best grand for $15K

[needapiano]

Here's what I've seen so far (polished ebony):

Boston GP163 5'4" for $15K (brand new)
Kawai RX2 5'10"  for $14K (2002 model)
Yamaha C2 5'8" for $15K (brand new)

All of the above sounded quite comparable. Any recommendations?

I've ruled out Young Chang, and although I've read good reviews about
the Estonia 168 (5'6"), the $18K price quoted by the dealer was above budget.

Also, I'd like to hear if you have any suggestions about buying
used pianos online from out of town dealers?

[donjuan]

Hello needapiano,
Well, you have found some decent pianos for sure.  I myself own a Yamaha C2 and love it to pieces.  I personally hate kawais because of the stiff touch and muffled tone.  I hear good things about Boston, but have never played any.  Personally, I would seriously consider the Yamaha because it has such great retail value and has a sterling reputation for fine workmanship and consistent quality control.  However, I am beginning to regret not buying the 5'3'' Petrof instead because I love the bell-like tone.  You need to assess your values and needs- What kind of music will you be playing?  Are there other people in the house who may play on it such as small children?  All these little decisions will help you choose the best one for you. 

I dont really know what to say- What size room will the piano be going in?  Carpet or Hardfloor?  I warn you, if you put pianos with bright tone such as a Yamaha on a hard surface, you may be annoyed with the amplified brightness of the sound.   

Now, you mentioned how the dealer quoted the price on the Estonia.  I bet you can lower that price through words.  Read parts of Larry Fine's "The Piano Book" and take notes of things to say to dealers.  I saved $2000 on my C2 because I phoned up the dealer in the next city over to tell them the price of a C2 in my area.  They in turn contacted Yamaha Headquarters and got permission to lower their price to get the business from me.  There are also a number of techniques you can use such as walking out of the Estonia dealership, claiming you are going somewhere else to buy because you can get a better deal.  Salespeople are really quite insecure because your business is directly related to their salary.- Use this against them to force the price down.  Be assertive and get what you want! 

As for buying pianos online, all I can say is DONT DO IT.  You want to make sure it is worth it- maybe even get a technician to check it out especially if the piano is used.  If the piano is flown in from Europe (LIke Petrof, for example), you should also check it out thouroughly to make sure there are no cracks due to humidity differences.

I wish you nothing but the best!
donjuan

[needapiano]

The Petrof IV 5'8" was $14.5K (2003 model), the new one is ~16K.
I plan to keep it in our 12x15 living room, carpet floor, 13' high ceiling.

[Joffrey]

I would go for the Kawai. I prefer Kawai sound to Yamaha.

Good luck

Joff

[Axtremus]

Just a hunch -- you might still have room to negotiate for the Estonia 168 if you really like it that much.

[donjuan]

The Petrof IV 5'8" was $14.5K (2003 model), the new one is ~16K.
I plan to keep it in our 12x15 living room, carpet floor, 13' high ceiling.

That sounds really good! Have a really thourough look at the 2003 model and make sure there are no warps or cracks (petrof's common problem).  So far, I think I would consider this one and compare to the Yamaha C2. 
donjuan

[pianopick]

Although you have heard them, it is not just sound that matters... you MUST choose a piano that is comfortable for the player to sit at, to play, and hear.   Please choose wisely... Sometimes The higher the price does not mean the better the quality.  You have to choose for yourself.  Action, tone quality, comfort, and look are all part of the buying of a piano.  You want something that you will be happy with 10, 15, 20, or more years ahead of you.  Shop around, is all I can tell you. GOOD LUCK WITH THE BUYING EXPERIENCE.

[Sydney]

I prefer Kawai sound and touch to Yamaha.
Never played Boston but my piano tuner friend said it is very powerful instrument.

Second hand pianos are, however, all very unique, as you might have known.
If the sound and touch catch you, just go for it irrespective of the makers, otherwise, you will regret later.

In this, maybe you try not to use online shop for pianos...

Good luck on your piano search!

[eventemp]

I found a Yamahe C-3 which was on loan to a local University for two years...bought it for US$16,000 in 1996.  Absolutely loved the piano, and recorded a CD on it before trading it in on a Steinway Model L last year. I got $12,000 allowance in the trade in..the Model L was two years old...and I paid $41,000.  It's in a class all by itself.   But note that my estate will get most of this money back when I die...so I think of it as a "loan" to the Steinway Corp. 
ET

[LJC]

I just happen to have a Yamaha C3 (6'1") for sale. I am the original owner and you can have it for a good deal less than 15K w/ artists bench. excellent condition, and sound. Why better than the smaller yamaha. Email me if interested. LJCNPC@aol.com. I need to make room for my S&S model D.

[Toshiyo]

Needapiano,

Where did you find C2 brand new for $15K? I'd be interested in also.

You can e-mail me toshiyo@gmail.com

Thanks in advance! 

Here's what I've seen so far (polished ebony):

Boston GP163 5'4" for $15K (brand new)
Kawai RX2 5'10"  for $14K (2002 model)
Yamaha C2 5'8" for $15K (brand new)

All of the above sounded quite comparable. Any recommendations?

I've ruled out Young Chang, and although I've read good reviews about
the Estonia 168 (5'6"), the $18K price quoted by the dealer was above budget.

Also, I'd like to hear if you have any suggestions about buying
used pianos online from out of town dealers?

[Moonsong]

Needapiano,
Could you post the pointer to Yamaha C2 here?

[wynnbear]

Yamaha C2:

https://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,6373,CNTID%253D207%2526CTID%253D200500,00.html

[Brian Healey]

I thought I would throw in my two cents here.

Yamahas are good instruments. A C2 for 15k sounds like a pretty good deal. I don't prefer the Yamaha's tone personally, but many people like it very much.

I've had a ton of experience playing Boston pianos. They're from the Steinway family. I've played them a bunch because my university signed a contract with Steinway to become a "Steinway school" and got a whole bunch of new Bostons in a package deal. I personally love the Steinway sound, and the Bostons don't disappoint. A few colleagues of mine refer to them as "ghetto Steinways", but I think they are simply very affordable pianos that still have that great Steinway tone. The only thing to look out for is that some of the Bostons I've seen don't stand the test of time very well. There's a few at school that aren't really old, but have lost quite a bit of their tone. I would say that maitenence is to blame, but our piano guy is pretty darn good.

I've played some Kawai's, but not enough to pass any judgement. I might be tempted to buy the Boston because I love Steinway, but Yamahas are workhorses and 15k is a great price for a C2. Tough decision.........

[Axtremus]

I've had a tone of experience playing Boston pianos. They're from the Steinway family. ...

I've played some Kawai's, but not enough to pass any judgement. ...

Well, if you're tempted to buy a Boston, play a few more Kawai's (the RX-series, RX-2 and larger if you can) before you pull the trigger -- because Boston pianos are made by Kawai. And because of the "Steinway connection," you get to pay more for a Boston than a comparably sized Kawai RX piano.

[Brian Healey]

Hmmmm......wasn't aware of that.

[tshort]

Wow Great question. I find myself in the same situation, however I have not found the pricing you have. If your still there could you let me know where you found these prices? E-mail me please @ tshort@ksbuilding.com

[CJHoward]

  Are we paying cash for these pianos??

Way off topic I know, but I just had to ask.

[alice oliver]

jmho but bostons sound nothing like steinways.  they don't sound like kawais, either, even though they are made by kawai.  of the three pianos listed, i think the kawai rx2 is the best buy for the money, if you like the touch and tone.

if you like the estonia, i would definitely try to talk them down.  and have you looked at the petrof?  that is another good option.  btw, petrof is made to a higher standard now than it was a few years ago and you shouldn't have to worry about cracking at all.  no more than any other european piano.  they are a very good value and if you have the right tech, they can be made into a very fine piano.

[LovePiano]

Here's what I've seen so far (polished ebony):

Boston GP163 5'4" for $15K (brand new)
Kawai RX2 5'10"  for $14K (2002 model)
Yamaha C2 5'8" for $15K (brand new)

All of the above sounded quite comparable. Any recommendations?

I've ruled out Young Chang, and although I've read good reviews about
the Estonia 168 (5'6"), the $18K price quoted by the dealer was above budget.

Also, I'd like to hear if you have any suggestions about buying
used pianos online from out of town dealers?

[LovePiano]

Where is the store to buy the Boston GP163 for $15K.  I like that piano and hope to know where is quote come form.  Our local dealer asks for a higher price.

Thanks.

LovePiano

Here's what I've seen so far (polished ebony):

Boston GP163 5'4" for $15K (brand new)
Kawai RX2 5'10"  for $14K (2002 model)
Yamaha C2 5'8" for $15K (brand new)

All of the above sounded quite comparable. Any recommendations?

I've ruled out Young Chang, and although I've read good reviews about
the Estonia 168 (5'6"), the $18K price quoted by the dealer was above budget.

Also, I'd like to hear if you have any suggestions about buying
used pianos online from out of town dealers?

[LovePiano]

Here's what I've seen so far (polished ebony):


Boston GP163 5'4" for $15K (brand new)
Kawai RX2 5'10"  for $14K (2002 model)
Yamaha C2 5'8" for $15K (brand new)

All of the above sounded quite comparable. Any recommendations?

I've ruled out Young Chang, and although I've read good reviews about
the Estonia 168 (5'6"), the $18K price quoted by the dealer was above budget.

Also, I'd like to hear if you have any suggestions about buying
used pianos online from out of town dealers?

I would like to know what is the store to sell the Boston with $15K.  I'm interested, too.

[LovePiano]

What is the store that sells the Boston GP163 for $15K?  I am interested that piano, too.  But our local dealer asks for a high price.  Please let me know if Boston GP163 is a good choice and what is the reasonable price to buy it?  Recommendations for dealers are appreciated.

lovePiano

[iumonito]

You got good prices.  Good job.  Where are you located?

I would also go for the Kawai, with Yamaha 2d in your list.  I have played the Bostons and I found them cookie-cutter and fear they'll undo over time.

Since you are going the Asian route, you may want to try a Nordiska (made in China by Dongbei).  I have not played them myself, but a friend who I trust tells me they have potential.  I think you can save $5,000 in the size you are discussing and from what I hear may end up actually with a better piano.  I am going to try a few of these (Maestosos, really, which is the brand name for the modified hot-rod version by Maryland's one and only Pianocraft) in a few weeks.  I will keep you posted.

[Impresario]

The best concert quality pianos meet the musical demands of pianists with respect to tone and action and are made with proper materials and workmanship to be durable to withstand such demands.   Important factors are sand casted plates (rather than vacuum processed), white spruce soundboards (rather than Sitka), hard woods in the rim, and hand-notched bridges and stringing.  There are many variables, but the better instruments contain high quality felts and genuine leather, superior woods and solid brass hardware. 

If you wish to spend over $40,000.00 there are about 10 good choices.  The most familiar to Americans, of course is Steinway.  But since they are usually not discounted there are 9 others, although more expensive, with generous discounts can be obtained for the same or even less than

[donjuan]

The best concert quality pianos meet the musical demands of pianists with respect to tone and action and are made with proper materials and workmanship to be durable to withstand such demands.   Important factors are sand casted plates (rather than vacuum processed), white spruce soundboards (rather than Sitka), hard woods in the rim, and hand-notched bridges and stringing.  There are many variables, but the better instruments contain high quality felts and genuine leather, superior woods and solid brass hardware. 

If you wish to spend over $40,000.00 there are about 10 good choices.  The most familiar to Americans, of course is Steinway.  But since they are usually not discounted there are 9 others, although more expensive, with generous discounts can be obtained for the same or even less than

yes, you see, the problem with your post is how the thread topic is called "best grand for 15k".  NOT "best grand for 150k".
 

[Axtremus]

Impresario wrote:

"Important factors are sand casted plates (rather than vacuum processed), white spruce soundboards (rather than Sitka), hard woods in the rim, and hand-notched bridges and stringing.  There are many variables, but the better instruments contain high quality felts and genuine leather, superior woods and solid brass hardware."

Instead of of focusing on material X versus material Y and manufacturing process X versus manufacturing process Y, I'd rather focus on how well the piano actually performs in the end.

White spruce better than Sitka spruce in soundboard? Tell that to NY Steinway who has been making legendary concert instruments with Sitka soundboards. Change that to white spruce and you might just kill the "Steinway sound."

Hardwood definitely better than softwood? Tell that to Bösendorfer that uses spruce (softwood) in their rims. Change that to hardwood and you might just kill off the Bösendorfer charm.

Even within the same type of spruce, wood being wood, no all white spruce is equally well-suited for soundboard application and not all sitka is equally well-suited for soundboard application. Even if the same grade of spruce is used, two manufacturers may season the wood differently and arrive at very different results, or they will crown the soundboard assembly differently and arrive at different results, or they may match the soundboard with different bridge material and arrive at different results... the list goes on. Saying "this spruce is better than that spruce" is oversimplifying.

Different material, different designs, and different processes come together to make a piano that reacts in a certain way when played. Focusing on component-by-component comparison is, in my opinion, neither productive nor effective for the pianist/consumer.

Just sit down at the piano and play -- if it plays well, it is good, all the design elements, material, and processes work well together, great. If it doesn't play well, who cares if it has white spruce soundboard or hardwood rim or sand cast plate or solid brass hardware? The piano sucks anyway.

[G.Fiore]

   I agree with Ax, play as many pianos in you price range as you can. Keep an eye to overall musical quality not specs on paper.
 Ax, you made a little mistake about the Bösendorefer. Their inner rims are made of solid red beech, the outer rim is made of spruce,  as are the other components of the acoustic body. You can't sink plate lag bolts into spruce, this is why the beech is used.

[Impresario]

Note to DonJuan:
   My point was to make one aware that although most pianos that are build properly with high quality materials are expensive (over $35,000.00)  there are a few that are equal in quality but for economic reasons or lack of marketing costs are available for far less and even can be purchased for $15,000.00.   Why settle for a mass produced piano with lesser quality materials when a limited production piano with fine woods and workmanship can be obtained for the same amount?  I have worked with many fine musicians and many are starving artists who have benefitted from such advice.  Nothing like finding a piano for the discriminating artist who has champagne taste and a beer pocket book.
   Good pianos are like fine wines.  The most expensive is not necessarily the best and if you know what you are doing you can pay far less and receive a lot more.  And, of course, there are always good used pianos that are superior to many new cheap ones.  But caution must be used to determine the condition of the instrument which might have been affected by age or use.  It is wise to have a good technician survey the piano.
   It is a given that one who plays well should let the piano speak for itself.  No matter how you say the instrument was built and with which materials, it falls on deaf ears if the pianist does not like it.  But even the best musicians can be fooled by a piano that is properly prepared, feels great and sounds great, but the condition might be temporary.  It might be held to together with bubble gum and rubber bands! 
   Many new pianos sound and feel very good but they will not be durable or stable in the long run.  If you don't pay much for it and you know it's not rebuildable and good enough for ten years, that is fine.  Pianos with soft woods in the rim will not only absorb sound rather than reflect it back to the soundboard, but will actually expand more readily, thus losing the crucial crown of the soundboard and diminishing its performance.  Mason & Hamlin have a demonstration whereas a piece of soundboard is fitted in a partial rim and one can see the crown readily.  They have you insert a business card between the riim and board and lo and behold the crown disappears!   That's all it takes for a piano to change drastically.

[G.Fiore]

 That's M&H sales spin.  Do a search on the PTG archives and you will learn a great deal about piano rims and soundboard crown.

[Axtremus]

G.Fiore, thank you for the correction on Boesendorfer using beech in the inner rim.

Impresario wrote:

"It is a given that one who plays well should let the piano speak for itself."

I'd take that a step further and say that even those who do not play well shoud let the piano speak for itself. Take some one who can play to shop with you if you do not play yourself. That some one would do the playing (ask him/her to play your favorite pieces/songs or your favorite types/genres of pieces/songs), you would do the listening and the judging. It's a simple matter of finding a piano you like to listen to the most that is still within your budget.

Impresario wrote:

"Many new pianos sound and feel very good but they will not be durable or stable in the long run. If you don't pay much for it and you know it's not rebuildable and good enough for ten years, that is fine."

Good point. That's when you go look at the track record of that particular brand/model. Has it been around for a long time and proved that it can remain stable for a long time? Has it been used in a wide range of different environments (homes, schools, entertainment establishments, concert halls, etc.) and showed that it can be reliable/stable/durable under all these different usage scenarios? After you've found the sound and touch you like, ask this sort of questions and find out to what extent has a particular model proven itself over time -- if "long term" (a few decades) is important to you. If "rebuildability" after a few decades is important to you, I guess you can try to find and play a few samples of the "rebuilt" version of the particular brand/model. (Though with top-notch rebuilding costing upwards of $20k, why any one would pay $20k to rebuild something that can be bought for $15k is beyond me. )

[iumonito]

(Though with top-notch rebuilding costing upwards of $20k, why any one would pay $20k to rebuild something that can be bought for $15k is beyond me. )

Here is a thought:  if the rebuilding (really, remanufacture) can make your end result a piano better than the 20K you pay (obviously, also much better than the instrument you paid $15,000) I think it makes a lot of sense, actually.

Prime example is Ron Overs' pianos.  He modifies particular models that have design potential and the end result is much better than the original.  Do you have an old Kawai KG 5 or KG 6 you want to part with?

[Axtremus]

Here is a thought: if the rebuilding (really, remanufacture) can make your end result a piano better than the 20K you pay (obviously, also much better than the instrument you paid $15,000) I think it makes a lot of sense, actually.

Now that would make sense and I agree with you on that -- still, you'll have to play the piano AFTER the remanufacturing is complete to determine if it is really worth the extra bucks.

The Fandrich/Kerman type remanufacturing of pianos does NOT require the customer to first buy a $15k piano and then pay $20k on top to remanufacture it -- the remanufacturer chooses his base piano (perhaps with some input from the customer), do all the work, then let the customer decides whether to buy the remanufactured piano (the total price being, say, "$20k total," instead of "$15k now plus $20k later"). This is very different from Impressario's proposition that a prospective buyer should keep an eye out for rebuilding possibility a few decades hence while shopping for a $15k piano today (this would be the "$15k now for a chance to spend $20k later" model).

I don't have a KG-5 or KG-6 to part with, but in 10~20 years, I might consider getting another piano, and "rebuilding" or "remanufacturing" of my RX-A will also be considered as an option when the time comes, along with all the other pianos that'd be available to me at that time.

[iumonito]

Totally agree.   

[iumonito]

Hi all,

I am glad to report I finally got to play a Maestoso 6'1" today.  Great piano.  I played Great Gate of Kiev and some Mozart, very contrasting, and the piano was entirely responsive.  Lots of color, very good action (tight and nice, neither too light nor too heavy). 

The bass belies the pianos size, it speaks very clearly and has good volume.  The treble projects well too and has a nice bell-like tone both in forte and piano, there is no ugly sound in this piano and things do not get lost up there, as it is so often the case with the grands in this size range.  It very much does not sound like a toy (a description I sadly have had to use for many a Yamaha C3 and C5).

For comparison, without considering price, I would say Maestoso holds it ground well when compared with similarly-sized Steinway and Baldwin L.  It is definitely much better than the similarly sized Boston 178.

Of the pianos I have played, Maestoso is definitely the best under $15K I have come across.  I recommend it without reserve.

[Rockitman]

Very interesting topic.  I myself, was in search of a piano for that very top end amount.   I didn't get a chance to see all of the competition but fell in love with my new Petrof III.   That's 6'4" of piano, and yes, it can be had for that price with some dealers.   It blows away Yammies, Bostons and Kawais.   But that's just my opinion.   
Many good things have been said about Estonia,  but one would be hard pressed to find the 190  (6'3") for anywhere close to this price.  I think the 168 (5'8")  would even be tough for this price.   
Anybody? 

[erecording]

Don Juan,

I read your response that suggested you would walk out on a salesperson and say you're going elsewhere just to get a better price. You make it sound as if we can be easy manipulated.

I am a piano product specialist, and quite frankly I take offense to that. I'm sure you know that dealerships post their opinions on this site as well as consumers. Pitting dealership against dealership, I think personally is downright low. It seems like customer loyalty is going out the window and I think this is the reason you see so many retail salespeople leaving the business. If you want cheapest price then buy a piano from the internet, where you'll get 0 service and support!

The reason I'm on this website is that I like to hear people's opinions on different pianos. I think we should talk about pianos, but leave the salespeople out of this.

Now you have my two cents.

Thank you.

[iumonito]

That's just competition, which is good for consumers.  A good price and a good piano go hand in hand (the cost of the piano = purchase price + money needed to have the piano be a t full potential).  If you don't like it, maybe going out of business would not be such a bad thing.

Consumer loyalty is a direct result of honest, open deals and good pianos.  Pitching dealers against each other is about the only thing we can do, short of simply not buying pianos.  Naturally, once you find the right product for the right price, you need to realize that there is a point where the seller will not sell to you.  But shy of that moment it is simply foolish to let sellers rip you off.

I am glad to talk about pianos, but how can you leave out of that discussion where to get them and how much to pay for them?

Sincerely,
H, a consumer.

[erecording]

Iumoto-

Your point is well taken. There is a point, I suppose, where once you've decided on the right inst. that will leave people wondering what the best deal they can get would be.
However, what I find unbelievable is how some people will use someone for their time and expertise and then travel 2-3 hrs. to another dealership just to see if they can get it for less. It's a slap in the face to the first dealership. The question is where do you draw the line?
If I were the shopper and established a good relationship with the first dealer, it wouldn't matter to me if another could sell it for less.
Actually, I think its' kind of neat that were discussing this so people can see both points of view.

[iumonito]

There is an opportunity cost to get the piano at the first dealership.  If you can get the piano for $1,000 to $7,000 less by travelling not three, but six hours, the buyer just made about $200 to $1,000 per hour for trying a little harder to get the best deal available. 

There should be no such thing as loyalty to the first seller.  If the first seller is being undercut by a cheaper and better product, the problem is that first seller is selling too high and feasting on the ignorant and the lazy.  If the consumer goes to seller 2 and it turns out seller two sells lemons, then buyer has used up 6 hours to make sure seller 1 is a dream come true and the person to deal with.

In fact, I think the best way of doing this would be to have some centralized marketplace, where you could find out about prices in advance, and then go try specific pianos to assess quality and get that love-at-first-sight feeling that piano buyers often get with the instruments they buy.  Most piano buyers are not stupid, price is not what drives a buyer to buy a specific piano.