Problem with Art of Fugue on digital piano

[forte88]

I've got a Roland Hp 3e and the better I get, the more I'm noticing its inadequacies.
At the moment I'm studying the Art of Fugue 4 and no matter how much accent I try to put in to bring out the main theme (playing the other notes as softly as I can) it just doesn't come out the way it should, there's very little difference in dynamics, so the main theme just gets lost in a deluge of notes. What's a good digital piano for this type of music, i.e. one that has the proper dynamics to bring out all the voices?

[hfmadopter]

I've got a Roland Hp 3e and the better I get, the more I'm noticing its inadequacies.
At the moment I'm studying the Art of Fugue 4 and no matter how much accent I try to put in to bring out the main theme (playing the other notes as softly as I can) it just doesn't come out the way it should, there's very little difference in dynamics, so the main theme just gets lost in a deluge of notes. What's a good digital piano for this type of music, i.e. one that has the proper dynamics to bring out all the voices?

It could be the digital piano but it also could be your technique added into the mix. Also what kind of sound system you have the piano wired into.

That said , a good sized well tuned, well voiced and regulated acoustic grand piano has volume up the ying yang ! Not sure you will articulate a digital the same way, any digital. But I have taken a liking to the sound of the Kawai MP 6. If I were to buy a digital today that would be my top choice until I hear something better ( disclaimer is I have not played one, so test heavilly for yourself)..

[maczip]

IMO it´s all due to the electric device. You will never get the dynamics as you like to have them on an electric device, however good it might be. Switch to harpsichord. This sounds great suits the fugue and solves your problem a bit.
Greetings

[forte88]

It could be the digital piano but it also could be your technique added into the mix. Also what kind of sound system you have the piano wired into.

That said , a good sized well tuned, well voiced and regulated acoustic grand piano has volume up the ying yang ! Not sure you will artuculate a digital the same way, any digital. But I have taken a liking to the sound of the Kawai MP 6. If I were to buy a digital today that would be my top choice until I hear something better ( disclaimer is I have not played one, so test heavilly for yourself)..

The thing is I've scanned the internet for a digital piano rendition of the Art of Fugue and I can't find anything. So if it's possible to bring out the voices a la Glenn Gould then they must be hiding . So yes, possibly it's my technique, but I stick to the fingering on the page. I know how it should sound but try as I may it just doesn't come out the way it should. I have the same problem with the Appassionata and Ballade no 1 and I've come to the conclusion that it has to be the (lack of) dynamics that's to blame.
I checked out the Kawai, it has great reviews, next time I'm in a music shop I'll give it a try, hopefully the dynamics are better with this one.
(The sound system isn't the problem, I've got good headphones)

[forte88]

IMO it´s all due to the electric device. You will never get the dynamics as you like to have them on an electric device, however good it might be. Switch to harpsichord. This sounds great suits the fugue and solves your problem a bit.
Greetings

Aarghh, the harpsichord sounds even worse. It's a really horrible sound, possibly I could try organ(there's one person playing Contrapunctus 1 on the digital with organ sound)but I just can't stand the sound. At least the piano for all its inadequacies sounds good. Thanks for the suggestion anyway, it was worth a try, but I think I remember why I never use that sample

[justharmony]

I have yet to hear a digital harpsichord sound that I actually liked, let alone used. Pathetic, most of them.  But I have to second the thought about the harpsichord.  In my opinion, it's not about getting the right PIANO sound because it was not composed for the piano.  I can't stand Bach or anyone before on the piano.  Sounds wrong to me.  Yeah, most of us have gotten very used to it, and to applying Romantic style overlays to Baroque or earlier music (bringing out voices and shaping melodies as if the piece were one from the romantic ere), but if you really want to hear and love the music as it was written and understood in its day, then, in my opinion, you have to approach the music in an entirely different way.  Like a different language.  And, in truth, the keyboard music of that era WAS written in a different language.  One in which dynamics were less of an expressive element than timing, tuning, contrasts.
It sounds wrong at first because we are not used to hearing music this way, but once you get used to it, the music becomes much more clear... at least that is my experience.

Yes, I play the harpsichord, and the piano. 

Just my 2 cents. 

[forte88]

if you really want to hear and love the music as it was written and understood in its day, then, in my opinion, you have to approach the music in an entirely different way.  Like a different language.  And, in truth, the keyboard music of that era WAS written in a different language.  One in which dynamics were less of an expressive element than timing, tuning, contrasts.
It sounds wrong at first because we are not used to hearing music this way, but once you get used to it, the music becomes much more clear... at least that is my experience.

I agree with some of what you wrote, but how do you explain that the different language in which they composed sounded better played on instruments still to be invented? It's almost like how deafness actually made Beethoven great coz this is how he learnt what Mozart already knew instinctively. Was it perhaps because of this language that made the compositions so much better coz the sound of the instruments made you cringe? and if it could be played on one of those horrible things without giving you a headache it would have to be a timeless piece

Perhaps composers interested in Baroque should use period instruments to compose, while people interested in playing should use solely what sounds best, pianos.....PERIOD!!!

[iansinclair]

I agree with some of what you wrote, but how do you explain that the different language in which they composed sounded better played on instruments still to be invented? It's almost like how deafness actually made Beethoven great coz this is how he learnt what Mozart already knew instinctively. Was it perhaps because of this language that made the compositions so much better coz the sound of the instruments made you cringe? and if it could be played on one of those horrible things without giving you a headache it would have to be a timeless piece

Perhaps composers interested in Baroque should use period instruments to compose, while people interested in playing should use solely what sounds best, pianos.....PERIOD!!!

I think I have to take gentle issue with your comment "sounded better played... etc.".  In some cases, I believe you are probably correct -- it has always been my feeling that Beethoven, as the best example, would have been absolutely delighted to have a modern grand, could he have heard it.  But one has to remember that the instrument with which he was familiar was the forte piano, and the modern grand is an evolution from that, not really a different instrument.  In the case of Baroque and before, however, I beg to differ.  I would be quite happy had you said "sounded different", for that is the case, but sounded better?  No.  Sorry.  The nature of the attack and decay of tone (in the case of the harpsichord and clavichord, two of Bach's favourite instruments) or the nature of the sound of an organ is so utterly different from a piano that comparisons can't be in the nature of "better" or "worse", but in the nature of "different".

It is quite possible to bring out an individual line from a set of contrapuntal lines on any of the three instruments above, provided they have the resources, but the technique is different (note that a clavichord does allow dynamic variation from touch, the other two don't).  The question legitimately can be asked, however, should one line be brought out at the expense of the others in counterpoint?  And there is no one correct answer.  Sometimes, clearly yes -- for some of the Bach chorales this is clearly intended in the writing (and is best done using two manuals, or the pedal vs. one of the manuals) (there are instances I can think of -- the great St. Anne's triple fugue in E flat being one -- where it is clear in places that you need different registration on two manuals and the pedal).  But in many cases, the answer must be no.  In my view, the more general case in counterpoint is that all of the lines are equal.

The whole mind set is different...

Might I suggest, though, that if the sound of "one of those horrible things" makes you cringe, that you might avoid listening to them... never mind playing them!

[justharmony]

Have to respond, here, first, by saying that it is by no means a given that the modern piano would be considered an obviously superior instrument to composers of earlier eras, and not even a given that those of us who are used to this instrument consider it a superior sound or instrument for all types of music.  I, for one, certainly do NOT consider it so, as I said, for Bach or anyone before him.  Even for a lot of music through the Romantic era - particularly early romantic.  The piano was a very different animal then - really three DIFFERENT animals.  Yes, it was a cousin to the modern grand, but I do not consider it to be quite so similar, and the music written for each type of piano really reflects that, and very often exploits the capabilities (yes, I said CAPABILITIES) of the instrument with which the composer was familiar and comfortable.

We are creatures of habit, most of us, and we LEARN to like what we are used to.  The way we like to hear or play a certain piece.  The way we expect it to sound.  But what we are doing is kind of like trying to play a horn concerto on, say, a trombone or something (and forgetting about the horn altogether).  They are similar in some ways, maybe, but effect will be very, very different because they ARE different instruments with their own idiosyncracies, capabilities, etc. 

MY experience is that early instruments definitely have their place, and not necessarily an "inferior" one.  I fully understand and respect the argument about Beethoven liking the modern grand.  I have to agree that certain aspects he most likely would have loved.  I also have to argue that he would have likely immediately been annoyed at certain OTHER aspects of the modern piano that he would not have been used to (and which, frankly, muddle his music, in my opinion).

Take the Waldstein sonata for example.  Those repeated chords in the bass.  We are used to hearing them on a modern grand, but even so, I think many might still hear them as muddy, at least, and maybe even ugly.  I have heard this piece, and others, played (live) on a restored period instrument, and I was floored.  Suddenly Beethoven's music made sense to me in a way that I didn't even know it hadn't before.  I was so deeply moved that I was nearly shaking by the end.  The bass notes were CLEAR and BEAUTIFUL.  And the Moonlight sonata?  My God.  I had never heard the first movement as such beautiful poetry, with such intricate detail and subtlety expressed so exquisitely, so delicately.  I have never heard anyone be able to reproduce this effect on a modern piano.  I honestly do not think it to be possible.   

Chopin?  Similar story.  Poet of the piano who was KNOWN for just this - the intricacies of his pianos, his pp's, ppp's, etc.  His fff's were said to equate to most people's mf or something like that.  He was a connosieur of the quiet, the contemplative, the clear beauty of softly-spoken poetry.

I love Chopin.  It is difficult to play him the way I would like to on the modern piano.  Don't get me wrong, I love the way I CAN play him on the modern piano.  But I think there is some Chopin missing in that, and I feel that.

Does this mean we shouldn't play these pieces on our modern insturments?  No, of course not.  And it doesn't mean they can't be beautiful, either.  But I do think that we should at least allow space for the instruments for which these composers were writing, even if that is outside our comfort zone, and maybe appreciate what these instruments can, in fact, ADD to the beauty of the music written for them, not detract.

For what it's worth.
JH

[johnmar78]

Just, I totally agree with you what you said about playing Bach that modern days we romantizing its music. When i played on harsichord, it was rather detached and dry, it had 2 strings instead of modern piano which can sustain more punish for forta. With chopin, that his piano was less resonant then now days, that could also means we should "ignored" the padel mark he marked. Just play it without pedal, if not to a mimium.
  Unfortnately, in modern society, it is much more complex and tempted as compared to classical old days. I suppose, this is part of revolution in the society.

PS Forte88, have you tried a latest  digital piano, the dynamics and touch has dramatically improved in the last 5 years.

[ajspiano]

I've got a Roland Hp 3e and the better I get, the more I'm noticing its inadequacies.
At the moment I'm studying the Art of Fugue 4 and no matter how much accent I try to put in to bring out the main theme (playing the other notes as softly as I can) it just doesn't come out the way it should, there's very little difference in dynamics, so the main theme just gets lost in a deluge of notes. What's a good digital piano for this type of music, i.e. one that has the proper dynamics to bring out all the voices?

Looking at your instruments specs I see you have the original roland progressive hammer action. My DP is a roland also, but has the next step in actions (PHA II) - I have no such problems bringing out specific voices. It should also be noted that I use my DP as a controller for a PC based piano patch. This could be either physical equipment (piano action and speakers), the piano sample in the DP OR your technical ability. Good voicing like that takes skill - you don't just walk into that kind of technique without conscious practice. Can you achieve it easily on a real piano?

Roland now has a PHA III with further improvements. Your instrument may have issues, but modern DP's in general do not, they are different to real pianos but they are fine instruments.

[pianotrio]

Justharmony, great post.  This makes me very curious. Do you have any recommendations for recordings of Beethoven or Chopin on a period instrument? (Apologies for my ignorance - and if this is a bit OT...)

[justharmony]

Curiosity is a great thing! 

Will respond more later, but I'll start just with a couple youtube vids (of all things)...

Trevor Stephenson has some amazing instruments (his Chopin recording is intriguing, and the instrument is amazing and beautiful.. but more on that later).  He's got a fortepiano vid on youtube - replica of Viennese action if I recall - search for that for a sound sampling. 

Also, this one is rather nice for the sound of the instrument - can you hear that amazing, clear, resonating bass?  MMMMMMMMMM.....

I also posted a really bad recording of a similar instrument - not much good about this recording, except the bass of the piano which still manages to come through the horrid recording, the horrid playing, and even the bad shape the piano itself was in.  If you dare (I kinda cringe posting it, but here you go):

More later.
JH

[justharmony]

pianotrio, I want to respond to your question with greater detail, but will start a new thread, as we seem to have wandered in this one. 
JH

[forte88]

Looking at your instruments specs I see you have the original roland progressive hammer action. My DP is a roland also, but has the next step in actions (PHA II) - I have no such problems bringing out specific voices. It should also be noted that I use my DP as a controller for a PC based piano patch. This could be either physical equipment (piano action and speakers), the piano sample in the DP OR your technical ability. Good voicing like that takes skill - you don't just walk into that kind of technique without conscious practice. Can you achieve it easily on a real piano?

Roland now has a PHA III with further improvements. Your instrument may have issues, but modern DP's in general do not, they are different to real pianos but they are fine instruments.

I'm possibly being set up with a soundproofed room and a reasonably tuned accoustic piano. I could probably try it in public, but I'm used to headphones and people listening makes me nervous and certainly when attempting Art of Fugue. But I agree, if I can't bring the voices out on the accoustic then it's down to bad technique, if I can then the PHA III definitely looks interesting

[forte88]

As for the discussion harpsichord or piano, I'm obviously no expert, so I've formed my opinion purely on how it sounds when listening to Bach or Scarlatti, there's only one instance that I've found the sound of the harpsichord better and that was with Scarlatti's k 531. All other cases I just thought the piano sounded better. I do agree that a modern piano isn't always an improvement. For example Chopin's nocturnes really sounded great on a Pleyel period instrument