steps to became a pro pianist

[ladychopin]

hello people!
i would like to hear what do you think that the steps that each pianist should go through to became a pro pianist (please don't make a any shortcuts!)
I mean
on the begining he should learn scales and czerny etudes
2.bla bla bla
3.bla bla bla
4. chopin preludes and bach inventions
5. beethoven rondo or any sonata (no 1-no7)
6. chopin valses, liszt etudes
7.greig and shostakovich preludes
8.bla bla bla
9.concero
10. debuesy preludes
11
12
13
14
15 rach concerto
16 chopin all 4 scherzo
17 tchaikovsky concerto 1
I  don't think that this is the order, it was just to make my wish clear
THANK YOU

[mikeowski]

1. Get a good teacher
2. Play what you like while picking progressively harder pieces, musically aswell as technically. Preferably from a lot of different composers. Practice with an active brain.
3. See where it leads you.

Also, forget scales and czerny, is my humble opinion.
Instead play Bach. Alot of Bach. That makes up for czerny and scales a thousand times over and doesn't turn your brain to mush.

[quantum]

Also, forget scales and czerny, is my humble opinion.
Instead play Bach. Alot of Bach. That makes up for czerny and scales a thousand times over and doesn't turn your brain to mush.

Very much agree with that!


Also don't become one of these pianists that can play Rach 3, but have no idea how interact with a small ensemble.  Work with vocalists and instrumentalists.  Play duets, join a trio or quartet.  Take up a secondary instrument, as it will help you be a more rounded musician and teach you more about piano than you may realize.  Learn to improvise, especially if you want to  be a classical musician.  There is a considerable fear of and lack of improvisation skills in today classical artists.  Improvisation is not some mysterious magic, it can be learned and studied just as one does a Chopin Etude. 

[ladychopin]

No, I am already learning how to play the piano for 4 years (BTW i have learned Guitar and Saxophone) but i was wondering if there are somethings that i have missed
for example: every students have to play Bach sinfo and inventions RIGHT?
and every pianist have to play pieces from each pediod Right?
and play beethoven sonatas
scalse
Etc
SO, i am wondering what is the "ETC" what every student has to play not only to have a good basic but because it's something that we all should experience

[rachmaninoff_forever]

on the begining he should learn scales and czerny etudes
2.bla bla bla
3.bla bla bla
4. chopin preludes and bach inventions
5. beethoven rondo or any sonata (no 1-no7)
6. chopin valses, liszt etudes
7.greig and shostakovich preludes
8.bla bla bla
9.concero
10. debuesy preludes
11
12
13
14
15 rach concerto
16 chopin all 4 scherzo
17 tchaikovsky concerto 1

Repertoire alone doesn't make you a professional pianist.  There are professional pianists who have never played any Rach concertos, Chopin scherzo's, or Tchaikovsky concertos.

But in the same breath, there are non-professionals who have played those works.

And pianists don't go through some checklist to become professional.  It's not like, 'okay, oQnce I reach grade 8 by the time I turn 12, I'll then learn X, and then learn concerto X!  Then three months later, I'll enter a competition and win 3rd place!  Then I'll finally win my first competition after I enter my 4th one.  Then I will apply to four universities.  I however will only get accepted into three and choose to enroll in one of those universities.  Then I will learn X and X pieces.  Then after I graduate, I will have my own recording contract and be a professional pianist!'.

It just doesn't work that way.  

[49410enrique]

Repertoire alone doesn't make you a professional pianist.  There are professional pianists who have never played any Rach concertos, Chopin scherzo's, or Tchaikovsky concertos.

But in the same breath, there are non-professionals who have played those works.

And pianists don't go through some checklist to become professional.  It's not like, 'okay, oQnce I reach grade 8 by the time I turn 12, I'll then learn X, and then learn concerto X!  Then three months later, I'll enter a competition and win 3rd place!  Then I'll finally win my first competition after I enter my 4th one.  Then I will apply to four universities.  I however will only get accepted into three and choose to enroll in one of those universities.  Then I will learn X and X pieces.  Then after I graduate, I will have my own recording contract and be a professional pianist!'.

It just doesn't work that way.  

don't you just have to get paid and use those bucks to pay your bills and live? i thought that's what made someone a pro

[rachmaninoff_forever]

don't you just have to get paid and use those bucks to pay your bills and live? i thought that's what made someone a pro

I wonder what J Menz would have to say about this.

I mean, after all...

He is a professional pianist.

[j_menz]

I wonder what J Menz would have to say about this.

Enrique is correct.

I mean, after all...

He is a professional pianist.

I earn my bucks (only) in other ways.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I earn my bucks in other ways too you know.  I'm a teacher as well.

Oh really?  Is that so?  Well tell me when you're in town so you can host a masterclass!

[j_menz]

Oh really?  Is that so?  Well tell me when you're in town so you can host a masterclass!

Your desperation is showing!

But get your whole WTC ready, just in case.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Your desperation is showing!

But get your whole WTC ready, just in case.

Isn't the student supposed to pick the piece for a masterclass?

[j_menz]

Isn't the student supposed to pick the piece for a masterclass?

Not if I'm giving it.

[quantum]

[...] i was wondering if there are somethings that i have missed
for example: every students have to play Bach sinfo and inventions RIGHT?
and every pianist have to play pieces from each pediod Right?
and play beethoven sonatas
scalse

You don't really have to do any of those things.  Many people do those things because they commonly listed in syllabi and audition requirements.  If you have no plans on taking exams with those requirements, it is not a necessity to learn this stuff.  Choose music that you have a love and passion for, not just because everyone else plays it. 

I would agree with enrique's definition.  A pro is someone who makes a living from activities related to piano. 

You need to focus on your career goals.  Learning all the Rach concertos isn't the best way to bring in money if your goal is to work as a choral accompanist.  If you wanted to specialize in Renaissance Spanish keyboard music it would make sense to spend a lot of your energies there, as opposed to learning the 32 Beethoven Sonatas and somehow hope to be known as a specialist in Renaissance Spanish keyboard music. 

One doesn't need to become a super virtuoso in order to make a living as a pro musician.  You need to find a niche that other people are willing to pay you for. 

[starstruck5]

If you have talent -practise and then practise some more -

[ajspiano]

1. Find a problem that is commonly experienced.
2. Solve it using piano as the method of delivery.
3. Market it to people with money.

[lostinidlewonder]

Play piano for a living.

[pianoplunker]

hello people!
i would like to hear what do you think that the steps that each pianist should go through to became a pro pianist (please don't make a any shortcuts!)
I mean
on the begining he should learn scales and czerny etudes
2.bla bla bla
3.bla bla bla
4. chopin preludes and bach inventions
5. beethoven rondo or any sonata (no 1-no7)
6. chopin valses, liszt etudes
7.greig and shostakovich preludes
8.bla bla bla
9.concero
10. debuesy preludes
11
12
13
14
15 rach concerto
16 chopin all 4 scherzo
17 tchaikovsky concerto 1
I  don't think that this is the order, it was just to make my wish clear
THANK YOU

Being able to sightread and improvise from charts will open up many professional doors .   Of course having a repertoire will help but having all the technical fundamentals completely mastered is what you really need. Knowing arpeggios and scales is valuable but to get paid you need to be able to improvise and/or read those  on the fly. 

[j_menz]

1. Find a problem that is commonly experienced.
2. Solve it using piano as the method of delivery.
3. Market it to people with money.

World's classiest Pizza service, perhaps? 

Idea is copyrighted and if actually used to earn money I get 10% of every penny.

[ajspiano]

Idea is copyrighted and if actually used to earn money I get 10% of every penny.

hmmm..

• $200 for piano removalist (per delivery)..
• very regular tuning costs..
• $500/piece for professional pianist (because there's no way 1 pianist will be able to accomodate the frequency of pizza orders..

So shall we say $1000 for delivery in your local area? assuming there's no steps.

...just gotta find the right target demographic now.

Goonnnna be busyyyy. And oh so wealthy

[j_menz]

hmmm..
...just gotta find the right target demographic now.

Toorak.

Oh, and go digital grand. No tuning costs and you can record, thus saving on the need for actual pianists (they can mime). You need to do the originals to save on royalties.

I'll be checking my mailbox regularly for cheques. 

[ajspiano]

Toorak.

Ha. Probably.

Still, I feel I'd have more success in that price range selling a saffron/truffle pizza, without the piano.

[chopin2015]

Are you good at interpreting? Frankly I feel like if you are going to be a pro pianist you should have this talent(I simply cannot in classical music, unless I hear it played). Skill is only one thing... Next, be able to communicate well-any piece you play, regardless of how easy or difficult it may be...make sure you are flexible although having one style of music or composer that is your best in general also helps! Learn...keep learning and memorizing and working until you can easily practice for over 6 hours a day? Get good at practice, performance and studio work...

 Why don't you email someone? Maybe Yulianna Avdeeva?

[j_menz]

a saffron/truffle pizza

I looked for this for lunch. Seriously.  Sadly, no luck. 

[ajspiano]

I looked for this for lunch. Seriously.  Sadly, no luck. 

Thats because you're in Wollongong not Toorak. Unfortunately for me there's probably already someone pushing that particular niche in that spot..  and it won't sell anywhere else..

Except Wollongong apparently 

[j_menz]

To get this thread back on track....

There are two senses in which the term "professional" is being used here, and I'm not sure what the OP is actually asking.

1) First (and strictly correct) sense is a professional pianist in the sense that you make a living (in whole or part) from piano related activities. As opposed to an amateur pianist who does it for non-financial reasons only. Usually a certain level of skill is required to be a professional in this sense, though what that level may be depends on a number of factors. The main question here is "how do I turn a skill into a buck?"

2) The other (technically incorrect but nevertheless commonly used) sense is that of a "good" pianist.  That is, what do I have to do to play to a high standard and what pieces would be usual for me to have in my repertoire or to study along the way?

If OP could clarify, maybe this thread would have better direction.

[danhuyle]

What about the repertoire people used? I can list the ones I used to get my music degree, then there's the stuff I did to pass AMEB. Then other people have something of their own.

Assuming the goal is to reach LMusA meaning you playing virtuoso classical music.

[chewbacha]

1 Practice
2 Practice
3 Practice
4 Practice
5 Practice
6 Practice
7 Practice
8 Practice
9 Practice
10 Practice

I think the order goes somewhere along those lines! 

[werq34ac]

1. Start learning.
2. Get a teacher if you haven't already
3-1423. Practice
1424. Figure out a way to make money with the piano.

[ajspiano]

1 Practice
2 Practice
3 Practice
4 Practice
5 Practice
6 Practice
7 Practice
8 Practice
9 Practice
10 Practice

I think the order goes somewhere along those lines! 

You left out 11 through to ∞ - ||: practice :||

[j_menz]

||: practice :||

But make sure it's good, thought out, purposeful practice, not just an exercise in perfecting your mistakes.

[perprocrastinate]

But make sure it's good, thought out, purposeful practice, not just an exercise in perfecting your mistakes.

In other words, a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step- but make sure it's in the right direction.

[ladychopin]

To get this thread back on track....

There are two senses in which the term "professional" is being used here, and I'm not sure what the OP is actually asking.

1) First (and strictly correct) sense is a professional pianist in the sense that you make a living (in whole or part) from piano related activities. As opposed to an amateur pianist who does it for non-financial reasons only. Usually a certain level of skill is required to be a professional in this sense, though what that level may be depends on a number of factors. The main question here is "how do I turn a skill into a buck?"

2) The other (technically incorrect but nevertheless commonly used) sense is that of a "good" pianist.  That is, what do I have to do to play to a high standard and what pieces would be usual for me to have in my repertoire or to study along the way?

If OP could clarify, maybe this thread would have better direction.

I meant number 2
and I disagree with some of the things that people wrote, I do believe that every *professional pianist* played similar pieces and have pretty much the same basic i don't believe that there is any pro pianist who hadn't play beethoven sonata for example

[lostinidlewonder]

I've met plenty that don't ever play classical.

[ladychopin]

i am talking about becoming a pro classical pianist LOL

[richard black]

I'm a professional pianist. I earn my living playing the piano, both on stage and behind the scenes. I had lessons as a kid from one very good teacher (and a couple of merely OK ones) and a few lessons in adult life from someone very helpful, plus of course lots of advice from other pianists, many old enough to be my grandparent. I never went to music college, have no qualifications in music and didn't study and set programme of pieces - mostly played whatever I fancied, which covered at least some of all the 'major' piano composers. As an accompanist, I work with singers and with players of almost every instrument you can name (certainly all the regular orchestral ones). I learned the repertoire as I went along. Just fell into it, really. Many of my colleagues did the same. Hope this helps.

[werq34ac]

I meant number 2
and I disagree with some of the things that people wrote, I do believe that every *professional pianist* played similar pieces and have pretty much the same basic i don't believe that there is any pro pianist who hadn't play beethoven sonata for example

All of them have played a Beethoven Sonata because that's significantly important repertoire to piano. They didn't necessarily learn a Beethoven Sonata as they were learning the piano. Though they probably did. And besides, Beethoven Sonatas are for everyone who can play the easiest one to the very best of the best. That's why they're regularly performed and recorded.


Other pieces like the Beethoven Sonatas, that are regularly performed and recorded are:
Bach, Preludes and Fugues, Partitas, suites
Mozart Sonatas, Concertos
Beethoven Sonatas, Concertos
Chopin Ballades, Etudes, Nocturnes, Scherzi, Sonatas, other major pieces like the Barcarolle, concertos
Liszt, Concert etudes, paganini etudes, transcendental etudes, Vallee D'Obermann, Sonata, Concertos, Mephisto Waltz 1, Hungarian Rhapsodies,
Brahms, Intermezzos, Ballades, etc. Concerti
Schumann, Papillon, Carnaval, Toccata?, Fantasie?, Fantasiestucke, concerto
Mendelssohn, umm concerto in g minor. Sorry, don't know much Mendelssohn
Grieg Concerto
Scriabin, Etude 8/12, Sonatas
Rachmaninoff Preludes, Etudes-tableaux, Concerti, sonata no. 2
Prokofiev Sonatas, Concerti, Toccata
Debussy, Images, L'Isle Joyeuse, Estampes
Ravel, Jeux D'eau, Miroirs, Gaspard de la Nuit, concerto in G, Tombeau de Couperin

This isn't a list of the best works. This is a list of works that are regularly performed and recorded. There is no order in which to learn them but every "good" pianist has probably tackled many of the pieces from this list.

[ladychopin]

What you just did is naming a famous pieces of some very famous composers. that is not what i'm asking for.
no one can play bach english suites without learning inventions before, RIGHT?
My question is what pieces are necessary for each pianist to take the next level?
Do i have to play nocturnes and preludes by chopin before i move on to mazurkas?
Do you understand now? ... Is there any known basic that each pianist should have?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

no one can play bach english suites without learning inventions before, RIGHT?

That's not true

Do i have to play nocturnes and preludes by chopin before i move on to mazurkas?

No

Is there any known basic that each pianist should have?

No

My question is what pieces are necessary for each pianist to take the next level?

Jut play whatever you like dude.



Like I said before, you can't like make a checklist of steps to come a professional pianist.  And there's no set repertoire that discerns professional pianists from non-professional pianists.  

Consider this:

Person A:  Okay guys, so if you wanna play for this orchestra, you have to have a professional pianists repertoire!

*Reads repertoire*

Person A:  Hmmm, it seems like you haven't played any Chopin preludes or Bach English suites!  

Person B:  So what?

Person A:  Are you kidding me?!  All pianists have to learn at least four Chopin preludes, and three Bach English suites before they become professional!  You don't get the job!

Person B:  Are you freaking kidding me?!



So you see, this is ridiculous.  You should play pieces because you like them, not because you think that they'll bring you one step closer to becoming a professional pianist.  Because it won't.

[werq34ac]

What you just did is naming a famous pieces of some very famous composers. that is not what i'm asking for.
no one can play bach english suites without learning inventions before, RIGHT?
My question is what pieces are necessary for each pianist to take the next level?
Do i have to play nocturnes and preludes by chopin before i move on to mazurkas?
Do you understand now? ... Is there any known basic that each pianist should have?

Actually I've never learned the inventions. And yet I would have no problem learning Bach's English Suites. That may be the general pattern, but there's no set curriculum in piano music.

And that was the point of the list. The idea that there is no "next piece to increase my level" other than whatever you want to play or whatever your teacher gives you that's within your level of playing. Of course you don't go from playing Chopin waltzes to Chopin sonatas unless you are already at the level of the Sonatas, but in terms of graduated improvement, there are always several pieces from which to choose from.

[chopin2015]

There is benefit to playing pieces that could possibly set you up to accomplish more complex works by developing the proper basis to correctly interpret the denser of works. Eventually you develop a skill through all of these pieces that helps you grasp the detail that is only visible to the trained eye.

[ladychopin]

There is benefit to playing pieces that could possibly set you up to accomplish more complex works by developing the proper basis to correctly interpret the denser of works. Eventually you develop a skill through all of these pieces that helps you grasp the detail that is only visible to the trained eye.

GREAT!! Is there any way to know what are they?

[werq34ac]

GREAT!! Is there any way to know what are they?

How about TRYING THEM OUT?

You don't seem to understand that there is no set piece to move on to the next piece and so forth. There are pieces that would be beneficial to your learning of certain techniques and musical ideas but no set curriculum.

[ladychopin]

yeah.. I understood that when the first person said it but i wanted to hear other's opinions and it seems that more and more people saw my post so I wanted to hear if somebody has a different opinion

[j_menz]

You could have a look at the grade syllabuses from the various examination boards for starters.

What you really need at any given point, though, depends on where you are. What "holes" are there in your technique that need filling, and what are your strengths and weaknesses. Filling holes and overcoming weaknesses will advance you faster than just continuing with pieces that work your strengths, though you will appear to advance more slowly.  It is one of the functions of a teacher to guide you through this, and one of the advantages of having one.

[chopin2015]

Do a complete set of etudes by any composer.

[lostinidlewonder]

I beleive that there is no set of pieces that determine if you can be a pro pianist classical or not. There are so many paths to take and each one teaches the professional pianist different but the same tools to play or teach the piano with mastery. I never played much Mozart, Scarlatti and Czerny for instance and there is a whole school of pro pianist who grew as seedlings from this repertoire but I can play them if I need to because I know the process of learning and the technique from other repertoire.

One of my respected piano tutors had very small hands and played almost exclusively Bach, her sight reading was incredible for instance reading half a page ahead of herself, exponents of Bach tend to be excellent sight readers, she never/very rarely touched composer which wrote lots of intervals beyond the octave. Then you have some who master the two main études for piano the 24 Chopin and the 12 Liszt, these are often very formidable pianists. Then you have some who delve in all of the Beethoven sonatas, they understand the great contrast of the piano and the humantiy of piano music which Beethoven's writing explored for the first time.

Then I meet successful professional teachers who have like 50 students a week but the majority of their students are under 5th grade and they hardly if ever teach grades past the 8th grade. They specialise in teaching the early develppment of piano, a task often much more difficult than teaching experienced pianists. These teachers hardly have time to develop their playing ability to the highest level because they are constantly sharpening their teaching skills for a niche group. Then you have teachers who specialise in teaching other areas of music, like composition, sight reading, musical therapy, concert management, piano school management etc list goes on.

I feel that we should look outside of the box and it isnt about your repertoire.