"Sightplaying", memorizing? Something in between?

[davidjosepha]

oh god lets hope not..   I was angling for that the other sites somehow had a higher google page rank by location - I guess that was voided by having half as many results.

You just keep trying to make excuses for forgetting to google the second most obvious thing, don't you?

[outin]

This is what I was hoping you wouldn't notice..  didnt even think of the number of results at all..

Some people really should get a life...

[ajspiano]

Some people really should get a life...

Doesn't it seem like the fact that I didn't put the effort in to fix the problem suggests that I realise how futile an act it was..

What I did do took maybe 10-15 seconds to create and upload so I'm sure the rest of my life won't suffer too much...  Also, since most of the time I spend on PS is while I'm also reading and or producing content that I can use when teaching it doesn't strike me as being time used poorly. - even if I do occasionally (regularly) get distracted by humorous pursuits.

[outin]

Doesn't it seem like the fact that I didn't put the effort in to fix the problem suggests that I realise how futile an act it was..

What I did do took maybe 10-15 seconds to create and upload so I'm sure the rest of my life won't suffer too much...  Also, since most of the time I spend on PS is while I'm also reading and or producing content that I can use when teaching it doesn't strike me as being time used poorly. - even if I do occasionally (regularly) get distracted by humorous pursuits.

Should have used  

There are things I do sometimes that would make yours seem like you're saving the earth  

EDIT:
This one's my favorite:
How many hits do you get if you google your name (First Last) in " " ?

Today I only got 1790?...What the ..ll??

And this is important...Is the first one actually you?

[davidjosepha]

Nearly 200,000,000, and no, the first one is definitely not me.

[j_menz]

Should have used  

There are things I do sometimes that would make yours seem like you're saving the earth  

EDIT:
This one's my favorite:
How many hits do you get if you google your name (First Last) in " " ?

Today I only got 1790?...What the ..ll??

And this is important...Is the first one actually you?

4810 and yes.

Does that count as two questions?

[outin]

yes.

Me too

Does that count as two questions?

Wrong thread

[outin]

Nearly 200,000,000, and no, the first one is definitely not me.

Then how many are there before it is?

Take your time 

[davidjosepha]

No way in hell am I looking for my name. I probably won't show up anywhere in there since I don't have anything under my real name on the internet, although it's not hard to guess my name based on my username

[outin]

No way in hell am I looking for my name. I probably won't show up anywhere in there since I don't have anything under my real name on the internet, although it's not hard to guess my name based on my username

Spoilsport 

[ajspiano]

9,560,000  results.

I'm number 10. I had no idea I was cracking the front page. WIN.

If I add the word "piano" I'm the first 6 results, and results 8-10. Boo ya.

[outin]

If I add the word "piano" I'm the first 6 results, and results 8-10. Boo ya.

I'm still first! 

How did I manage that??

[ajspiano]

I'm still first! 

How did I manage that??

..you photoshopped a screen shot?

[j_menz]

Wrong thread

Damn!. I need coffee. 

[davidjosepha]

..you photoshopped a screen shot?

that was you

[ajspiano]

that was you

..

MMWWAAAHAHAH HA HA HA!! 

[davidjosepha]

If this is any indication, you are 3/7ths evil, 3/7ths cool, and 1/7th grinning from ear to ear.

Is this how you would describe your personality?

[ajspiano]

If this is any indication, you are 3/7ths evil, 3/7ths cool, and 1/7th grinning from ear to ear.

Is this how you would describe your personality?

it may be an acceptable description of my state of mind in that moment.

I don't believe that I can reasonably divide my entire personality into 7ths, using only those 3 traits.

[lostinidlewonder]

I would say that of all our senses, we get the most information from our eyes.... Thus, it's easier to memorize something visually than it is by any other sense.

If sight was so powerful one could learn a piece merely by thinking about it and looking at the piano without touching it. We need to feel the movements and hear it, these are the most important issues from my experience (from myself and my students). Of course being able to see a pattern with our eyes and sight reading music is important but it is not a necessity you can still do this with the feeling in ones hands and the sound your ears listen to (blind pianist for example).

Can you imagine a world without sight?

Turn off the lights or play with your eyes closed you can experience it. Of course learning a piece you have never played before without sight is difficult to start with unless you had some braille type piano music or someone to read it for you. Many piece I play I can play without even looking at the keyboard.

Their minds work in a completely different way than others in the way the sense the world. Unless you are blind yourself, I really don't see how anyone can speak for a blind person.

I can speak for a blind person because they cannot see the piano with their eyes, thus visual cues are useless for them, that is only logical sense. Thus if visual cues where so powerful and all encompassing in learning a musical instrument blind people would not be playing, but this is just not the case. Thus why I said visual cues are NOT universally required to play the piano, but things like muscular memory, sound memory certainly are.

However, muscle memory is most certainly the weakest form of memory and the most likely to fail. You aren't even using your senses.

Muscular memory is a sense, a Touch sense. Also we do not only consider muscular memory as the memory used to control pieces only, it also relates to our memory of what it feels like to play all sorts of scales, chords, co-ordinations between hands (x vs y notes), sharing of notes between hands, rhythms etc etc. If you do not have a keen sense of memory in your hands every time you sight a building blocks in music you merely will recreate the wheel every time and overload yourself with conscious/visual observations.
 

You are unconsciously going through a motion. Now is that really the way music should be made?

Of course muscular memory should not isolated from our musical interpretation. With stronger muscular memory one can focus on the sound production more intently.

As for other forms of memory, I'm evaluating their strengths and weaknesses.

Often these weaknesses are only apparent if you isolate the tools and look at them if they where in action alone. Most of our learning experience however is a combination of these.

Now for the most ridiculous of your claims (not that your post didn't have merit, but I found this absolutely ridiculous)

Your opinion of whether something I said was ridiculous or not really isn't constructive but I will read what you say here as you disagree with/misunderstand me which is fine.

If your own intellect cannot keep up with a piece, you've got practice to do. The human brain can send messages at roughly 1000mph. Human fingers probably travel at around 10-20mph at the fastest (rough estimate). You underestimate the brain my friend. The mind should always be faster than the fingers. Otherwise, you are depending solely on muscle memory and as I explained above, that's not the way to go. It's quite frankly an insult to the music.

I said "Intellect cannot keep up with rapid pieces, you simply cannot sight read complicated fast music at tempo without muscular memory."

Which means if you are caught up sight reading details of complicated pieces which are fast tempo you simply will reach a saturation point where you can no longer keep up. Or are you saying you can sight read everything? John Ogdon even with his legendary sight reading skills could not sight read ALL of Sorabji's OC with masterful clarity his recordings prove it (but that is not to say that he didn't do an amazing job of it).

The point is that you simply cannot play at your technical maximum if you rely heavily on sight reading and visual aids. If most of what you play is not absorbed into an automated muscular response you simply will overload yourself with information and be unable to deal with it.

[lostinidlewonder]

I mean I can read a piece hundreds or thousands of times and still not remember a single note. I do not see this as a problem requiring intervention.

It might not be a problem for you, but you certainly might benefit being able to remember a single note to start with and try to build from there lol.

[j_menz]

John Ogdon even with his legendary sight reading skills could not sight read ALL of Sorabji's OC with masterful clarity his recordings prove it (but that is not to say that he didn't do an amazing job of it).

That may well be true, but no one yet has done it from memory. At all.

[j_menz]

you certainly might benefit being able to remember a single note to start with and try to build from there lol.

I doubt it. Remarkably few of the pieces I play start with a single note.

[lostinidlewonder]

That may well be true, but no one yet has done it from memory. At all.

Yeah it is an extreme example to give. I am sure when we hear the first persons recording to do this it will be an amazing experience.

I doubt it. Remarkably few of the pieces I play start with a single note.

Well if it starts with a chord maybe you can remember one of the notes of the chord.

[j_menz]

Well if it starts with a chord maybe you can remember one of the notes of the chord.

A lot of them have an Eb in there somewhere (or is it a D#  ).

Not sure that is much help, I'm afraid. I know too many chords with an Eb in it for just knowing it's there to give me any assistance.

[werq34ac]

If sight was so powerful one could learn a piece merely by thinking about it and looking at the piano without touching it. We need to feel the movements and hear it, these are the most important issues from my experience (from myself and my students). Of course being able to see a pattern with our eyes and sight reading music is important but it is not a necessity you can still do this with the feeling in ones hands and the sound your ears listen to (blind pianist for example).
Turn off the lights or play with your eyes closed you can experience it. Of course learning a piece you have never played before without sight is difficult to start with unless you had some braille type piano music or someone to read it for you. Many piece I play I can play without even looking at the keyboard.

How about closing your eyes for the rest of your life? How about never having seen at all? Your brain develops in a completely different way. Try wearing a blindfold for an entire day and see if you can function. Blind people have to adapt and use what they can in order to function.
I'm not saying it's the most important tool in piano. But there is no question that our most powerful sense and the one we rely on most (in everyday life). And since we have it, why not use it when we play the piano?

If sight was so powerful one could learn a piece merely by thinking about it and looking at the piano without touching it.

Actually, I've heard there's a teacher that sometimes requires students to study a score for 3 days without touching a piano. Then they are to perform it from memory. I'm not sure about the merits of this, but most certainly it proves it's possible. Irrelevant to what we're talking about though.

Muscular memory is a sense, a Touch sense. Also we do not only consider muscular memory as the memory used to control pieces only, it also relates to our memory of what it feels like to play all sorts of scales, chords, co-ordinations between hands (x vs y notes), sharing of notes between hands, rhythms etc etc. If you do not have a keen sense of memory in your hands every time you sight a building blocks in music you merely will recreate the wheel every time and overload yourself with conscious/visual observations.

I never said muscle memory isn't important. Just that it's incredibly unreliable on its own. Muscle memory is pretty much why we practice technique, although I suppose you practicing technique could also involve training your ear and training your sense of touch.

As for this touch you speak of, wouldn't that be touch memory as opposed to muscle memory? Last time I checked, your sense of touch has nothing to do with your muscles. But I admit, I forgot about touch memory. It's how it feels. In terms of the real world, it's not as useful as the sense of sight, but on the piano, touch is much more important than sight.

Of course muscular memory should not isolated from our musical interpretation. With stronger muscular memory one can focus on the sound production more intently.

All muscle memory does for your interpretation is your ability to play it.

Often these weaknesses are only apparent if you isolate the tools and look at them if they where in action alone. Most of our learning experience however is a combination of these.

And yet your original post said that memorization comes from muscle memory. I'm saying we need a combination. I'm analyzing each part of this combination, not saying one is the only one you need. Anyway, I'm glad we agree on something.

I said "Intellect cannot keep up with rapid pieces, you simply cannot sight read complicated fast music at tempo without muscular memory."

Which means if you are caught up sight reading details of complicated pieces which are fast tempo you simply will reach a saturation point where you can no longer keep up. Or are you saying you can sight read everything? John Ogdon even with his legendary sight reading skills could not sight read ALL of Sorabji's OC with masterful clarity his recordings prove it (but that is not to say that he didn't do an amazing job of it).

Maybe I should have clarified. I was talking about performance and memorization. Not sightreading. Even in fast pieces, you should always have an awareness of what you are doing. Relying solely on muscle memory means you are shutting your brain off and letting your fingers just go on their own. Fingers don't have brains. Fingers don't have emotion. You let muscle memory be the only thing then it's not worth listening to. I'm not saying muscle memory is worthless, just on it's own. You need muscle memory so you don't trip up on a passage. You should always know what note you are playing and how you should play it. Sometimes when it's muscle memory doing the driving, you aren't always aware of these things. Sorry if that was a bit repetitive.

As for sightreading, now my sightreading is decent, but it's not phenomenal. So no I can't sight read every piece known to man. Actually I probably can't sight read most of piano literature. Bull through them at 50% tempo yes, but not sightread them brilliantly.
Yes reading fast pieces requires muscle memory but also visual memory and aural memory. Visual memory allows you to recognize the patterns that your muscle memory knows so well. Aural memory let's you know when it doesn't sound right. But I wasn't talking about sightreading in my previous posts.

The point is that you simply cannot play at your technical maximum if you rely heavily on sight reading and visual aids. If most of what you play is not absorbed into an automated muscular response you simply will overload yourself with information and be unable to deal with it.

My point is that don't let your muscles be the only thing playing the notes.



We haven't exactly discussed aural memory. You agree that it's vital to good performance?

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm not saying it's the most important tool in piano. But there is no question that our most powerful sense and the one we rely on most (in everyday life). And since we have it, why not use it when we play the piano?

Sure you can use sight but it is not necessary to playing an instrument at a high level where muscular and sound memory are.

I never said muscle memory isn't important. Just that it's incredibly unreliable on its own.

I disagree. I do not think about my physical action when I ride a bicycle, eat with knife and fork, turn a door knob or play a phrase of music I know well etc etc. And because I don't think about it I don't fall off my bike, stab my eye with a fork, fumble to open a door or forget how to play a phrase.

As for this touch you speak of, wouldn't that be touch memory as opposed to muscle memory?

Well a piano doesn't change physical properties or change temperature so you do miss some of the overall touch experience. Muscular memory is a more direct description of memorizing mechanical movement at the piano by movement, people who are numb cannot acquire muscular memory, I had one student who had one numb hand from an accident and he could not memorize via muscular memory but could with the other.

..but on the piano, touch is much more important than sight.

And it provides us great joy to play the piano doesn't it? As Mozart said once, "fingers like honey", I like that description.

All muscle memory does for your interpretation is your ability to play it.

I don't however memorize exactly how to play a piece but just the notes and movement to produce the estimated volume control. Because we play on many types of pianos and room sizes  it will not be good enough to always play the same way. So I find muscular memory when it is strong allows me to focus more on the sound production and less on the notes and technique.

And yet your original post said that memorization comes from muscle memory.

There are three types of memory in learning musical instruments something I have posted a number of times over like seven years on here. I don't suggest an isolation of them exclusively.

Maybe I should have clarified. I was talking about performance and memorization. Not sightreading.

Performing by memory or reading a score? If you perform and consciously consider everything you are doing you will simply overload yourself wi information. It is highly ineffective to me it is like playing a game of chess and considering every possible move even if it is a bad one. You just end up thinking too much unnecessarily.

Even in fast pieces, you should always have an awareness of what you are doing. Relying solely on muscle memory means you are shutting your brain off and letting your fingers just go on their own.

But this is the joy of playing a piece you have mastered, to play without having to worry about the fingers, you simply enjoy the good relaxed feeling your hand produces and the lovely sound that comes forth. Thinking about it in logical details is just mentally taxing and only something I do when I am learning the piece. You can summon conscious thought to recover from mistakes and this helps keep muscular memory in line but to constantly bind muscular memory to conscious thought is silly IMHO.

You should always know what note you are playing and how you should play it. Sometimes when it's muscle memory doing the driving, you aren't always aware of these things.

On the contrary I believe strongly that improved muscular memory allows us to become more aware of the sound we are producing.

Yes reading fast pieces requires muscle memory but also visual memory and aural memory. Visual memory allows you to recognize the patterns that your muscle memory knows so well. Aural memory let's you know when it doesn't sound right. But I wasn't talking about sightreading in my previous posts.

I think this is ok when you are learning a piece but to remain in this situation is ineffective IMO.

We haven't exactly discussed aural memory. You agree that it's vital to good performance?

Sound memory is very important, at high levels of training what you hear from within the mind effects your muscular memory and conscious observation of the music. How many of us replay our favorite pieces or pieces we learn through hour heads while we are not at the piano, this is excellent to train ourselves to memorize a piece and get to know its dynamics, emotion etc, it literally becomes a part of us through sound memory.

[werq34ac]

Sure you can use sight but it is not necessary to playing an instrument at a high level where muscular and sound memory are.

It's not necessary, but it certainly does help a lot. Keep in mind blind people have heightened senses of touch and hearing, and they don't call it a handicap for nothing.

I disagree. I do not think about my physical action when I ride a bicycle, eat with knife and fork, turn a door knob or play a phrase of music I know well etc etc. And because I don't think about it I don't fall off my bike, stab my eye with a fork, fumble to open a door or forget how to play a phrase.

You also don't ride a bike with human expression and emotion.

Well a piano doesn't change physical properties or change temperature so you do miss some of the overall touch experience. Muscular memory is a more direct description of memorizing mechanical movement at the piano by movement, people who are numb cannot acquire muscular memory, I had one student who had one numb hand from an accident and he could not memorize via muscular memory but could with the other.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Could you clarify? I mean the missing the overall touch experience. Muscles don't have much to do with your sensory nerves. The rest of it I get. Numb hands=muscles not working well.

I don't however memorize exactly how to play a piece but just the notes and movement to produce the estimated volume control. Because we play on many types of pianos and room sizes  it will not be good enough to always play the same way. So I find muscular memory when it is strong allows me to focus more on the sound production and less on the notes and technique.

No matter the piano, you should always be able to play the same sound (with some degree of what a piano is capable of and what it is not). That is why aural memory is so crucial. You need to have the sound in your head before you play and as you play. Listening while you play allows you to adjust to a different piano.

Performing by memory or reading a score? If you perform and consciously consider everything you are doing you will simply overload yourself wi information. It is highly ineffective to me it is like playing a game of chess and considering every possible move even if it is a bad one. You just end up thinking too much unnecessarily.

Personally, I find that if something isn't memorized, it's probably not ready to perform either (for me, I"m not talking about others). Plus page turns are a pain. I've had more than one performance marred by a page turning issue. As for the chess analogy, if you don't consider the bad moves, you might miss something that only appears to be bad. Like a pin or a diversion. Actually I'm not very good at chess so I can't really say much about it.

But this is the joy of playing a piece you have mastered, to play without having to worry about the fingers, you simply enjoy the good relaxed feeling your hand produces and the lovely sound that comes forth. Thinking about it in logical details is just mentally taxing and only something I do when I am learning the piece. You can summon conscious thought to recover from mistakes and this helps keep muscular memory in line but to constantly bind muscular memory to conscious thought is silly IMHO.

It's a sort of auto-pilot. How are you supposed to shape a melody when you don't even know what note you are playing? Actually I don't think of every single note. I think of them in gestures and how each leads into the next. Muscle memory has to do with it, but I'm aware of every single note and I'm not overwhelmed by the sheer number.

I think this is ok when you are learning a piece but to remain in this situation is ineffective IMO.

I think we have different definitions of sightreading. My definition is where you are literally reading by sight. You either haven't looked at the score ever or you can't play a passage from memory. I think your definition of sightreading is playing from the score. I find that once the learning stages are past, the piece is already memorized. Unless it's Bach, where I find muscle memory is almost no help at all.



Just a personal example, I'm a lot more focused when I'm aware of which note I'm playing. Not thinking of, but aware. It's not that I'm not using muscle memory, but I listen for the notes and how I want them played. It allows my brain to function much faster than my fingers. It also allows my brain to work on multiple layers, no idea why but it just does.

[theodore]

I wonder if I can get any tips, using muscle memory, in the spatial movements in getting to a note which is a long distance away on the keyboard.  Many times both hands have such widely spaced skips and one can only glance in one direction at a time.

Is there a drill which helps in spatially memorizing the distance factor ?  This is a problem for me when I have skips larger than 2 octaves. Any ideas from experienced sight readers ??

[j_menz]

I wonder if I can get any tips, using muscle memory, in the spatial movements in getting to a note which is a long distance away on the keyboard.  Many times both hands have such widely spaced skips and one can only glance in one direction at a time.

Is there a drill which helps in spatially memorizing the distance factor ?  This is a problem for me when I have skips larger than 2 octaves. Any ideas from experienced sight readers ??

Practice them slowly building up speed but preserving accuracy. Do it without "glancing"; to sightread such intervals you really don't have time to look at all. It takes time. It may be of help to start with intervals you are comfortable with and move out.

[werq34ac]

I wonder if I can get any tips, using muscle memory, in the spatial movements in getting to a note which is a long distance away on the keyboard.  Many times both hands have such widely spaced skips and one can only glance in one direction at a time.

Is there a drill which helps in spatially memorizing the distance factor ?  This is a problem for me when I have skips larger than 2 octaves. Any ideas from experienced sight readers ??

I'd say this spacial recognition works only for intervals under 2 octaves. I would actually look at my hands for this. And if necessity dictates I can't look at my hands then I would actually feel the keys under my fingers before playing. This is actually how blind pianist Nobuyuki Tsuji plays large jumps. If he has time, he will feel the black keys to ensure he plays the right notes.

[howlegh]

You might try looking at music not as individual notes but at a higher level than that.  For example, learn chord progressions.  It is a lot easier to look at four bars and memorize 4 chords rather than a few hundred notes.

[atinm]

How about both sight-reading and memorizing? Almost every video on youtube of pianists in an ensemble has the pianist sight-reading, even famous ones like Martha Argerich (

- she must be somewhat familiar with the music given who she is, but most probably doesn't have it memorized). If you are going to play in chamber music ensembles, it is almost required that you be able to sight-read and play what you are reading well. Sight-reading and playing well/interpreting well aren't supposed to be mutually exclusive skills. It just happens that many people aren't very good sight-readers compared to their grade level, but this is not a good thing as there is infinitely more piano music in the world than one can memorize, even at one's own grade level!