasticity and feeling of ease, this internal muscular harmony than to practice movements.'

[p2u_]

FINGERS on the key, supplemented by wrist, forearm and upper arm, played so the effort was very easy and very relaxed and very minimal.

Its kind of a vibration which starts on the key pulling the key with fingers and necessary assistance from higher in the playing "chain" of piano playing muscles.

That's it. I think that's also basically the organisation Gilels has, although it looks more impressive with him than words can describe, of course, because his idea of "necessary assistance from higher" is dictated by the very impressive task at hand of creating that big golden sound (his personal trade mark) in a rather large hall. I also think Liszt played with such principles and not in Kullack-style at all.

Paul

[keyboardclass]

I also think Liszt played with such principles and not in Kullack-style at all.

You do realize Kullack was also a pupil of Czerny?

[p2u_]

Here's Valerie Boissier from her notes:

'[Liszt] was not satisfied "You must give more time to octave practice.  Your hands are rather weak.  In order to strengthen them I want you to drill your wrists every day,..."

I find Madame Boissier an unreliable source, but that's my personal opinon.

Here's Louis Kentner:

'In this type of technique [shoulders], movements as such play a less strictly defined part.  We may assume that the loosely lying hand, the elastically unimpeded arm and the naturally placed fingers will find their own best, least strenuous way of moving.  It is therefore more important to acheive this elasticity and feeling of ease, this internal muscular harmony than to practice movements.'

Don't you think you are contradicting yourself when you quote this (I mean in comparison with what you wrote earlier)?

You do realize Kullack was also a pupil of Czerny?

I certainly realize that, but I see no connection anyway. Liszt liberated himself from the Czerny school and opened completely new horizons for anybody appearing after him. That's also something I realize.

Paul

[keyboardclass]

Don't you think you are contradicting yourself when you quote this (I mean in comparison with what you wrote earlier)?

You'd need to quote me on that.

Have you a page no. for Ching?  I've got the book.

[p2u_]

You'd need to quote me on that.

Have you a page no. for Ching?  I've got the book.

In my last post I was not referring to what you said about Ching, who was not a proponent of the weight school. Kentner was. That's why I do not exactly understand what a quote by Kentner has to add to the principles of Mr. Kullack.
P.S.: I haven't got Ching at home. I read it at the library quite a long time ago and it made a very great impression on me. Just scan the book for "oblique arm touch" (he really liked that principle a lot and tried to make a case for it). I've seen that movement with many pianists from the Russian school, by the way.

Paul

[keyboardclass]

Found it.  He calls it an 'oblique acting whole-arm movement'.  It has a diagram which is more or less the same as Fink's below.  And, as I've said previously, I use it exclusively for 'up' chords.

[p2u_]

It has a diagram which is more or less the same as Fink's below.

Rather less than more as I remember; there are some details that don't fit the image I recall. Is there any way for you to post the real thing (by Ching I mean)?

Paul

[keyboardclass]

Not as easily done as you may think - but here they are:

[p2u_]

Not as easily done as you may think - but here they are:

Thanks. As we see, the devil is in the details. It has to be exactly right not to waste any energy (= potential for speed). Unfortunately, the picture does not really show the diagonal forward action (no  friction at the key as Finch claims). And the movement in the picture is also exaggarated (too big), of course for educational purposes. The movement itself is very, very small. I've witnessed Lazar Berman play Liszt's "Orage" like this in a private setting. I thought the ceiling was going to come down any minute. Very dirty, but just right to express the quadrophonic sound of a thunderstorm in the Swiss Alps...

Paul

[keyboardclass]

The diagrams show the same coordination.  In both the elbow ends up further forward and the hand further down and forward (though in Ching's the anatomically impossible happens - the elbow gets lower).

[p2u_]

The diagrams show the same coordination.

Different perception again. In Finch, I personally see a stretched-out and slightly turned arm as a result of this movement, which is not part of the coordination Ching describes. Are you sure you picked the best picture to demonstrate Ching's movement? I thought there were better ones.

Paul

[keyboardclass]

Of course it's more stretched - it starts out at an obtuse angle and forward upper arm.  Ching starts with a right angle/vertical upper arm.  This is Ching's only figure in the passage.

[p2u_]

This is Ching's only figure in the passage.

Passage? He goes on for pages and pages, probably in other places in the book. Well, whatever. I'll see if I can get hold of an electronic version myself to refresh my failing memory. Thanks anyway.

Paul

[keyboardclass]

In the entire 11 page chapter the only anatomical figures are this one and a hand holding a ball.  The other figures are tables.

[nyiregyhazi]

Not as easily done as you may think - but here they are:

Neither of these diagrams appears to present anything physically possible. It's like they have forgotten that from a normal position, the forearm's path of motion from the the elbow joint is notably diagonal. Neither picture looks quite right to me. Why (and even how) can the upper arm be getting lifted up in Finks? Surely it's a simple matter of conceiving greater length between shoulder and hand- then straightening into that? That allows a very basic mindset to produce what might otherwise have seemed to be a rather complex coordination of things. Those diagrams look like they are both illustrating something that is altogether anatomically impossible.

[p2u_]

Neither of these diagrams appears to present anything physically possible.

Here's Richter practicing (not playing) Liszt. There you will see what I am talking about. Diagonally forward into the key. Rather violent.

Paul

[nyiregyhazi]

When a group of repeated chords (or octaves) is to be played at a fast tempo,...the chords are usually played as if generated by a single physical impulse on the first chord; the rest of the chords are played by a "ricochet" bouncing of the wrist.

While keyboardclass has a regular habit of foisting quotes into a context that they were never intended to be applied to, I wouldn't agree with the poster who referred to that regarding this particular instance. I think this one is pretty much self-contained, rather than likely to have meant something altogether different. However, Berman is speaking from a very subjective viewpoint. If you don't bother to mention that it's the thumb and finger which must repel the hand and wrist from the keys (if there's to be a possibility of speed) there's a major omission from what makes it work. Time after time we hear explanations that casually omit the single most important issue- creating a bounce away via the fingers. It's too slow to actively raise the wrist and then actively try to press it back down. Without the fingers doing their thing, bouncing of the wrist will never function well (especially if the player is trying to force it to occur). Personally, I'm becoming increasibly convinced that the overwhelming majority of wrist movement is just a passive response, in a healthy and effective technique. I'm not ruling out any value in moments of more active instigation, but I think talking as if wrist action is the instigator of bouncing is woefully missing the point of what actually functions effectively.

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's Richter practicing (not playing) Liszt. There you will see what I am talking about. Diagonally forward into the key. Rather violent.

Paul

Sure, I think I see what they're trying to allude to. I'm just surprised by how poorly the diagrams represent it. I think it's much the same as what I mentioned in my blog post- but with a more active arm push. I don't like how Fink talks about keeping the wrist stationary. I think there should almost always be a tiny trace of the forward/upward arc in the wrist. If not, it's likely that the wrist has been locked into immobility with tension- rather than that a sensitive balance has been found.

[keyboardclass]

Here ya go.  Two pictures from the 'arm-touch' chapter.  Even closer to Fink if you ask me.

[keyboardclass]

While keyboardclass has a regular habit of foisting quotes into a context that they were never intended to be applied to,

Calling me a liar again?  Just can't face the truth can you?  Hate to see you delusions blown out the water? 

[nyiregyhazi]

Calling me a liar again?  Just can't face the truth can you?  Hate to see you delusions blown out the water? 

I am not going to fuel trolling. I'll just remind you that nobody has called you a liar. Ironically, portraying myself as having done so illustrates the point that I was making perfectly. However. I'm done with anything off topic now, thank you.

[keyboardclass]

I am not going to fuel trolling. I'll just remind you that nobody has called you a liar. Ironically, portraying myself as having done so illustrates the point that I was making perfectly. However. I'm done with anything off topic now, thank you.

Slag off and run?  Coward.  Come up with just one quote to support your lie!

[p2u_]

Here ya go.  Two pictures from the 'arm-touch' chapter.  Even closer to Fink if you ask me.

Oh! Thank you for those. This actually proves another point I made earlier: In my mind, the pictures were better than they actually were. This proves that accounts by others of what someone did at at certain time may not be what actually happened, especially if the account was written later. They may also (like me in this case) have made up their own version. That's one of the reasons I am very, very sceptic about history, notes, sources, letters etc. as a guide to what we are supposed to do now...

Paul

[keyboardclass]

This actually proves another point I made earlier: In my mind, the pictures were better than they actually were. This proves that accounts by others of what someone did at at certain time may not be what actually happened, especially if the account was written later.

Argue against that!?  Jeez.

[p2u_]

Argue against that!?  Jeez.

Actually it was you who required more of a "scholar" approach, while you proved in the process that you have found your master in that respect. The conclusion I wrote in my previous post is part of why that is not the best way to determine what we are supposed to do now. What's wrong with that?

Paul

[pts1]

Keybord and Nyireg

In looking up posts related to the subjects we've all been discussing, I noticed you two
fellows have been arguing and insulting each other literally for YEARS!

You guys might as well be in a bad marriage, in which the only attention available from your partner is negative attention, so you choose to give and take, since its "better than nothing".

One says "tomaeto" and so the other says "tomahto".

You're both equally to blame, and haven't you figured out yet that you're never going to agree?

If you did... it would basically end your "relationship".

You could save a lot of space and killing good feedback from others if you'd simply reply to one another like squabbling kids:

"Is too!"

"Is not!"

"Is too!"

"Is not!"

Yes... yes... there... there... I know, its not you who started it... ITS HIM!

That's all I have to say.

Please, do continue...

[thalbergmad]

You're both equally to blame, and haven't you figured out yet that you're never going to agree?

it is true that they would not agree on the colour of dog poo, but for me, the exchanges can brighten up this forum which on occasions can get a little dry.

Thal

[marik1]

I've witnessed Lazar Berman play Liszt's "Orage" like this in a private setting. I thought the ceiling was going to come down any minute. Very dirty, but just right to express the quadrophonic sound of a thunderstorm in the Swiss Alps...

I had a lesson with him with Liszt Spanish Rhapsody. He was pretty much out of shape, but when he started showing the octaves that was out this world. There was a sense he did not have any bones in his hands. There was no one single word said about technique--everything came from musical context. The main emphasis was on the long notes, and then entire octave passage was rather a melodic line growing from that note, with the wrist position starting from "down", by the end of the passage getting into the "up" position, with entire hand moving forward. It is like his hands got penetrated into entire passage, playing it on "one" in the same breath.

There is his Liszt Concerto circulating around. Just watch the octave part near the end to see what I mean. Not for nothing he was called "sack with octaves".

Best, M

[pts1]

OK, Which one of you stole my monkey!?

You know, the one trying to figure out what to do with the peanuts?

[ajspiano]

"Is too!" - "Is not!" - "Is too!" - "Is not!"

Once or twice I've seen something that could be read as -

"Is too!"

"YES it is too"

"I know"

"I know too"

"Your still wrong"

"no, you're still wrong."

[pts1]

[j_menz]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. 

(If only)

[thalbergmad]

I wondered where my hubcaps had gone.

Thal

[ahinton]

Is not part of the problem of how to maintain a relaxed wrist when playing passages in consecutive octaves (or, for that matter, tenths, ninths, sevenths, etc.) - or passages in rapid chords - related to some degree to the extent to which wrist movement might be called upon to enable them? Whilst I accept that it's not a conventional approach, a greater dependency upon sheer finger power can help to reduce the dependency upon wrist flexing which can, if not properly managed, otherwise lead to stiffness in the wrist which in turn risks blocking that vital line from back muscles through upper and lower arm muscles to those in the hand to the fingertips. There are plenty of example passages in Liszt, Alkan and others from the 19th century, of course, but have a look at the last three and abit pages of Sorabji's Third Piano Sonata (not one of his best works, admittedly) and try to play it at no more than a quarter of a sensible performance tempo at a dynamic no greater than mf using as little direct help from wrist movement as possible - i.e. try to depend as much as possible on the finger muscles alone; working this up to performance requirements obviously takes a long time by this method, but, by helping towards minimising the input of wrist movement, it can in turn help to reduce wrist tension and enable the requisite sound production with a good deal less physical strain.

Best,

Alistair

[nyiregyhazi]

Is not part of the problem of how to maintain a relaxed wrist when playing passages in consecutive octaves (or, for that matter, tenths, ninths, sevenths, etc.) - or passages in rapid chords - related to some degree to the extent to which wrist movement might be called upon to enable them? Whilst I accept that it's not a conventional approach, a greater dependency upon sheer finger power can help to reduce the dependency upon wrist flexing which can, if not properly managed, otherwise lead to stiffness in the wrist which in turn risks blocking that vital line from back muscles through upper and lower arm muscles to those in the hand to the fingertips. There are plenty of example passages in Liszt, Alkan and others from the 19th century, of course, but have a look at the last three and abit pages of Sorabji's Third Piano Sonata (not one of his best works, admittedly) and try to play it at no more than a quarter of a sensible performance tempo at a dynamic no greater than mf using as little direct help from wrist movement as possible - i.e. try to depend as much as possible on the finger muscles alone; working this up to performance requirements obviously takes a long time by this method, but, by helping towards minimising the input of wrist movement, it can in turn help to reduce wrist tension and enable the requisite sound production with a good deal less physical strain.

Best,

Alistair

I definitely agree that the finger action is the most important. However, I do also feel that shaking the wrist from the upper arm is a good part of learning to release the wrist into freedom. I think the mistake comes when people try to move FROM the wrist- rather than merely allow movement AT the wrist. I'm increasingly convinced that the hand may even be the only notably active movement at the highest speeds (with any wrist movement possibly being an entirely passive response)- but I do feel that it's necessary to spend much of the time throwing the wrist from upper arm shakes, combined with finger movement. For pure finger practise, I think it's still important to let the wrist respond (as the action bounces the hand away from the keys)- even if it's a passive, rather than active, movement with regard to key depression.

[chopantasy]

Here's Louis Kentner:

'In this type of technique [shoulders], movements as such play a less strictly defined part.  We may assume that the loosely lying hand, the elastically unimpeded arm and the naturally placed fingers will find their own best, least strenuous way of moving.  It is therefore more important to acheive this elasticity and feeling of ease, this internal muscular harmony than to practice movements.'

I've read the whole thread and this is by far the best advice.  Mr Kentner certainly knew his stuff.  It's so easy to lose the woods if you concentrate on the trees.

[pts1]

N:

I think you might want to look into the physics involved in using a whip.

As a person manipulates a whip, the easy slow movement of the whip motion beginning at the whip handle transmits via a "rolling wave" to the tip end of the whip which -- if done correctly -- "cracks", which is a miniature sonic boom.

IOW, as the energy moves from larger mass ultimately to the smallest mass, there is an abundance of powerful small energetic movement at the tip(s).

Piano playing is similar: the shoulder acts as the handle of the whip, and as the ever so slight movement originates at the shoulder down the upper arm to the forearm, wrist, hand and fingers to finger tips, the mass is finally small and the concentrated energy gives plenty of speed and power to pull down the piano key. Tiny adjusting movements by arm, wrist, hand and fingers direct the whip-like action resulting in the desired sonority.

The feeling is like the arm and hand and fingers are like one rubbery, flexible and supple unit
which can conform on the fly to any shape/speed needed for the desired result.

Continuous thinking of all the tiny separate parts is not helpful IMHO.

Before one can disect something, it must be killed.

[p2u_]

In this type of technique [shoulders], movements as such play a less strictly defined part.  We may assume that the loosely lying hand, the elastically unimpeded arm and the naturally placed fingers will find their own best, least strenuous way of moving.  It is therefore more important to acheive this elasticity and feeling of ease, this internal muscular harmony than to practice movements.

I've read the whole thread and this is by far the best advice.  Mr Kentner certainly knew his stuff.  It's so easy to lose the woods if you concentrate on the trees.

The problem with the Kentner quote in this topic is that it has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. Kentner is a proponent of the "weight" school, and his quote is about energy (not movement!) coming from the shoulder, something nobody even objected against. In some obscure way he is talking about the same (moving a key), but it's still a misquote in the context. When you play "from the shoulder" but without the articulation of the fingers, you make sounds like a singer with bad diction. The vowels are there, but nobody can really make out what you are saying because the consonants are missing. And if you start pushing from higher up to compensate for lazy fingers, then you're in for trouble in the virtuoso repertoire.

The problem when we discuss the "finger school" is that people suddenly start seeing the work of the body as a process of raw physical power (the kind of strength a body builder has), while actually the movement of a finger is just kinetic energy (the kind of energy that breaks bricks in karate, kung fu through accelaration). It's nothing more than the articulation of a good singer. A bad singer blocks the energy (mostly air) of the torso in his throat while trying to articulate words with his cramped mouth, tongue, etc. A bad pianist blocks the energy from higher up in his wrists while trying to articulate with his cramped fingers or by pushing too hard on the fingers from higher up. I hope that makes sense.

Paul