Let's be Techy- The Tecnique Patterns Thread

[49410enrique]

So I thought this might be a good thread to launch ina similar manner to what some others have done with certain works/pieces of music (whether and etude or other solo).  I hope this can be a good discussion for those of us that are currently or who are inspired to begin to work (or in my case, re-work) these fundamental exercises.

I had at one piont years ago I tested out of the all of them and did very well my final technique juries but I was so sick of these things that I really didn't regularly work on them at all since , for years( a few times I revisted  certain ones as appropriate to my needs in working on a piece of music but not a systematic or organzied way of going about it all).

So I guess some ground rules, please if you will join the thread, you are asked to, like in the other threads of this nature, to record your 'performances' or progress on them. This is not a high pressure performing environment so do not feel like you have to have them mastered before posting, actually I believe that will not serve us well, it is where we stumble or have issues that the greatest opportunity for learning and improvement exists so let's embrace that. However don't just post a 'cold' messy and sloppy pattern. Slow and controlled is fine and is preferrable to fast and messy and inaccurate. So practice it some (at least, preferrably more) before posting.

I am still playiing with the ideas on how to go about my survey of all the keys. I do not quite like the 'order' of things in my manuals, so I am thinking for me at least, I will just start at a key, work all patterns and variants in that key, then possibly move on to a related key (not neccessarily a major/relative minor relationship but related in physical approach, i.e. Db and Gb, C and G, similar fingering convetions for some to most of the basics in these keys etc), the goal is to eventaully move through all 12. Some will take me much longer than others to move through depending on what are my stronger keys or practice time (I must balance time devoted to these and available practice time for piano assignments with my teacher, we are not working on these together though I can and will brings these in to her when I have worked on them for some time so she can help me improve, but most lessons will focus only on repertoire).  I will just skip to keys that my current pieces I work on are 'written in', that seems very practical too.

I don't have a solid deadline here , main goal is to improve and make progress bit by bit, it could take a year, or less, probably more. So be it.

Feel free to post if you will join in on the fun. Do not  say you'll do it and actually not. you'll be expected to post updates i.e. recordings (where you are able to record, preferrably video as the mechanics and physicality of the execution for these coupled with solid projecting tone is the most important).

[starstruck5]

I might be interested -but shooting videos for me is a real pain -I would have to record on my Digital Piano using phones and then sync a video to the sound -a right hassle.

[scherzo123]

cool 

[49410enrique]

I might be interested -but shooting videos for me is a real pain -I would have to record on my Digital Piano using phones and then sync a video to the sound -a right hassle.

yeah if audio is all you can do that's fine but from my previous experience, to really dig in and diagnost technique patterns, visuals are best, i.e. looking at hand positions, posture, strange finger shapes/tension, etc. as it can sound 'good' and not neccessarily be the best way for you to go about said pattern/execution, even things like bad fingering, etc can but again anyone and everyone is encouraged to play so whatever you can do is more than okay

[pianoplunker]

So I thought this might be a good thread to launch ina similar manner to what some others have done with certain works/pieces of music (whether and etude or other solo).  I hope this can be a good discussion for those of us that are currently or who are inspired to begin to work (or in my case, re-work) these fundamental exercises.

I had at one piont years ago I tested out of the all of them and did very well my final technique juries but I was so sick of these things that I really didn't regularly work on them at all since , for years( a few times I revisted  certain ones as appropriate to my needs in working on a piece of music but not a systematic or organzied way of going about it all).

So I guess some ground rules, please if you will join the thread, you are asked to, like in the other threads of this nature, to record your 'performances' or progress on them. This is not a high pressure performing environment so do not feel like you have to have them mastered before posting, actually I believe that will not serve us well, it is where we stumble or have issues that the greatest opportunity for learning and improvement exists so let's embrace that. However don't just post a 'cold' messy and sloppy pattern. Slow and controlled is fine and is preferrable to fast and messy and inaccurate. So practice it some (at least, preferrably more) before posting.

I am still playiing with the ideas on how to go about my survey of all the keys. I do not quite like the 'order' of things in my manuals, so I am thinking for me at least, I will just start at a key, work all patterns and variants in that key, then possibly move on to a related key (not neccessarily a major/relative minor relationship but related in physical approach, i.e. Db and Gb, C and G, similar fingering convetions for some to most of the basics in these keys etc), the goal is to eventaully move through all 12. Some will take me much longer than others to move through depending on what are my stronger keys or practice time (I must balance time devoted to these and available practice time for piano assignments with my teacher, we are not working on these together though I can and will brings these in to her when I have worked on them for some time so she can help me improve, but most lessons will focus only on repertoire).  I will just skip to keys that my current pieces I work on are 'written in', that seems very practical too.

I don't have a solid deadline here , main goal is to improve and make progress bit by bit, it could take a year, or less, probably more. So be it.

Feel free to post if you will join in on the fun. Do not  say you'll do it and actually not. you'll be expected to post updates i.e. recordings (where you are able to record, preferrably video as the mechanics and physicality of the execution for these coupled with solid projecting tone is the most important).

Well lately I have been threatening myself with Chopin Etude No 10 #1.   If I can figure out an easy way to record a video I'll try but no promises. I would love to have suggestions about how to approach it.

[49410enrique]

Well lately I have been threatening myself with Chopin Etude No 10 #1.   If I can figure out an easy way to record a video I'll try but no promises. I would love to have suggestions about how to approach it.

if you'll focus on a particular etude or piece or even a study like cramer or czerny, another thread is probaby best, as my aim/goal with this project is to have a dedication to scales, arpegios (the standard chords in all keys i.e. major and minor triads, dominant 7ths, diminished 7ths, possibly the subdominant with added 6th [one of the variants in my technique manual]), etc.

the 'easiest' way i have found is to use whatever you have that will capture video and audio i.e. inexesive digital still camera should be fine as we're not trying to 'wow' people with incredible singing soft passage work, just standard full tone F/FF technique patterns. trying not to make this hard or complicated just play a scale or arpegio, record it , post it. try to improve on it, play record, post, etc. move on ,  that sort of thing.

[pianoplunker]

if you'll focus on a particular etude or piece or even a study like cramer or czerny, another thread is probaby best, as my aim/goal with this project is to have a dedication to scales, arpegios (the standard chords in all keys i.e. major and minor triads, dominant 7ths, diminished 7ths, possibly the subdominant with added 6th [one of the variants in my technique manual]), etc.

the 'easiest' way i have found is to use whatever you have that will capture video and audio i.e. inexesive digital still camera should be fine as we're not trying to 'wow' people with incredible singing soft passage work, just standard full tone F/FF technique patterns. trying not to make this hard or complicated just play a scale or arpegio, record it , post it. try to improve on it, play record, post, etc. move on ,  that sort of thing.

Ok, I'll see about posting some scale patterns that I have done over the years. And maybe some I-IV-V chordal excersizes that I do from time to time. Thanks for clarifying, but actually I also tend to make finger excersises out of certain difficult passages but we can check that out later.

[ajspiano]

Not really sure if this is what you were looking for enrique, but I sat down to do something for this thread and this is what came out...

Ended up talking about exploring tapping, overholding and a bit of tone control (screwed that up a bit when I played so soft the note didn't sound) in the context of note transitions in C major.. ..got a bit carried away for a second at the end with a short lived improv tangent..

...which one might then apply to all scale/arpeggio/interval/fingering transitions in all keys, with a huge amount of focus dedicated to sound and feel..

..if you can spare 674.856 hours (minimum). That's the required quota out of your 10,000 before you reach a level where you may consider yourself to have reached mild mastery (I've still got a long way to go...)

[49410enrique]

Not really sure ...

that's spot on man! yeah anything along this line is game. you have already helped me before i can even get my first attempt/recording up (again fri-sun are my best days to record if i can at all), as i am CONSTANTLY trying to untrain a horrible bad habbit i have of onthe RH only, i tend to lift and curl the pinky when i don't use it. drives me nuts, am trying to address this, it will probably be very obvious on my videos, slowly but surely it is getting somewhat better but only if i really focus on it.

i really like your exercise, i think you did a smart thing with starting on C major. i think these 'white note keys' are among the more 'difficult' patterns once you get out of basic five finger type stuff (which is funny since this is the first key most 'beginners' are taught lol), so learning the hard one first then applying it accross the other keys seems very 'counter intuitive' but also if you think about it the right way to go about it.

great job!

 

[49410enrique]

apologies for the late update, practice on the patterns has started but has not been as consistent as i want or would have hoped (thank you school work and increased demands of assigned pieces for lessons, those have to take priority, the tech patterns i use to fill in the the time where there is some left).

still, so far the main challenge has been the scale in 6ths and 10ths and 3rds in contrary motion (the 'grand scale' i.e. from bottom of keybaord, up two octaves in similar motion, contrarymotion two octave then back, then up the remaining two octaves, then down two octaves, contrary motion two octaves, then down the remaining two octaves).

i am pretty solid on the unisons in in grand scale pattern and also in unison on 3rds 6ths and 10ths but the grand scale on these intervals has been most problematic indeed! i think it is just a familiarization issue, i.e. it's very new to me as i never did this variant i.e. different intervals in grand scale pattern, i hope to get it more natural feelin soon.

i will try and record next weekend, last weekend was a super busy recording pieces i'm working on for performance practice.


also, i have started looking at this chord, arpegio wise i initially tested out of all patterns to include the dominant 7ths in unision and parrallel motion (the variants will come later!), but i looked at this last week and today, it can be quite awkward at times but my etude variant on op 10 no 1 has helped this immensely! that is i had looked at these a couple years ago and found them horrendously awkward all over,now, meh not so much, still a bit problematic if i don't concentrate throughout the patterns but they are coming along. recording to come soon.


see pix
note my guide illustrates to 2 octaves, i use a 4 octave standard i.e. i add the other two to the illustrated guide as I do with my scales to

i only looked at the similar motion and unisons, i did not do from different notes (i.e. RH F, LH A, etc) nor did i even attempt the contrary motion ones yet!

still to explore and begin working out, key of C scales in double thirds and double sixths! holy cow those are hard....

[chopin2015]

Haha, my problem is way worse. I have a breathing problem. It's stress...I'm in acceptable shape but when I try to play fast it is disturbing. I CAN play fast and even relatively clean if I practice right, but my breathing is out of control and sometimes I get a serious head rush if I accomplish something, because I was probably fixing to like suffocate or something. No one knows what it is. I will think of something to work on, like scales. I probably need to rework the scale runs at the end of op 23 Chopin. Is that acceptable?

[danhuyle]

What playing chromatic scales in thirds? It's used in Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody no15.

Although I haven't learned it, I can make a video to show the challenges with playing chromatic scales in thirds.

Another thing about learning scales, or any other technical exercise, is the application for it. There's no point learning if it's not used in pieces.

Perhaps you could recommend pieces to use these techniques as a guide? Look forward to the videos

[chopin2015]

Well just some of the few I know forsure are the ballade and winter wind. Winter wind has some interesting parts for the left hand, too! It also ends in the a melodic minor scale. These ascend in both left hand an right(octave above left) simultaneously.

[49410enrique]

What playing chromatic scales in thirds? It's used in Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody no15.

Although I haven't learned it, I can make a video to show the challenges with playing chromatic scales in thirds.

Another thing about learning scales, or any other technical exercise, is the application for it. There's no point learning if it's not used in pieces.

Perhaps you could recommend pieces to use these techniques as a guide? Look forward to the videos

"What playing chromatic scales in thirds? It's used in Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody no15."
no, not just chromatic scales, i am not super focused on that one at the moment i am talking about standard major and minor scales in double thirds and sixths, (see pic 1)

"Although I haven't learned it, I can make a video to show the challenges with playing chromatic scales in thirds. "
super generous of you, i'm okay for now as i have a very good few techniquue manuals and i can consult my piano professor/private lesson teacher on them as i work on them (i plan to request regular lesson time dedicated to this in spring 2013)


"Another thing about learning scales, or any other technical exercise, is the application for it. There's no point learning if it's not used in pieces. "
i respect your opinion, i wholeheartedly disagree. i won't clog up the thread with my reasons why, only that at least for me personally i have found multiple and regular benefits to my work on patterns that i did not neccessarily see exactly as practiced in repertoire.  there is much carryover beyond the literal copy of the 'pattern' itself. but again there will be arguments to both sides, each with valid assumptions, that's fine. i dont' need to be 'right' in that conversation.

"Perhaps you could recommend pieces to use these techniques as a guide? Look forward to the videos"
hmm yeah as i come across examples i will try and remember to post. as was said above, i.e the chopin ballade no 1 op 23 has your standard g melodic minor  in similar motion by 10ths, that one is a literal copy of the standard scale pattern i had practiced years ago, when i came across this in the piece i literally just played it bam with no difficulty as the 'tool' was already in my box i just had to take it out.

please continue to participate and contribute to the thread, the more the better! im sure others might be interested in your approach and perhaps tutorial videos if they request it

thanks for the great comments!

[chopin2015]

Thanks for the attachments!! I will give those a shot, I usually only practice arpeggios...and scales in the key of the piece that I am working on at the moment. 

[49410enrique]

Thanks for the attachments!! I will give those a shot, I usually only practice arpeggios...and scales in the key of the piece that I am working on at the moment. 

that's a super good idea. im actually very pressed for time between my pieces and academics. i may actually just try to do that at first so i don't spread myself too thin, as im working on a pretty decent no of pieces it would definately keep me busy but not so much that i take neccessary time away from practicing pieces I have to perform to play patterns but i will still progress in revisiting them. and if i make faster progress than anticipated i can always add more.

i've been struggling with how to organize what keys in what order and such. very good idea, especially considering that we can work on keys the pieces we work on modulate to. that opens up even more patterns.

i think i'll actually write out a plan and schedule for all this stuff, i'm super bad at organizing and planning this kind of stuff...

[chopin2015]

Best advice I can add to that is Improv in the key your piece that you are learning-is in.

[ajspiano]

Last night I was fiddling with harmonising a line with a scale (semi-contrapuntal) to facilitate baroque improv.

The simplest example would be as follows, both voices start on the one note - the upper voice acends, the lower voice descends one note before ascending, which results in harmony in thirds acending and 6ths decending.. in a slightly more musically common way that just playing a scale in thirds perhaps. Fragments of this type of arrangement or shift in the direction of voices are found a lot in the bach inventions.

eg -

upper voice
C D E F G A B C B A G F E D C B C

lower voice
C B C D E F G A B C B A G F E D C

[chopin2015]

That's awesome! I'm not going to lie...I like Scarlatti more so...but my keyboard has Harpsichord sounds...I just love Harpsichord mechanics and sound!!

[keypeg]

Not really sure if this is what you were looking for enrique, but I sat down to do something for this thread and this is what came out...

Ended up talking about exploring tapping, overholding and a bit of tone control ...

Watching this was very timely for me.  I originally played self-taught many years ago, with a rather motionless hand and only the fingers moving.  Restarting now, I first learned to have motion in the wrists and arms for chords, and now I'm at single notes like in scales.  I'm not quite there yet.  My original finger motion was curvy and probably 19th century.  I'm getting in the door with weight transfer which feels more like what I learned to do with chords, and I know it's a bit of both. 

So when I watched your video, the first part gave a finger-only motion, which is what I used to have, but this felt good.  One finger can go down while the others are relaxed and you feel where the motion is coming from.  Then when the finger goes down part ways, and the hand-arm supports the motion, that is this "little bit of both" that I've been looking for.  What really interested me was how your hand and wrist etc. moved (like a rotation) when you changed fingers.  This is probably something you do anyways rather than what you were practicing.  This is the kind of thing I am working on right now.

[starstruck5]

   I didn't realise the harpsichord was capable of sounding like a factory hooter -even the normal sound it makes annoys me -

[chopin2015]

Hahahahah have you ever listened to jazz played on a pipe organ? It is so scary!!!