Kawai uprights (K5)- action and tone vs Yamaha U1

[pianotrio]

I'm new on this board - despite lots of lurking - and I'm at the moment in the process of buying a piano. It's really difficult and I'd appreciate some impressions from others.... I have two "candidates" and I guess they are both fine but - apologies for a very long and rambling post!

I virtually haven't touched a piano for over 10 years, so needless to say my technique is very rusty - so I feel i cannot completely judge a piano's action based on how it feels under my fingers. I can tell if it's a little lighter, or heavier, but I guess lighter is not necessarily a good thing if I want to restore hand strength, flexibility etc.

As for sound, it's more personal judgement but again I wonder how much is due to my inability to play properly rather than the instrument itself.
 
So: candidate 1 - a new Kawai K5 with the ATX silent system. I had a preference for the sound of this piano having tried it once before, in a different showroom. To me the sound is more mellow. On the other hand my husband who was there only the second time, said it sounded "a bit blurry" compared to the Yamaha. He says he felt the Yamaha sound was cleaner with the different notes better distinguished...

Does this make any sense? Are there any here who do NOT like the Kawai sound? I don't know how to describe it in better terms than this unfortunately.

Candidate 2 - a 2002 Yamaha YUS1 with silent system. This one was in a different space, so it wasn't a fair comparison to the Kawai. IT's also 10 years old (which isn't that old, granted). Not heavily used, mostly in the silent mode. It did have a noticeably brighter sound. The action felt lighter than the Kawai, which feels like there is a bit more resistance to it. Neither was "too" heavy or too light, though.

Now here is the crux: in the showroom, after I tried the Kawai and before we went to the depot to see the seconcd-hand Yammy, I also played a bit on a brand-new Yamaha U1. The dealer said that both Yamahas would sound the same so he encouraged me to try that one out for sound in the same space.  Now, I really liked that particular piano: the action felt lovely, and the sound was clear, brilliant but not over-bright. I actually preferred it to the Kawai. (I have tried other  (second-hand) U1/YU1 models before, and I did not like them as much.)

However, the instrument I would actually buy is not that same brand-new piano, but a 10-year old second-hand one. It did sound very similiar, recognisably the same brand let's say, but it did not sound exactly the same. I didn't have the "oh, I LIKE this one!" feeling that I had with the new instrument.

So, before my hubby brought out this 'blurring issue", I had preferred the Kawai's warmer sound. Also the silent system is nicer on the Kawai. But the second-hand Yamaha is cheaper, slightly smaller (see below) and IF I could be sure that once in my home it would sound the same as the new one in the shop, I would probably take it. Trouble is I can't be sure.

I still like the Kawai and I think perhaps it's just the way I played it (i.e. poorly) that might have created the "blurriness" (I was using the pedal).

What would you do? I think I have to go back to the dealer to give them another try. Are you able to give me any advice how I should test the piano given my limited ability to play actual whole pieces. There is no-one I can take with me to play for me; I asked the dealer to play a bit and he did, but he is not really a classical pianist.

P.S. the silent system is a "must" hence the two choices. Size matters because I cannot fit anything taller than 125cm through my apartment block's stairwell/windows.

TIA for any views whatsoever
(edited to try and make my thoughts a bit clearer - English is not my first language as you can probably tell. And I am sitting in a rather boring conference at the moment, thinking about pianos.... )

[quantum]

A list of parameters I use to test pianos:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=27871.msg322628#msg322628

Your description of the Kawai does make sense. 

Two copies of a given model are in no way guaranteed to sound or feel equal.  Even though Yamaha is praised for consistency in production, there is a lot one can do to change the character of a piano through voicing and regulation.  I have a Yamaha C3 that has uncharacteristic traits for typical C series pianos (probably part of the reason I was drawn to it). 

Personally, I like the Kawai tone for romantic and impressionist music.  The sound which is rich in overtones is capable of producing a vivid colour palette suitable for this music.  Tone is weighted more towards body than attack, and this beneficial when you don't want to hear the clickity-clack of every single note. 

As for the Yamaha tone, I feel it is quite suitable for music that asks for clarity or a more edgy sound.  There is more presence in the attack, and decays are quicker.  Less emphasis in the presence of overtones within the body creates a certain clarity or directness of tone.  It is wonderful when you don't want to be distracted by overly opulent harmonics in the tone. 

I have encountered many U1's in schools and institutions, and have found that many of them could be greatly improved with voicing.  To me, the default U1 tone is rather bland and average.  That is not to say they are a bad piano, just that the sound they come out of the factory with can be much improved with a little tweaking. 


Regarding your search, it is important to pick a piano that speaks to you.  Narrowing down to a model is only a step.  One YUS1, may be completely different to another YUS1.  When you finally come across that piano, you will have a sense there is something special about it. 

It seems there is something that attracted you to that particular U1 even if it was outside your search parameters.  Don't ignore such occurrences.  They may lead you to discover a piano you didn't know you would like. 

[pianotrio]

A list of parameters I use to test pianos:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=27871.msg322628#msg322628

Thanks, that is a helpful thread. I don't think I"ll need the 20th century plucking techniques though. 

Personally, I like the Kawai tone for romantic and impressionist music.  The sound which is rich in overtones is capable of producing a vivid colour palette suitable for this music.  Tone is weighted more towards body than attack, and this beneficial when you don't want to hear the clickity-clack of every single note.  

As for the Yamaha tone, I feel it is quite suitable for music that asks for clarity or a more edgy sound.  There is more presence in the attack, and decays are quicker.  Less emphasis in the presence of overtones within the body creates a certain clarity or directness of tone.  It is wonderful when you don't want to be distracted by overly opulent harmonics in the tone.  

I have encountered many U1's in schools and institutions, and have found that many of them could be greatly improved with voicing.  To me, the default U1 tone is rather bland and average.  That is not to say they are a bad piano, just that the sound they come out of the factory with can be much improved with a little tweaking.  

Interesting. What you say more or less fits to my experience so far. I did think the Kawai had quite a full, rounded tone.  

Regarding your search, it is important to pick a piano that speaks to you.  Narrowing down to a model is only a step.  One YUS1, may be completely different to another YUS1.  When you finally come across that piano, you will have a sense there is something special about it.  

It seems there is something that attracted you to that particular U1 even if it was outside your search parameters.  Don't ignore such occurrences.  They may lead you to discover a piano you didn't know you would like.  

I agree with you absolutely 100%. In theory. However I can't have an acoustic instrument without a silent mechanism unless I'm willing to move house (and I'm not at the moment), so that limits the choices enormously. There are very few silent pianos on the second-hand market, and I cannot afford a new silent Yamaha. (I can however afford a new Kawai K5.)

So, my objective is to find a good piano, not a perfect one maybe but one that I enjoy listening to, and that will enable me to practice with pleasure and improve my playing. In a couple of years, if I feel like it, I'll reconsider, but unless I can upgrade to a more expensive silent piano that will also mean moving house.  

So I'll go back this weekend to see the dealer for another "test run," equipped with your advice. And see what I like best.  

[quantum]

One thing I should add: try out many pianos at the store.  That includes ones that are far out of your price range.  When you play many pianos you will begin to recognize traits of the instrument that you value and would like to have in your own instrument.  You will also recognize aspects that are deal breakers and which you absolutely do not want in your own instrument.  

Go play the $200k concert grands, and the $50k 7 footers.  While not practical for your home, you will indeed learn about the instruments, and become more attuned to characteristics you favour.  As you play many pianos, your ear will become more sensitized to differences between them.  You will also have an idea to judge where in the spectrum of sound a piano places itself to your ear.  

[pianotrio]

Sound advice. I'm going back tomorrow.

[I already visited several dealers and played several pianos, though I did not play those that were totally outside my budget, grands etc. I was afraid of fixating on something so wonderful that I would never again be satisfied with anything that actually fitted my own limited means....

anyway, this dealer I do like because he takes an interest in me as a customer and what I'm looking for (unlike one rather 'upmarket' dealer I visited ), plus this guy seems to put a lot of emphasis on the preparation of the instrument and is a technician himself.]