I'm stuck in terms of what to learn

[scherzo123]

This topic is now a very hot topic. 

[qpalqpal]

OKay... I want to learn CORRECTLY, and I want to use everything I learn as REPERTOIRE, not only to develop technique. For example, as asjpiano said, I can only learn the etudes half well if I try now, right? Well, I want to play it well, musically, with expression, not like a STUDY. Now, the other "lesser: studies I'm fine with because they are insignificant. To sort of trash a chopin etude and slap it together would be a huge loss in my repertoire.

I don't know, am i thinking correctly??? 

[qpalqpal]

I will take the time later to look into this topic/thread in detail. Very nice! 

[chopin2015]

You'll trash it your first try anyways, as well as many other pieces, we all sometimes trash and call dirty names. If you approach it correctly, you will do fine. Approaching it correctly means giving it enough time and slow practice. I believe ajspiano talked about that too.  

[ajspiano]

LOL
ajspiano,

HELLer etudes sound scary...

hahaha..  well perhaps - not really though, he has several sets all designed to progressively follow each other.

..even if they seem "hell" ish - at least he's open about it, right there in his name..   not like chopin, who lures you in all romantically and while casually trying to inflict a repetitive strain injury.

-.- What I meant is that you should just steadily learned the notes and play them slowly, then add pedal and colors and such.

Difficult to really gauge you're process here, but I don't think I agree at all. The technique is in the colours/music and the speed, as is the case with all music (not just chopin etudes).

The way you've put it there is like double learning, and forced unlearning of bad habits created through overuse of slow unmusical practice with no reference to an end product.

EDIT: I should add that I'm not saying don't practice slowly, and do practice fast...

The required practice is "slow motion" the exact same motion and physical feeling and thought process that goes on while playing fast - SLOWLY. And you have to try to play fast to figure out what that is.

You can't just play slowly without thought to the music and final speed and expect everything to fall into place if you give it enough time...  or perhaps you can, but it will take much longer than if you consciously think about how to do it...   ...which is of course also best done under experienced guidance.

"lesser: studies I'm fine with because they are insignificant.

I actually would argue that you shouldn't learn anything that you would consider insignificant and wouldn't want to perform publicly. There's plenty of nice music at all levels.

[scherzo123]

you can put dynamics too while learning the notes.  -.-

[davidjosepha]

You'll trash it your first try anyways, as well as many other pieces, we all sometimes trash and call dirty names. If you approach it correctly, you will do fine. Approaching it correctly means giving it enough time and slow practice. I believe ajspiano talked about that too. 

That's just plain wrong. Yes, it's good advice for someone for whom the etudes are a bit of stretch but within their reach, but for someone who admits to not being able to play a Bach invention very well, the etudes are just a waste of time. Best case scenario, he learns very little of value and destroys a beautiful piece. Worst case scenario, he destroys the piece and develops many bad habits or even hurts himself trying to play something he's not ready to play. J_menz provided some valuable advice on pieces he should learn in the mean time.

If you don't trust me, qpalqpal, listen to ajspiano, who has posted a very good rendition of one of the Chopin etudes in the Audition Room and clearly knows what he's talking about when it comes to these pieces.

[chopin2015]

I agree that is is good to learn stuff without the pedal and try to legato without the pedal first. I will recommend this with the 1st Scherzo/Chopin

[qpalqpal]

That's just plain wrong. Yes, it's good advice for someone for whom the etudes are a bit of stretch but within their reach, but for someone who admits to not being able to play a Bach invention very well, the etudes are just a waste of time. Best case scenario, he learns very little of value and destroys a beautiful piece. Worst case scenario, he destroys the piece and develops many bad habits or even hurts himself trying to play something he's not ready to play. J_menz provided some valuable advice on pieces he should learn in the mean time.

Now, i said that I can't quite perform that Bach Invention because I LEARNED IT WRONG! I started hands together, developed bad habits, tried fast at first, and "slapped" it together. SO! If I hadn't done that, it would have been better, Certainly. Also, the sonatina is quite a mess, not so much because it is so simple, and I can refine it a week before a house performance for guests, so that i am good at if I learn correctly and not willy-nilly

[ajspiano]

listen to ajspiano, who has posted a very good rendition of one of the Chopin etudes in the Audition Room and clearly knows what he's talking about when it comes to these pieces.

Thanks for the vote of confidence 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

OKay... I want to learn CORRECTLY, and I want to use everything I learn as REPERTOIRE, not only to develop technique. For example, as asjpiano said, I can only learn the etudes half well if I try now, right? Well, I want to play it well, musically, with expression, not like a STUDY. Now, the other "lesser: studies I'm fine with because they are insignificant. To sort of trash a chopin etude and slap it together would be a huge loss in my repertoire.

I don't know, am i thinking correctly??? 

This is PRECICELY the reason you learn a Chopin prelude!  (No. 4).

Then after that why don't you try Chopin nocturne No. 20?

[qpalqpal]

Another thing is, someone said that I haven't heard the nocturnes much. Well, I have, and know all of them (the sound). I actually started learning (I was ignorant of my skills) Chopin's nocturne in e minor op. 72. until page 2. It wasn't bad at all, but I stopped because... I think because I went to Spain and so I didn't continue. ANYWAYS... I started learning a lot of stuff, and then never played the rest, just for fun. its quite sad  

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Another thing is, someone said that I haven't heard the nocturnes much. Well, I have, and know all of them (the sound). I actually started learning (I was ignorant of my skills) Chopin's nocturne in e minor op. 72. until page 2. It wasn't bad at all, but I stopped because... I think because I went to Spain and so I didn't continue. ANYWAYS... I started learning a lot of stuff, and then never played the rest, just for fun. its quite sad  

Well that was me.  I said that I assumed it.  Because I thought that you didn't consider any of the nocturnes.  But after reading this, I take it back.

So ANYWAYS, you should continue Op. 72, learn Chopin prelude No. 4, or try the one on C# minor.

Or you could listen to ajs or J Menz.  I rarely agree with them, but... Whatever dude...

[qpalqpal]

OMG!! I felt a bulge to cry when you mentioned nocturne 20. Thats the piece I started learning when I was 10, and never continued! My goodness!! :'D YES... if its within my reach :[. I really love it, very beautiful. Thanks. and now that I know scales, it will DEFINATELY help. I learned the entire page a long arse time ago. Wow thanks for bringing it back

[scherzo123]

So now you know what to learn??? 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

OMG!! I felt a bulge to cry when you mentioned nocturne 20. Thats the piece I started learning when I was 10, and never continued! My goodness!! :'D YES... if its within my reach :[. I really love it, very beautiful. Thanks. and now that I know scales, it will DEFINATELY help. I learned the entire page a long arse time ago. Wow thanks for bringing it back

Thread closed!
 
 

How about THAT Davidjosepha!  It turns out he's quite fond of the C# minor nocturne.

[qpalqpal]

OKAY, i have to look through this again and decide, but defiantly the prelude 4 chopin, maybe the nocturne, and I still don't know about the rest. The etudes is VERY controversial. haha.

[qpalqpal]

Wait, IS the nocturne in my reach. Seriously though, none of this "do what gives you joy" BS, I need to know if I can truly handle it with color and tone etc.

[ajspiano]

I LEARNED IT WRONG!... tried fast at first

Methods in learning to play fast, which should be done straight away in small HS segments. - not left till you can already play the whole thing HT at a casual crawl.

https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.II.9 - chord attack
https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.II.11 - parallel sets

https://pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.20 - inventions parallel sets, briefly analysed.

^this is ofcourse just chang's way of explaining it, there are variations on the process - particularly to accommodate transitions between sets.

**may be difficult to absorb and apply in one sitting.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Wait, IS the nocturne in my reach. Seriously though, none of this "do what gives you joy" BS, I need to know if I can truly handle it with color and tone etc.

You should be able to manage.  But earlier you said that the Chopin etudes are controversial.

...
...
...

DON'T DO IT  

Now this time for sure...

Thread closed

Now hurry hurry!  Get back to practicing!  

[davidjosepha]

Another thing is, someone said that I haven't heard the nocturnes much. Well, I have, and know all of them (the sound). I actually started learning (I was ignorant of my skills) Chopin's nocturne in e minor op. 72. until page 2. It wasn't bad at all, but I stopped because... I think because I went to Spain and so I didn't continue. ANYWAYS... I started learning a lot of stuff, and then never played the rest, just for fun. its quite sad  

I played around with the E minor one a little while ago. I didn't really refine it, but it's not too difficult, I don't think, except the frickin unnecessary awful-sounding ornaments Chopin is famous for. Those aren't really /that/ difficult either, but they're definitely the hardest technical part of the piece and you have to be comfortable with your hands working independently (you play some really odd polyrhythms which are really best learnt by having both hands play "separately", but at the same time, making sure they line up on the beat, but don't worry about in between). I think the E minor nocturne is a better choice than the C#, both since it's easier (I think? I haven't actually played the C#) and because I think it's much pretty.

Thread closed!
 
 

How about THAT Davidjosepha!  It turns out he's quite fond of the C# minor nocturne.

Yeh, well, uh.

Thread closed.

[outin]

qpalqpal:
From your posts I assume we are about the same level in terms of what we can effectively study. I also want to learn proper technique to be able play music I like fluently and I don't think it's possible without gradually developing your skills through easier pieces. I hope you get a proper classical teacher too one day. It might be quite a shock though, if you have developed a "different" (don't want to say bad) technique. Some people will disagree and just learn the complete works of Chopin and Scriabin when they start on the piano, but there are quite a few examples in YT how romantic music can be butchered...

I also studied the Clementi 36-1 and I think you should finish it. I don't really like this type of music, so I didn't have the stamina to memorize it, but I still use the 3rd movement as warm up since it was easy to memorize. It is the easiest of the 3 movements IMO, even though faster there's a lot of repetition.

I wish I could like Bach because it seems to be the way to learn good technique. But I just can't, I find it extremely boring
So I play Scarlatti instead, which I love. You shoud start exploring the easier sonatas, check out the Pianostreet files, there are lost of them in grade 5.

Some other pieces I am going to work on with my teacher this Autumn:
Chopin prelude nr4 (I already learned the notes last year, so it's not difficult, but now I want to learn it better)
Chopin waltz A minor (post.) (I really need to work on chord leaps)
Satie Gymnopedia nr3 (more work on chords)
Some short pieces by César Franck
Diabelli sonatina in F (I really hate the piece but I am not ready to give up yet. Probably will never get past the 1st movement.)

So my advice is to forget the Chopin Etudes for now and learn pieces that are graded 5-6 (and even easier ones that you like, that will help your sight reading).

[j_menz]

So my advice ...

Is good.

Except the Diabelli. It's a horrible piece.

@outin: Get it over as quick and painlessly as possible. Investigate suing your teacher for pain and suffering.

@qpalqpal: Avoid it. Cross the street if you see it coming. Buy spray!

[outin]

Except the Diabelli. It's a horrible piece.

@outin: Get it over as quick and painlessly as possible. Investigate suing your teacher for pain and suffering.

@qpalqpal: Avoid it. Cross the street if you see it coming. Buy spray!

Are we talking about the same one? There are two, the one I refer to is the easier one 168-1.
It seems to be impossible for me to figure out a working fingering for the 1st movement. I can play it in small parts, but cannot put it all together, there's always some place where I get stuck.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I wish I could like Bach because it seems to be the way to learn good technique. But I just can't, I find it extremely boring

Hey, don't frown!  Embrace it!  You are on the right path my friend.  

*Evil laugh*  Everything is going according to plan...

[outin]

Hey, don't frown!  Embrace it!  You are on the right path my friend.  

Fortunately I am mature enough to not feel insecure about my opinions or my taste level 

[qpalqpal]

@outin you are exactly my level! I would argue that I know some more intermediate pieces, but disregard that, that doesn't count. Starting September, both of us should make a thread on level 5/6 Chopin, you show me yours (recording), and me too! I will learn the Prelude certainly, the Cantabile in B flat major etc

Happy playing,

Esteban

[outin]

Starting September, both of us should make a thread on level 5/6 Chopin, you show me yours (recording), and me too!

We can certainly try

I am a very slow memoriser and it takes me a long time to learn the notes when learning new pieces. So I don't want to work on too complicated pieces with my teacher. What I need her to teach me is the technique and touch to produce a good sound and how to play effortlessly. This can be achieved by playing something easier much faster than playing only pieces that are a constant struggle. I have accepted the fact that the learning process will take years and of course it will never be finished.

I have lots of other pieces I have worked on every now and then by myself, but I have consciously avoided the more difficult works of my favorite composers because I worry that I might not be able to enjoy the pieces anymore if I get frustrated in the learning process.

[qpalqpal]

I understand. Well, let's see if we can get some Chopin under our belts during the fall

[davidjosepha]

oops, delete this.

[scherzo123]

BACH IS A FUNDAMENTAL TO BUILDING GOOD PIANO TECHNIQUE. 

[qpalqpal]

How so? asjpiano told us that it is for composition almost solely, and to know "theory and etc.

[scherzo123]

Yes, but it is good for technique as well.

[qpalqpal]

Okay, good. Im taking on a couple of pieces, so here they are:

1st Bach Invention in C major

Chopin Prelude in E minor no. 4

Chopin Cantabile


Im going to keep looking to see for etudes that are NOT Chopin. Sorry, @scherzo123, I will ABSOLUTELY keep your advice and use it, but way later down the road, in at least a year.

[outin]

I understand. Well, let's see if we can get some Chopin under our belts during the fall

I never really considered the Cantabile before, because it is not actually my style, but it is really short and has a lot leaps with chords, so it would fit my study plan this fall. So I think I'll start on it too

It will take me some time to learn the notes though, since I have quite a few pieces now. And the Scarlatti sonata I'm working on (K434) is 5 pages long...

[scherzo123]

I played the same invention  !  Yeah...sorry...keep my information on Chopin's etudes for later. As for other etudes...Czerny's etudes are pretty good...Scriabin is out of the picture...aren't you working on Bach's Prelude BWV847? THAT'S REALLY GOOD FOR TECHNIQUE. I'm working on it, it's so helpful. The fugue is fun, but probably too hard for your level. Maybe you can also take on the Bach Prelude BWV846. It's famous and not too hard.

[qpalqpal]

@outin YES!!!!! Please! IT's a beautiful piece, so simple and romantic. Imagine laying d0wn in a field with the woman of your dreams (or man). That;s what it sounds like for me.

[qpalqpal]

And for now... Ill see, I Don't like bach at all, so  I ll approach him little by little.

[outin]

@outin YES!!!!! Please! IT's a beautiful piece, so simple and romantic. Imagine laying d0wn in a field with the woman of your dreams (or man). That;s what it sounds like for me.

Man, please
I normally like pieces that are somewhat darker in spirit. I'll need to look for a softer part of myself to be able to play this one...

[qpalqpal]

Its VERY soft. Not techniqely, but like heart wise. It sounds like a piece for a very gentle person, very soft in the heart, Ahh!

[outin]

I'll try to be softer then

BTW. Have you considered playing a nocturne by Field?

[49410enrique]

while we vote for nocturnes, i'll bite.

Francis Poulenc - Nocturne n°4 in C minor  (sometimes called 'phantom ball', has a beautiful yet erie quality to it, i can see shadowy semi transparent glowing figures dancing about in a dark ball room illuminated only by moonlight....)
love this little piece. short, shouldn't be too much technically, musically/interpretation and 'mood' wise, there's the challenge here

[qpalqpal]

@outin Yes I have considered that, now that you mention it. Not seriously consider, but I have heard them. What do you think about it.

[qpalqpal]

@49410enrique I don't want to be rude, but I really don't like that music. It not the worse I have heard, shoenberg is, but still,  I would rather die then learn that. Sorry 

[outin]

@outin Yes I have considered that, now that you mention it. Not seriously consider, but I have heard them. What do you think about it.

Some of them are very pretty. I think nr 10 in E minor would be the one to start with. Maybe next spring, I already have much to work with.

Oh, and I REALLY like the Nocturne in E flat by Glinka. But that will have to wait...

Speaking of nocturnes, there's this rather unknown Polish (?) composer Dobrzynski (not sure of the spelling) who wrote a few nice ones too.

[outin]

@49410enrique I don't want to be rude, but I really don't like that music. It not the worse I have heard, shoenberg is, but still,  I would rather die then learn that. Sorry 

I think you are just too young to appreciate something like that. Maybe in 10 years you have changed your mind and then it will be easy to learn as you will be an experienced pianist

[scherzo123]

Ooohhhh...I like Glinka's Nocturnes.

[qpalqpal]

WEll...Ill look over these nocturnes see what I like. VERY NICE advice, Field has nice music, as well as Dobrzynski, check out Faure.

[scherzo123]

Debussy "The Girl With Flaxen Hair" Prelude

[49410enrique]

@49410enrique I don't want to be rude, but I really don't like that music. It not the worse I have heard, shoenberg is, but still,  I would rather die then learn that. Sorry 

no offense, really it's not like i wrote it. i was just shocked /puzzled! you mentioned Schoenberg, i was like OMG did i accidently link to the wrong video incorrectly (thinking perhaps I accidentally copied to something atonal or completely inappropraite for the thread), i was releieved to see i did link the intended video. i don't understand the reaction to it, and really you can like what you like, no need to explain it to me or apologize, but it was nice of you to do so.

i'll think a little bit considering this as a reflection of where your particular musical sensibilities might lie and try to suggest something more up your alley later on.