Any tips or suggestions on refingering?

[1piano4joe]

I recently had been practicing a RCM level 3 Etude called "All Aboard" following the suggested fingering.

I don't believe in changing fingerings on etudes as I feel that is very often the whole point of the etude.

However, I practiced a very long time and could not play it at tempo and made lots of mistakes adhering to the fingering. I simply changed the fingering and almost instantly played the piece at tempo. What do you think?

Is it possible that using the thumb on "white keys" could be wrong in the sense that the playing of the passage is so much more difficult?

I find playing left handed staccato thirds in a crossed hands position with a 1-3 fingering causes my middle finger to play the thin back part of the white keys and at speed with constant hand shifts I find it difficult if not impossible to have the consistent accuracy of landing where I should.

I find it very uncomfortable to play the front of the white keys 1-3 cross handed as I have to turn my left hand outwards so much so that my thumb is on the white keys.

I switched my fingering and now tried 2-4 and found this to be a much superior fingering. I have been taught this is bad technique as my left thumb is hanging behind the keyboard maybe two inches. I also discovered a more natural travel as my left hand follows a circle as it is uncrossing. Lastly, the "confusion" of relearning a new fingering was to my surprise unusually minimal.

I believe the editor did this solely for "memory" purposes and this way, all the thirds would be fingered the same way. 

Strangely, later in this same etude, the editor uses 2-4 for staccato thirds where the right hand crosses the left. This I played straight away and didn't give it a moments thought. How foolish was that? This leads me to think that the given fingering isn't critical to the etude.

This is both a divided chord study and a crossed hand study.

So can it be inefficient to use the thumb on a white key?

Thanking you in advance, Joe.

[mikeowski]

My teacher always tries fingerings by playing the passages in question as fast as possible a few times to see if the fingering is useable at speed. If it feels comfortable I'd say go with it, pre-written fingerings are nothing more than suggestions most of the time.

[faulty_damper]

The rule of keeping the thumb on white keys should be considered obsolete.  Any accomplished pianist will discover that this rule is not efficient nor is it effective for playing quickly.  Unfortunately, many teachers still preach this because they don't know it is wrong.

"Those who can, do.  Those who can't, teach."

I'll also add: those who can't, edit fingerings.

Buyer beware.  You've just been conned.

[j_menz]

The fingerings marked on a piece are suggestions only and can generally be ignored IMO.

That said, the problems you identify sound to me very much more likely to arise because of factors unrelated to the fingerings marked. It is very difficult to tell from the limited description  that you have given, and in any case difficult without actually observing, but it sounds to me like the problem has a great deal more to do with how you are holding your body and where you are positioning yourself with respect to the keyboard.

Do you have a teacher to help you with this? If not, I suggest you post a vid showing those aspects of your playing.

[1piano4joe]

I will quote bernhard.

"And the fact is, the right fingering will depend on the player and on the passage, so one cannot come up with the ultimate fingering. The pianist must find this out by himself. This is the main reason scores often do not have fingerings: They leave it open to the pianist to figure out his own best fingering. On the other hand, scores who do have fingering, should always be regarded as a starting point, a simple suggestion, and no one should ever be compelled to follow such fingerings.

There is one important exception to this rule. Sometimes in technical studies, a fingering is specified that must be followed simply because the aim of the study is to work on that particular fingering, even if some other fingering could be used with greater ease."

It is this second paragraph which I personally agree with and bernhard's posts which are held in extremely high regards which is why I asked this question about changing fingerings specifically on etudes.

I once saw a Czerny book (Opus 599) and all the repeated notes were rewritten with the same fingering. Essentially, IMO, rendering the book at the most, totally pointless and at the least, less useful or instructive. I would not use nor recommend to anyone else to use this particular edition but that's just my opinion.

I have no problem whatsoever changing fingerings on repertoire pieces but am reluctant to do so even with good reason on an etude. I was hoping some teachers on pianostreet used the Celebration Series etudes and could share their opinions regarding them.

Bernhard's quote is from a post "Stressing the importance of fingerings" for those who were wondering.

I always sit "properly". I am compulsive about it. What I don't do is change my position for any given piece as I was told this is very bad. I will lean forward or back and allow my arms to move away from my body as I am very conscious of movement and have read Seymour Fink's book and own the video.

Yes, it's true that I could put the bench back further which would keep my arms more relatively perpendicular to the keyboard as well as allow my elbow to move in front of my body and it definitely makes the original fingering easier. Also, my hand doesn't need to turn as much in this position. It just seems sort of weird to me.

In addition, I discovered that a given fingering may require a more specific placement on the keys. In this case, it is playing with the thumb at the very front edge of the white key. I am barely an intermediate so this is not always immediately apparent to me. There are certain things I just don't stay conscious of. For instance, I was instructed to play scales by tilting my fingers in the direction I'm going as well as leading with my elbow but I don't generally do this. Combined with thumb over I can play very fast scales.

I just broke out the ruler. The white keys measure six inches in length and are just under an inch at their widest part. Apparently, all parts of a key are utilized in one piece or another. Tenths (if one can barely reach them) might be possible hanging on the front edges of the keys. The root position triad Eb played with 1,3,5 will cause the middle finger to play the thin back part of a white key. 

I am finished with this etude and am moving on as I learned about as much as I can from it and thanks to all who took the time to respond. It is greatly appreciated, Joe.