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Topic: pieces with 2 against 3  (Read 7864 times)

Offline zillybug

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pieces with 2 against 3
on: October 05, 2012, 02:32:04 PM
I am looking for pieces that have a lot of 2 against 3 in them at the intermediate level. To give you an idea of my level, I have played or am presently working on the following-
Bach inventions no 1 and 8
Chopin Polonaise in g minor
Chopin waltz in a minor
Brahms Waltzes opus 15 for solo and nos 7 and 16 for 4 hands
Illynsky, Berceuse
Kuhlau, Sonatine in C major, all 3 movements.
Mendelssohn, Songs Without Words, Venetian Boat Song and Consolation
The only suggestion that I have received is Debussy, First Arabesque and I think that is too difficult at this point.
Thanks so much for any suggestions.
Judy
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Offline outin

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #1 on: October 05, 2012, 04:56:35 PM
Can't help you Judy, sorry, but I also would be happy to hear suggestions on something relatively easy to introduce me to polyrhythms...

Offline quantum

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #2 on: October 05, 2012, 06:11:38 PM
Chopin - Etude in A-flat from Nouvelle Etudes.  It's number may differ depending on the edition. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline outin

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #3 on: October 05, 2012, 06:51:12 PM
Chopin - Etude in A-flat from Nouvelle Etudes.  It's number may differ depending on the edition. 

I considered that but I'm afraid my right hand octave problems and my struggles with chords in general make it just too hard to handle. It would take me ages to get through the right hand part...The octaves seem to be on black keys so those should be ok, but still the right hand gives me a headache...Or maybe I am just being lazy...  :-\

I have practiced 2-3 and 3-4 and I am ok with them but haven't really tried any in music (except for some isolated measures occasionally). So if there are anything more to suggest I'd be happy to hear...

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #4 on: October 05, 2012, 07:32:18 PM
this one has some very pretty polyrhythms (3 vs 2 etc) in some sections. i don't think it is terribly difficult if you really pace yourself in the early stages i.e. learn it slow, hands separate, etc. even the most difficult (sounding) sections are that bad if you have solid scales, etc. you just need to commit to good fingering early on so you won'thave to change it to something different as you pick up tempo

i've been reading it on and off for a few months and it has soem super pretty moments. main 3 vs 2 part starts in the middle of the piece after  introduction and main melodies are unpacked)

Offline mikeowski

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #5 on: October 05, 2012, 07:35:21 PM
Paul Barton made a tutorial about that:



It is about  opening from Glassworks from Philipp Glass which is nothing but 2 against 3.

Offline outin

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #6 on: October 05, 2012, 08:25:03 PM
I am supposed to play something less than 100 years old?!  :o

Actually thanks both of you, not bad, but then there's the question of finding the sheets. Just spent too much money on score shopping yesterday...

Offline j_menz

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #7 on: October 05, 2012, 10:32:01 PM
Debussy's First Arabesque is excellent for working on this.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #8 on: October 05, 2012, 11:14:59 PM
I am supposed to play something less than 100 years old?!  :o

Actually thanks both of you, not bad, but then there's the question of finding the sheets. Just spent too much money on score shopping yesterday...
the 'grandma' is from my nier piano collections i posted about in the purchases thread. i'd reccommend these people, i do all my importing through them and they have always gone above and beyond for me in the past. anything showing 'out of stock' they can usually restock asap and get it out to you.

but right now they have a copy
you can 'preview' the rest of them on youtube if you just seach it, the audio album has been posted and is complete by several users
https://animeartbookonline.com/nier-gestalt-replicant-piano-collections-sheet-music-book.html

Offline zezhyrule

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #9 on: October 05, 2012, 11:43:47 PM
The Scriabin Prelude I'm working on right now has a lot of 3vs2. And it's older than 100 years too  ;D

Currently learning -

- Bach: P&F in F Minor (WTC 2)
- Chopin: Etude, Op. 25, No. 5
- Beethoven: Sonata, Op. 31, No. 3
- Scriabin: Two Poems, Op. 32
- Debussy: Prelude Bk II No. 3

Offline outin

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #10 on: October 06, 2012, 05:34:52 AM
The Scriabin Prelude I'm working on right now has a lot of 3vs2. And it's older than 100 years too  ;D


Scriabin is of course the main reason why I need to get fluent in polyrhythms :)

But it seems everything by him is graded so high that I have been hesitant to even suggest any to my teacher. That's a nice prelude though...

Offline zillybug

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #11 on: October 06, 2012, 11:51:38 AM
Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
Mikeowski, I did watch the Phillip Glass tutorial and that looks like it may be a possibility. I'm afraid many of the other suggestions are too difficult for me at this point. Outin, I also have trouble with octaves in my right hand. I can reach beyond an octave in my left but can barely reach an octave in my right. I have started to work on exercises for that with my teacher and it is getting a little easier but I prefer to learn 2 against 3 without  octaves. Outin, I recently got a suggestion for a Mendelssohn piece, opus 117 that has quite a bit of 2 against 3 and looks doable. You might want to have a look at it.
Judy

Offline outin

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #12 on: October 06, 2012, 12:34:20 PM
Thanks a lot Judy, I do like Mendelssohn, so I will surely look into that! I was going to suggest one of the songs without words to my teacher so maybe this one. Just listened to it and it will be a challenge (quite fast) but everything is nowdays...

My RH octaves are also getting better thanks to some of the pieces I have now and my teachers help. But there's still a long way to go to be able to play them fluently and relaxed...  I used to be very frustrated and was certain that I will never be able to play them but I am a bit more positive now. With my left hand the octaves never really gave me any trouble.

Offline outin

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #13 on: October 06, 2012, 01:07:19 PM
BTW. About the polyrhythms:
Am I doing something wrong because so far I don't find them difficult at all? With 2vs3 I just count to 6 and with 3vs4 I count to 6 twice. Then drop the RH/LH notes on the appropriate beats. After a while I don't need to count anymore, it sort of comes naturally...

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #14 on: October 06, 2012, 01:43:32 PM
fyi

pay special attention to what he says around 2:00! you need to be able to count both independent of each other, then count one and feel the other, then flip it. each has to feel like it can indpedently do it's own thing!
ps
pdf

what i'm trying to say, is that addressing the ability to feel and independently and concurrently count these and seemlessly flow between different types away from the keyboard is going to be way more beneficial and efficient at addressing the ability to play these at the piano than trying to play pieces that have them and in investing time trying to find works that contain them while filering for 'less advanced' level of difficulty.

Offline outin

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #15 on: October 06, 2012, 02:38:06 PM
^ You kind of got me lost with your explanation, but when I look at that part of the video (didn't watch the whole thing, I'm not much of a listener I rather read things) he was explaining the same thing that I meant, find a way to divide both rhythms into smaller units that can be syncronized, I just think about it in a slightly different way.

I have been practicing them away from the piano too.

What I didn't get is the last part of your post. I previously tried other methods which were more focused on feeling the two hand rhythms separately and always failed miserably. I just don't think my brain can work that way. I need to syncronize the hands first in a mathematical way and then go by the feeling/sound from that. It gets automatic after a while...

Probably because of language differences I'm not much into using word combinations when learning musical rhythms (like in the attached pdf), in our language is simpler to just count in different ways.

I did get your mail, thanks! I'll look into it.

EDIT: I looked at it but I just do not see how I could ever work according to this method...I am one of those people who are simply incapable of thinking/doing/listening/whatever to two things at the same time. I think I will just have to settle to do those simple polyrhythms that occur in classical piano music with a more simple method...Not going to learn to play drums anyway...

Offline j_menz

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #16 on: October 06, 2012, 10:31:47 PM
Counting or wordplay methods will work for 2/3 and 3/4 polyrhythms, but will ultimately fail you. The true secret to doing these is to learn to play each "line" of the rhythm independently, though at the same time.

By all means, start off with counting or wordplay; but concentrate on developing your ability to truly feel each rhythm independently.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline outin

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #17 on: October 07, 2012, 02:24:42 AM
The true secret to doing these is to learn to play each "line" of the rhythm independently, though at the same time.


So do you think we are all capable of that? I am doubtful...

Offline zillybug

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #18 on: October 07, 2012, 02:34:04 AM
Hi Outin,
 I have spent quite a bit of time today looking through all my music. I sometimes take a class in addition to my private lesson where we play for each other. I thought I remembered a beautiful piece that one of the other students played last year that has  polyrhythms. It is called Meditation from the opera Thais by Massenet. It is transcribed for piano and has quite a bit of 2 against 3 in it. It is not really easy but at least it's slow. There are probably different transcriptions for it. I really love this piece so I am going to bring it to my lesson and see what my teacher thinks.
Judy

Offline outin

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #19 on: October 07, 2012, 03:33:29 AM
Counting or wordplay methods will work for 2/3 and 3/4 polyrhythms, but will ultimately fail you.

I wonder how often does one actually encounter more complicated polyrhythms in pre 1900 classical music? Those should serve one quite a long time...?

I think there is a difference in using simple mathematics to understand what is going on in the rhythm than simply counting to someone else's method. That's why I don't understand using wordplay... Before even trying to play (or tap or whatever) I personally need to figure out what is actually going on. I use old fashioned pen and paper method for that. Then I need to hear the end product before even trying to differentiate the two rhythms. In general I am a strongly global learner (as opposed to sequental) so I often need to create my own learning methods instead of using pre-existing ones and I don't benefit much from traditional teaching.

Offline j_menz

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #20 on: October 07, 2012, 10:54:15 PM
So do you think we are all capable of that? I am doubtful...

I see no reason why not. It takes time, and possibly some effort, though.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline ajspiano

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #21 on: October 07, 2012, 11:07:54 PM
I wonder how often does one actually encounter more complicated polyrhythms in pre 1900 classical music? Those should serve one quite a long time...?
Depends how much (and which bits of) chopin you play..



^there are lots of these kinds of things, and they aren't mathematical (unless your going to count to 66 in a second or 2 :P ) - they are very free and require a sense of complete independence between the hands and rhythms rather than a counted co-dependence.

And that sense of independence, while not required to execute a simpler 2 vs 3 type example, is required for a good performance of it.

Offline ajspiano

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #22 on: October 07, 2012, 11:29:46 PM
Also, this -

(for some shameless self promotion)

I wrote this a while ago for some other similar thread..  relatively simple and short etude that focus's on 2 vs 3 without presenting too many other challenges (assuming a certain level of skill, maybe paralell 6ths if there's anything else..)

...while remaining at least a little musical.

Offline zillybug

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #23 on: October 08, 2012, 02:38:24 AM
AJS piano,
Thank you so much for the etude with 2 against 3. It looks perfect for what I am looking for. I will print it out and bring it to my lesson tomorrow.
Judy

Offline ajspiano

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #24 on: October 08, 2012, 02:46:06 AM
AJS piano,
Thank you so much for the etude with 2 against 3. It looks perfect for what I am looking for. I will print it out and bring it to my lesson tomorrow.
No worries, I've been meaning to rewrite some parts for a while so that there is some spots with 3 in the RH and 2 in LH..  maybe you can try that yourself.. 

add something to a RH group of 2 and remove something from a LH group of 3 if you like?

If you do go ahead and learn it - if your teacher does not have a preferred/better option - take care in bars 15-16.

This is the most rhythmically challenging element because its a bit like playing a 3 vs 2 rhythm, within a single line in the one hand. Notice that there are notes accented and with the stems up. Learn those first, with the right fingering, omitting the other RH notes. Once the RH is settled with the LH like that you can reintroduce the semiquaver runs. Those accents are not intended to be heavy/loud..  its about feeling rhythmic pulses not controlling the volume of the notes.

In bar 28, do not try to hold the RH semibreves (B,G) - let the pedal do that.

Best of luck

Offline zillybug

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #25 on: October 08, 2012, 09:05:14 PM
Thanks for the tips.
Judy

Offline asuhayda

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #26 on: October 19, 2012, 06:28:48 PM
Thanks for the tips.
Judy

Hi Judy.  Have you considered taking a look at Chopin's Fantasy Impromptu in C# minor?  It's 3 against 4 (not 2 against 3), but it's easier than it sounds.  I played it when I was probably around your level.  I think with practice, you could do it. 
~ if you want to know what I'm working on.. just ask me!

Offline zillybug

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #27 on: October 20, 2012, 02:01:47 AM
 Thanks for the suggestion but I think Chopin's Fantasy Impromptu is above my level at this point.
The reason I am trying to start working on 2 against 3 and 3 against 4 is because I love Brahms. I have done them in some Czerny pieces and I get them where they belong but I need a lot more ptactice before they sound good. As my teacher says, at this point, they sound forced. My dream is to play Brahms Intermezzo in A.
Judy

Offline markcohen1

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Re: pieces with 2 against 3
Reply #28 on: January 09, 2016, 06:56:28 PM
It may be too easy, but it is also nearly within the 100 year range. Debussy's first Arabesque. Whether you decide if it is a worthwhile performance piece or not it will give you a good introduction to 2 against 3. It's actually the piece I started with in learning this. Good Luck, Mark
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