If you were to learn and entire collection of pieces....

[asuhayda]

what would you choose? Ex. Bach - Inventions & Sinfonias

[ajspiano]

...WTC? - If I was only allowed 1 I'd probably go there, even though its not my favourite, I just think I'd learn the most there.

..I plan on doing both chopin's preludes and etudes well before I would consider learning all the Ps & Fs in real life though..  so I may not get there

[j_menz]

..I plan on doing both chopin's preludes and etudes well before I would consider learning all the Ps & Fs in real life though..  so I may not get there

Once you get the hang of them, the P&Fs aren't that demanding. A lifetimes study to truly plumb their depths, of course, but being able to play them to a level where that can start  shouldn't be that big a challenge.

___________________________

I've played through quite a few entire collections (to a greater or lesser degree of learnedness).  Of course, I would not claim to have mastered them, but there is something to be learnt from just playing them all.

Next full collection off the block? Possibly the Clementi Sonatas, though the sheer number of them is a bit intimidating.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I'm contemplating Rachmaninoff 6 moment musicals or Morceaux Salon some time in the eventual future.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Once you get the hang of them, the P&Fs aren't that demanding. A lifetimes study to truly plumb their depths, of course, but being able to play them to a level where that can start  shouldn't be that big a challenge.

What?! They're freaking impossible!

[ajspiano]

being able to play them to a level where that can start  shouldn't be that big a challenge.

No, but considering my approach to inventions, how much depth do you think I'll be going into? and how long might it therefore take to work through the whole lot?

I've played a few P's & F's..  playing and studying..  two different things.

[ajspiano]

What?! They're freaking impossible!

You could try sight reading the whole WTC..   

It'll take a while, and you'll get a headache, - but it'll do wonders for your playing..   and sight reading..

[j_menz]

What?! They're freaking impossible!

Not once you get the hang of them.

Incidentally, you fixed up your misspelling of Morceaux Salom before I had a chance to quote it and post the jokes I had. 

[j_menz]

No, but considering my approach to inventions, how much depth do you think I'll be going into? and how long might it therefore take to work through the whole lot?

I've played a few P's & F's..  playing and studying..  two different things.

I agree entirely re the playing vs studying, but suggest there may be some benefit to playing them all independent of the study component.

I hadn't forgotten your approach, and am looking forward to you improvising a fouth and fifth part to thos trivially simple 3 voice fugues.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You could try sight reading the whole WTC..  

It'll take a while, and you'll get a headache, - but it'll do wonders for your playing..   and sight reading..

Hmmmm, I sense a meme coming on here.

Spongebob

Guy:  welcome to the salty spitoon. how tough are ya'?

Other guy:  I can play Bach's WTC

Guy: yeah... So?

Other guy:  WITHOUT SOUNDING LIKE SCHOENBERG

Guy:    Sorry to keep you waiting.  Right this way!

[j_menz]

and you'll get a headache

Actually, it's better than asprin as a cure!

[ajspiano]

Actually, it's better than asprin as a cure!

Maybe it gets addictive and slightly narcotic the more times you do it. The first time I tried barely made it half way through book 1, became physically exhausted and fell asleep.

^that was some time ago though..  maybe i'll try again, its been a while.

[j_menz]

Maybe it gets addictive and slightly narcotic the more times you do it. The first time I tried barely made it half way through book 1, became physically exhausted and fell asleep.

^that was some time ago though..  maybe i'll try again, its been a while.

Not sure about addictive and narcotic, but it is certainly immersing and relaxing.

The "trick" is to learn to be able to hear all the voices while your playing as voices/lines not just as disjointed notes. It's something of a gestalt shift, but once it's made, there's no looking back.

[ajspiano]

The "trick" is to learn to be able to hear all the voices while your playing as voices/lines not just as disjointed notes. It's something of a gestalt shift, but once it's made, there's no looking back.

Indeed, horizontal hearing rather than vertical. I can do this if I memorise the work, harder when reading..  more to focus on i guess.

I hadn't forgotten your approach, and am looking forward to you improvising a fouth and fifth part to thos trivially simple 3 voice fugues.

Will post a video in 40 years.

Seriously though, I can hear inventions in my head now, that have structure and fluency. Woot. I'm having freaking bach dreams. I'll wake up all like "yyya da da da da di diddle dum di do" and then realise its 3 am and I was just dreaming baroque lines again.

Can't translate them to the keys fast enough though when I'm at a piano.. and I'm probably breaking the "rules" of two part writing (not that I care much about that.. I guess i'll have to just sit down and more or less transcribe all the lines spinning around in my head.

[j_menz]

Indeed, horizontal hearing rather than vertical. I can do this if I memorise the work, harder when reading..  more to focus on i guess.

Maybe you're still reading vertically?

Will post a video in 40 years.

Seriously though, I can hear inventions in my head now, that have structure and fluency. Woot. I'm having freaking bach dreams. I'll wake up all like "yyya da da da da di diddle dum di do" and then realise its 3 am and I was just dreaming baroque lines again.

Can't translate them to the keys fast enough though when I'm at a piano.. and I'm probably breaking the "rules" of two part writing (not that I care much about that.. I guess i'll have to just sit down and more or less transcribe all the lines spinning around in my head.

 

Bach dreams now, eh? Maybe you should hold off a read through the WTC for a bit. Or enter a 12 step programme.

[ajspiano]

Maybe you're still reading vertically?

maybe, - a failed method rather than a limited skill.. I much prefer that option, usually means I get better on the spot rather than gradually.

Or enter a 12 step programme.

...fugue in every major key?

[j_menz]

...fugue in every major key?

Why not just a 12 voice fugue in one key?

I'll be able to hear your head explode from here, I think.

[j_menz]

In case anyone reading this thinks all P&F combos are Baroque, there's a really good set of 24 by Shostakovich that doesn't get nearly the attention it deserves, and which I would wholeheartedly commend as an "entire collection" worth learning.

[49410enrique]

You could try sight reading the whole WTC..  

It'll take a while, and you'll get a headache, - but it'll do wonders for your playing..   and sight reading..

so i've heard. yet to experience it lol. pretty much a summation of all my previous piano lessons on anything JS Bach


yet despite my baggae, i too would elect for all WTC (I,II), a very close 2nd would be the Kapustin 24  preludes and fugues. it is an incredible body of work.

[asuhayda]

Thanks for all of the entertaining comments everyone!

I used to be like rach 4 eva  ... but I'm a Bach convert.  I haven't touched a Romantic piece in over a year now... Strangely, I don't miss them all that much.  I'm not crazy about ramping up new Bach pieces, but I love playing the finished product. It reminds me of putting a puzzle together.

I do like the idea of the Shostakovich P&F's I've heard of them before, but I have not actually listened to them.. I'll have to check them out.

The WTC is a great one too.. I listen to Glenn Gould's and Richter's recordings of them all the time.  I've played a few of them (1,2,3,5,14,18) ... I don't know if I have the strength to learn them all.  I play them pretty well when I've learned them, but they take me quite a while ... much longer than it takes for me to learn a typical piece by Chopin or even Liszt (in some cases). Not technical, but for some reason, Bach's music doesn't stick if that makes sense.. I find myself having to practice sections waay longer than normal in order to train my fingers to play them correctly.

I have been working on English Suite No.2 for a few months now, which is the same amount of time it took me to learn HR #15 ... don't hate 

[arvhaax93]

I would learn the entire set of Lyapunov's 12 Transcendental Etudes...they are absolutely sublime!!!!

[outin]

This is easy: All the Scarlatti sonatas of course!
That's my long term goal anyway

[j_menz]

the Kapustin 24  preludes and fugues.

Wait!! I didn't know about these! How? 

Now ordered and on their happy way to me. 

[ajspiano]

pretty much a summation of all my previous piano lessons on anything JS Bach

hahah - I like the way that it tells you that, then you learn it, and have this sense of significant improvement and then you try another piece of Bach and this time it doesn't just say "you suck" hidden between the lines of notes - rather its written in bold caps directly over the score.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Thanks for all of the entertaining comments everyone!

I used to be like rach 4 eva  ... but I'm a Bach convert. 

No!!!!  Another lost ally!

[j_menz]

No!!!!  Another lost ally!

Haha, think of how many friends will be waiting for you when you finally do see the light. 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Haha, think of how many friends will be waiting for you when you finally do see the light. 

NOOOOOOOO, you must see the light!!!

I am an angel sent from Rachmaninoff to come and convert-

Nevermind...

[j_menz]

NOOOOOOOO, you must see the light!!!

I am an angel sent from Rachmaninoff to come and convert-

Nevermind...

You may have missed it, but I have never said a bad word against Rachmaninoff. 

I would, however, suggest that until you overcome your Bach inadequacies, there's quite a bit in Rachmaninoff you are actually missing out on, and I believe he would not have chosen an angel so blinded.  Same goes for Scriabin, incidentally.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You may have missed it, but I have never said a bad word against Rachmaninoff. 

I would, however, suggest that until you overcome your Bach inadequacies, there's quite a bit in Rachmaninoff you are actually missing out on, and I believe he would not have chosen an angel so blinded.  Same goes for Scriabin, incidentally.

Yeah, yeah, I know...

Bach may be my least favorite, but I do like a COUPLE works by him. 

Goldberg variations
WTC 2 B minor
WTC 1 A flat major
Another WTC in like G# minor
Another one in g minor
and another one in e minor

THAT'S IT!

I don't intend on learning all of them because they're freaking impossible.  The WTC in g minor and A flat major were such a hassle to learn...

[j_menz]

I actually only like two pieces from Bach.  His prelude and fugue from WTC book 2 in B minor, and his Goldberg variations. 

Those are the only two works I will EVER like from him!  So don't get too friendly with me Bach, those are the ONLY exceptions!

Yeah, yeah, I know...

Bach may be my least favorite, but I do like a COUPLE works by him. 

Goldberg variations
WTC 2 B minor
WTC 1 A flat major
Another WTC in like G# minor
Another one in g minor
and another one in e minor

THAT'S IT!

I don't intend on learning all of them because they're freaking impossible.  The WTC in g minor and A flat major were such a hassle to learn...

 

You're getting better! Couple of months and you'll be lining up to do Art of the Fugue. 

[ajspiano]

deleted. WRONG THREAD.

[49410enrique]

Wait!! I didn't know about these! How?  

Now ordered and on their happy way to me.  

indeed. a fine investment , did you get both books (vol i and ii i think is how they are published and for sale at tutti)? , i think the importance and impact of the work yet remains to be recognized but hopefully music historians and musicologists in the future will recognize how in incredible this masterpiece of the modern piano lit really is.


pianist Leslie De'Ath puts it nicely:
'...His most ambitious work for piano to date is the set of twenty-four Preludes and Fugues, Op.82, written in 1997. Occupying 173 pages of dense manuscript (MY EDIT-approx 219 pages of modern typset published-), they nod to tradition by presenting a prelude/fugue pair in each of the 24 keys. The key scheme is quite unusual though: major alternates with minor, as in Bach, but the major keys tour the circle of 5ths in the flat direction (beginning with C major and ending with G major), while the minor keys tour in the same mode, but begin at the other side of the circle (starting with G# minor and ending with E-flat minor). This has the effect of juxtaposing very unrelated keys, and spacing relative majors and minors as far apart from one another as possible. This work remains an unknown tour-de-force of compositional synthesis and ingenuity, and a unique landmark in large-scale twentieth-century works for keyboard. Bach’s Well-Tempered Clavier masterfully and effortlessly synthesized the demands of linear counterpoint and 18th-century harmonic practice. Kapustin’s achievement in fusing a jazz-driven harmonic idiom with those same contrapuntal demands is perhaps comparable. Few others could even have contemplated such a project..."

Read more: https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Jun02/Kapustin.htm#ixzz226j4Pb6K

[49410enrique]

hahah - I like the way that it tells you that, then you learn it, and have this sense of significant improvement and then you try another piece of Bach and this time it doesn't just say "you suck" hidden between the lines of notes - rather its written in bold caps directly over the score.

yep. it stops just short of reaching out and slapping you accross the face and yelling "NO THAT'S NOT RIGHT YOU DUMB DUMB"

[davidjosepha]

If I were to learn an entire set of pieces...hmm. I'd probably take the common answer and just say WTC. There are groups of pieces I like more. For instance, I like a lot of Rachmaninoff's preludes, and I really like Scriabin's preludes op. 11, but I don't like all the pieces in these groups (and it would be a pain to struggle through some of the less memorable Rach preludes...23/9 for instance...), and I don't think there's a single collection I would learn more from playing. After learning all of the WTC, I think it seems likely I'd have improved my playing enough to make it much easier to learn any of the other collections I would consider learning. I guess my answer is kinda gaming the system, like wishing for infinite other wishes, but since it's Bach I'm sure you'll all let it slide

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You're getting better! Couple of months and you'll be lining up to do Art of the Fugue. 

Okay, the first time I said two pieces, but that's because I was only too lazy to type up everything. 

I'm not getting 'better', my discontent for Bach is the same it's always been.

[davidjosepha]

Okay, the first time I said two pieces, but that's because I was only too lazy to type up everything. 

I'm not getting 'better', my discontent for Bach is the same it's always been.

How much have you listened to Bach? I think many studies show that it takes about 20 times trying something before you can be sure you actually don't like it. Some things you just have to acquire a taste for, like wine, beer, vodka...pretty much anything alcoholic, but also Bach! Maybe. I'm not holding my breath on you

[rachmaninoff_forever]

How much have you listened to Bach?

I've listened to him enough...  My first piano teacher would play Bach all the for me time when he's not teaching.  Bach for him is like Rachmaninoff for me.

[j_menz]

indeed. a fine investment , did you get both books (vol i and ii i think is how they are published and for sale at tutti)? , i think the importance and impact of the work yet remains to be recognized but hopefully music historians and musicologists in the future will recognize how in incredible this masterpiece of the modern piano lit really is.

Haha, you seriously think I'd miss out on half of them (and in the context of this thread)?

[j_menz]

Okay, the first time I said two pieces, but that's because I was only too lazy to type up everything. 

I'm not getting 'better', my discontent for Bach is the same it's always been.

** Notes your recent purchase of the whole WTC, smiles smugly and otherwise shuts up. 

[49410enrique]

Haha, you seriously think I'd miss out on half of them (and in the context of this thread)?

lol  ;Dmore a firendly fyi for the general audience.

[zezhyrule]

Oh man, thanks for introducing me to the Kapustin Prelude & Fugues. I'm going to order a copy of them soon.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

** Notes your recent purchase of the whole WTC, smiles smugly and otherwise shuts up. 

That's because it was only for like 10 dollars and I was sick and tired of looking for the score and having the wind from the window or air conditioning blowing it everywhere and worrying about the dogs eating my music!

And I didn't respond earlier because I was out skating!

Don't take my words out of context!  Lawyers sure do know how to use that to their advantage huh?

[j_menz]

Don't take my words out of context! 

1) I didn't take your words, merely noted your actions.

2) There was no loss of context.

It appears the Universe is conspiring to get you into Bach. Resistance is futile!!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

1) I didn't take your words, merely noted your actions.

2) There was no loss of context.

It appears the Universe is conspiring to get you into Bach. Resistance is futile!!

I will fight the darkness until the day I die!

[j_menz]

I will fight the darkness until the day I die!

Unfortunately, you appear to be fighting on the wrong side, then.

[perprocrastinate]

I will fight the darkness until the day I die!

Then I shall fall to my death with you, comrade!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Unfortunately, you appear to be fighting on the wrong side, then.

I have suffered a near fatal blow today!

My teacher loves Bach!    Just when I thought we were getting along...

[davidjosepha]

I have suffered a near fatal blow today!

My teacher loves Bach!    Just when I thought we were getting along...

You know who else loved Bach?

...

Rachmaninoff

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You know who else loved Bach?

...

Rachmaninoff

This is where Scriabin fills in for Rachmaninoff
 

[j_menz]

I have suffered a near fatal blow today!

My teacher loves Bach!    Just when I thought we were getting along...

   Universe 2: Rachmaninoff_forever 0