Advice on addressing sexism

[faulty_damper]

I didn't like the sexism committed by teachers at a school I recently tutored at.
I didn't like seeing students lined up by boys and girls.
I didn't like seeing all the boys punished for acts of only a few.
I didn't like seeing all the girls punished together, either.
I didn't like seeing how only the boys were punished when girls were involved as well.
I didn’t like how the students obeyed these sexist punishments.

I didn't like how the students learned and accepted sexist attitudes.
I didn't like how the girls wouldn't talk to the boys.
I didn’t like how the boys wouldn’t talk to the girls.
I didn’t like how the girls thought they were better than the boys.
I didn’t like how the boys thought they were better than the girls.

There was one time I saw two girls and some boys sitting together during lunch.  I thought this was nice because I thought they didn’t care about what other people thought.  But when I mentioned it to them, one of the boys said that he didn’t know why the girls were sitting there.  That was the last time I ever saw them having lunch together.

But, through all of this, what I didn't like most was me.
I didn't like how I didn't say anything when I saw these things going on.
I felt so powerless to do anything about it.
I wasn’t a teacher.  I just tutored you twice a week.
What could I do?  What could I say?

I don’t want you growing up believing such things.
I definitely don’t want you acting on such beliefs.
If for no other reason than because it’s wrong.

[faulty_damper]

I'd appreciate any feedback on it.  This is something I wanted to share with these students.  This is something that has bothered me for a year now.  And I want to address it.

[Bob]

The usual stuff that's out there.

Randomly draw names for everything.  Popsicle sticks work.

It's just sexism to overcome.  It's all the -ism's.

Cover the names on papers that are turned in.  Or have someone else grade them, but still with names covered.

Stick to just the course material.  That may go away from teaching "life lessons" to students though.  Don't really comment on things outside of class.  No politics, religion, etc.  Try to treat everyone the same.  Never comment on a student's appearance, etc.  Stick to class performance.

Differentiate the curriculum.  Teach mostly to the middle, some to the upper and lower ends.  Your kind of stuck that way if you're teaching a group.

I'm not sure I agree with it, but you can could pick students based on their gender, economics, ethnicity, disability, etc.  Get an even mix of everything.  Or go as far as creating something might not be what the students think -- If they think girls are bad at math, find a few who you focus on more and make them better at math.

I don't which country you're in.  I've seen more racist attitudes outside the U.S.  There's only so much you can do.  If you're not the teacher of the class, you have less control.  In the U.S., at least where I've been, it's still acceptable to punish the whole group.  Except you can't punish them. They just don't earn a reward as a group.  It's still a group effort though.

[faulty_damper]

I'm no longer with them.  I was just a tutor in their class.  But this is what I want to write to them.  They are no longer at the same school as they are now in middle school but I communicate with them through social media.

Also, the actions of these teachers is, I recently found out, illegal.  It's Title IX of the Educational Amendments of 1972 that ended discrimination based on sex, race, religion, national origin.

[outin]

At this point I am afraid it's too late to work on these students' attitudes by simple tricks like making them all wear pink for a day. The only way to make a change would be by making them think and understand how they themselves keep this going with their everyday speech and actions. If they want to, they can analyze their own behavior and attiudes, find ones that are sexists towards both themselves and others and learn new ways to think and act. But they may not want to anymore 

[slane]

FD - I think you made a good point ... you felt powerless ... but actually you were.
As a part time tutor you had very little leverage to influence the culture of an entire school.
But its great that you were so aware of things that some people would not even recognise as sexism!
And in the future, when you have more influence, you can make changes.
Patience! In the meantime you can just gently assert your opinions and hope your voice is heard, hopefully by someone with influence!

Without knowing more about your current situation, I can't offer more advice than that. Sorry.

[faulty_damper]

I no longer tutor at that elementary school.

Story 1
At the beginning of recess on the first day I tutored there, three boys walked by to give me a high-5.  I thought this was really odd since this never happened to me before at any school I was at.  I also noticed that the girls never looked at me, which was also odd since it has never happened to me at any school I was at.

A couple of weeks later (I tutored once a week) half the class laughed at something.  Only boys were sent outside.  I was shocked since I saw both boys and girls laughing.  It was then that I knew why the boys seemed so relieved that I tutored in the class.


Story 2 about the scary teacher
"Boys..."  some of the boys' eyes widened when she said that.  They were scared.  She routinely called out the boys to verbally reprimand them.

One time, the boys' line wasn't straight so she punished them all by keeping them in during recess.  I was shocked... I felt bad...  The boys looked at me like I could do something...  I just wanted to leave.  So after recess, I did and went home.


It was only after I stopped tutoring at that school that I looked into the literature about gender discrimination.  I was hoping that it wouldn't be bad but I was hoping out of ignorance.  It was ALL BAD... lower grades, lower self-esteem, the "glass ceiling", sexist attitudes, increased risk  of being raped (for girls), for boys: increased risk of committing rape...

If you read these things, and understand that this all occurs because of how they are treated and how they learn these sexist attitudes, then for me to feel guilty for not having done something when I was still tutoring there...  This is why I feel guilty now, even though it's been several months since I last saw them.

It's worse because these teachers are still teaching and still behaving the same way.  They don't know what kind of damage they are doing to these young people.

 

[slane]

That sounds quite quite mad! Is it the whole school or just one teacher?

[faulty_damper]

About half of the teachers line the students up by sex and both teachers mentioned punished by sex.  There was only one male teacher at the school, and he was kind of... not dominant.

As evidence of the consequences of such behavior, the girls' science scores were 52% proficient or above compared to the boys' 71%.  This was consistent for three consecutive years.

When I taught the science lessons, none of the girls would answer any questions or volunteer to read or do anything.  I asked the teacher (not one of the sexist ones) about this and she said that this has always been the way it was so if she needs volunteers who aren't male, she draws sticks - a band aid solution.

It took me several weeks but by the end of the semester, I finally got the girls to volunteer and look engaged; I found a hook that made them want to participate.  They actively raised their hands and was enthusiastic about it.  I don't think this went well with the teacher.

[iansinclair]

I regret that I have to say that there isn't all that much that one individual can do to address any kind of -ism.  Any more than I find that there isn't much of a way to address any one of a number of other problems I run into -- self-centredness, selfishness, poor (or no) moral or ethical sense, etc.

The only thing I can suggest or mention is to lead by example.  One must examine one's self very carefully, and become aware of one's own biases and -isms and failings, and then, in every situation and at all times try to do the very best one can.  If we all did that...

[faulty_damper]

It's illegal, what these teachers are doing.  There is an online form that I can address this issue to, but it requires my contact information.  I don't want the school staff to know that I was the one involved in reporting it.

From my experiences, leading by example only works if they know you are doing specific things.  If they see what you are doing, but aren't aware you are doing it, they will attribute it as an individual trait.

I've tried to lead by example to change teachers' behaviors and even though they see what I'm doing differently they don't get it because they don't understand the issue.  Seeing the surface isn't the same as understanding what's underneath.  As a result, none of my attempts to influence behavior were, in the long term, successful.  They all defaulted back to their original behavior.

What has shown to influence behavior in the long term was when I mentioned things verbally and specifically.  It was only then that they seemed to understand and act accordingly; I didn't have to tell them or show them what to do.

[ajspiano]

It's illegal, what these teachers are doing.  There is an online form that I can address this issue to, but it requires my contact information.  I don't want the school staff to know that I was the one involved in reporting it.

Its unfortunate, but my experience in dealing with these issues is that when subtle methods fail..  if you want to stand up for whats right you are going to have to be willing to do it publicly, loudly and suffer consequences from the people you piss off.

..and it has to be done from a position of leverage or power. You either have to be in charge of them, or have the support of someone who is, such as a government body. Or at the least, they need to not have any reasonable authority over you, you must have proven legal rights (and be squeaky clean yourself).

I've done this in relation to a bullying and sexist employer. It was a long, unnecessarily drawn out process..  and while after much fighting and protest and numerous attempts to either fire me or force me to quit I eventually got what I wanted (was legally entitled to)..  however, the rest of the staff remained subject to the same issues, and there was largely nothing that could be done about it because they were unwilling to stand up for themselves.

[faulty_damper]

What I also find troubling is that many of the parents are aware of this.  They stay during morning assembly and can see their children stand in the boys line or the girls line.  They don't see anything wrong with this and, to my knowledge, have never complained.

The principal is also aware but doesn't think anything is wrong with it, either.

If I report this school, and the school does nothing to address this issue, legally, they will lose federal funding.  (Title IX in the education code.)  I doubt this will ever happen nor do I want this to happen.  But the consequences of the sexist behavior will be worse for them when they are older and making life choices where they will be held accountable for their actions.

I figure that my view is from an ethical and moral standpoint.  On this alone, I should have leverage.

[ajspiano]

I suppose your other option is media..  the primary school that I used to attend was recently forced to change some policies because it was shamed in the local newspaper.

That could also be anonymous..

You'd just have to write to a local newspaper detailing the situation..  they'd probably soak it up.

"SCHOOL POLICY FOSTERS SEXISM!! - what will [insert principal name] do about it?"

That might work if you're lucky, it would force some level of community discussion which would lead to parents taking it up with the school. I assume there is a parents committee at the school? If they decide to complain about the situation it would carry a lot more weight than if you do as an individual.

..especially if you can highlight some of those numbers..  higher male participation, lower female grades etc.

[faulty_damper]

I started writing an article, "Are Teachers Promoting Sexism?", which is the tentative title.  I'd have to write at least two different versions of the article, one for a mainstream audience and the other for a scientific audience which would cite numerous studies.

The one for the mainstream audience would be geared toward parents, teachers, and administrators and will include suggested policy changes and related advice for how to reduce sexism in the classroom as well as removing it from their thoughts and behaviors.

The one for the scientific audience will be geared at summarizing recent findings as well as illuminating the behavioral reasons why it still exists and why teachers, professors, administrators, and people in general are oblivious to such overt forms of sexism.


Why is it not okay to say, "niggers, you're staying in for recess," but perfectly fine to say "boys, you're staying in for recess"?

What has happened to feminism and women's rights?  Considering that the sexist behavior was only committed by women, can we conclude that reverse sexism is occurring?

[slane]

Well I think that's not OK to say either of those things ... although you know, "boy" isn't a derogatory word.
It sounds like you slipped through a rip in the time vortex and found yourself in 1970!

Your post on the other thread about gender bias in maths are very worrying to me. I have a 9 year old daughter who insists she is bad at maths and I wonder if her teacher is sending her that message.
I don't think the teacher is very good at maths, although my daughter has two teachers and the one she has for Thu/Fri considers herself a bit of a scientist and has good ideas about teaching maths.
Anyway, my daughter had made a mistake and written 4,500 instead of 45,000 and the Mon-Wed teacher said "You just have to add another 'oh'" and because I'd just read your links I thought ... "wouldn't someone competent in maths say zero?". Is that bad of me?

Now I'm drilling my daughter in numeracy she's catching up ... I think.

Sorry ... not offering much help with your article idea .. I think its a good one, but how widespread are these practices in your country? I can't imagine it happening here but I've seen other things such as privacy practices that would be mandatory when dealing with Uni students are completely unapplied for primary students and parents don't even notice.

[faulty_damper]

Well I think that's not OK to say either of those things ... although you know, "boy" isn't a derogatory word.
It sounds like you slipped through a rip in the time vortex and found yourself in 1970!

According to research, segregating gender through speech (i.e. addressing the class as "boys and girls") has the same effect as punishing by gender.  It has the effect of placing them into categories and the members of the categories learn to act according to those norms.  Ultimately, this leads members of these groups to join fraternities where they will take females back to the "rape room" to rape them.  Females will join sororities, attend frat parties, get intoxicated/drugged, and be raped in these "rape rooms".

Your post on the other thread about gender bias in maths are very worrying to me. I have a 9 year old daughter who insists she is bad at maths and I wonder if her teacher is sending her that message.

Most communication is non-verbal.  Children pick up these cues very young from parents and from teachers.  If the teacher isn't very good at math, she will communicate this to the female students unintentionally from the way she acts.  She is completely unaware that she is doing it.  Males will generally not notice these forms of non-verbal cues and instead, focus on their own abilities so that they are immune to the shortcomings of the teachers.

Anyway, my daughter had made a mistake and written 4,500 instead of 45,000 and the Mon-Wed teacher said "You just have to add another 'oh'" and because I'd just read your links I thought ... "wouldn't someone competent in maths say zero?". Is that bad of me?

No, you are absolutely right.  This was addressed in recent research into math-competent teachers which revealed that they are specific about everything.  They do not say "oh" when they mean "zero".  Competent teachers say "zero" when they mean zero.

Incompetent teachers are very "flexible" in their language and use non mathematical language to describe mathematics.

Sorry ... not offering much help with your article idea .. I think its a good one, but how widespread are these practices in your country? I can't imagine it happening here but I've seen other things such as privacy practices that would be mandatory when dealing with Uni students are completely unapplied for primary students and parents don't even notice.

I'm in the US.  We place 37th in the world in education.

[outin]

What has happened to feminism and women's rights?  Considering that the sexist behavior was only committed by women, can we conclude that reverse sexism is occurring?

Good question!

It has gone out of fashion... Partly because of the increase of general standard of living that allowed also females more freedom and partly because of the increased role of media in forming people's attitudes (as opposed to reading and thinking themselves more). The modern media tends to passivate individual thinking, while the old fashioned way (reading books) required more imaginative formation of ideas. This is my theory at least.  When I try to talk about these issues with people they tend to see it as unnecessary, because they don't see any problems...

[slane]

Well there has recently been a huge kafuffle in our parliament where the PM accused the leader of the opposition of being a misogynist. The PM is a woman. There was all sorts of chest beating about the definition of misogynist, whether Tony Abbott is one, how wide spread this sort of attitude is in Australia etc.
I think a lot of women thought "yeah ... a lot of men get away with treating us pretty crappily" and this is different to equal opportunity which although covered by law and not well understood by workers of either gender. I gave the HR guy at work a heart attack when I demonstrated I knew the EO laws.

But the stuff FD is talking about is ... well its the reverse and I'm sure that sort of thing went on in my school 40 years ago, but now ... I wouldn't sit still for it as a parent!
In fact my last comment about privacy .. I think I need to escalate that.

[slane]

I asked my daughter and at her school ..
the kids have never been divided by gender except once for singing where the boys took the deep part and the girls the high.
she doesn't think girls are better at maths, or that boys are better at maths. Rochelle and Sophie are the best at maths in her class.
She thinks her mon-wed teacher likes maths and she's not sure about the other one.

So phew! She's gonna grow up OK!

[fleetfingers]

I asked my kids, too. At their school, they are almost always lined up by gender. I don't see any problem with it. I agree that boys shouldn't be disciplined as a whole, just because they're boys, but I don't see why they can't be lined up or grouped by gender. Boys and girls are different, by the way. You even acknowledge it in your posts, as you say "boys ignore nonverbal cues" and "women like this kind of loving", etc. We certainly don't want girls to grow up feeling inferior, but how does stripping them of gender identity do any good for their development? Both sexes should be celebrated and taught to respect each other. I don't think the answer is to ignore the fact that roughly 50% of humans are born female and 50% male.

My son's 6th grade teacher has been teaching the boys how to treat the girls, like holding the door open for them and such. I love that my son is learning that; or, I should say, I'm glad that it's being reinforced in school, because I teach it, too.

According to research, segregating gender through speech (i.e. addressing the class as "boys and girls") has the same effect as punishing by gender.  It has the effect of placing them into categories and the members of the categories learn to act according to those norms.  Ultimately, this leads members of these groups to join fraternities where they will take females back to the "rape room" to rape them.  Females will join sororities, attend frat parties, get intoxicated/drugged, and be raped in these "rape rooms".

Is that the "norm" where you live?? So, you grew up, realized you were a man (gasp!) and then raped a female because you were categorized into behaving that way? What a horrible thing to say! If boys and girls where you live are growing up to identify as rapists and victims of rape, then there is a deeper problem going on than "segregating gender through speech". Come on, are you serious? That is the most pathetic excuse for bad behavior that I've ever heard.

[ajspiano]

I asked my kids, too. At their school, they are almost always lined up by gender. I don't see any problem with it.

I'm inclined to agree with this - I don't think gender based separation is necessarily bad. You can do that without it being discriminatory.

The critical factor for me would be in whether it happens always, and whether mixing is at all discouraged (and if it is, for what reason).

[faulty_damper]

So, some of us are born white.  Some of us are born black.  Some of us are born Asian.  Some of us are born Hispanic.  Some of us are born Arab.  Some of us were born Native American...

... and yet, we don't line students up by race.  Would that be considered racist if we did?  Or is it just too difficult because there are more than two different groups?  Where would the mixed race children stand?  In between the different lines?

You don't see a problem with it because you aren't aware of the effects.  If you are from the UK, then you should know the history of discrimination against women and how they were treated as the inferior class.  When the British came to America, they brought these sexist attitudes with them.  The east coast of the US is generally more socially segregated on race, sex, and class, than the west coast because that's where the British and europeans landed.

The effects are subtle, beyond what most people normally identify as sexist.  Thinking that it is acceptable to segregate by sex is part of that subtlety.  And then teaching the boys to treat the girls is such a way reinforces these sexist attitudes.  In psychology, we term that "benevolent sexism."

Here's an article that addresses this issue directly:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111004121314.htm

And here's a quote from it that directly addresses your comment:
"Glick and Fiske have shown the negative consequences of attitudes that idealize women as pure, moral, pedestal-worthy objects of men's adoration, protection, and provision. People who endorse benevolent sexism feel positively toward women, but only when women conform to highly traditional ideals about "how women should be."

Boys being taught to hold doors open for girls is one example of placing women on a pedestal.  Do you see how this is sexist?

[faulty_damper]

Here's the full article so you don't have to click it.

Recent debate about whether acts of "benevolent sexism" harm women are addressed in a new commentary published in Psychology of Women Quarterly (published by SAGE on behalf of the Society for the Psychology of Women, Division 35 of the American Psychological Association).

"The truth about sexism seems stranger than fiction," wrote authors Peter Glick and Susan T. Fiske, about their investigations into the nature of sexism. Sexist attitudes are not exclusively hostile, but include an "odd…conjunction of what at first seemed inherently incompatible: subjective affection as a form of prejudice," which they labeled "benevolent sexism."

Glick and Fiske have shown the negative consequences of attitudes that idealize women as pure, moral, pedestal-worthy objects of men's adoration, protection, and provision. People who endorse benevolent sexism feel positively toward women, but only when women conform to highly traditional ideals about "how women should be."

Benevolent sexism motivates chivalrous acts that many women may welcome, such as a man's offer to lift heavy boxes or install the new computer. While the path to benevolent sexism may be paved with good intentions, it reinforces the assumption that men possess greater competence than women, whom benevolent sexists view as wonderful, but weak and fragile.

The authors developed the Ambivalent Sexism Inventory (ASI), which measures both Hostile Sexism and Benevolent Sexism, nearly 20 years ago. Since its inception, thousands of people in dozens of countries have taken the ASI.

Cross-national comparisons show that hostile and benevolent sexism go hand-in-hand (that is, nations that endorse hostile sexism also endorse benevolent sexism). The beliefs work together because benevolent sexism "rewards" women when they fulfill traditional roles whereas hostile sexism punishes women who do not toe the line, thereby working together to maintain traditional relations. In other words, act sweet and they'll pat you on the head; assert yourself and they'll put you in your place.

Numerous studies by various researchers document benevolent sexism's insidious effects. For example, when led to expect benevolently sexist help in a masculine workplace, women became unsure of themselves, got distracted, and consequently performed poorly.


[Italics mine.]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111004121314.htm

[ajspiano]

I did click it and read..

I agree that it could cause problems - and perhaps does over a lifetime exposure and as a general study across a populace. Its practically impossible for me to discern which beliefs or traits I attribute to a specif gender are a inborn reality or a product of culture and general life experience.

The main issue is of physical size and strength.. I hardly have a scientific paper to prove it, but that has to be the main issue. You can't really suggest that as a general rule women are physically as capable as men. Its just not a reality. Sport should be plenty enough evidence.. Men are physically more powerful, faster, have greater stamina etc.

That's not to say there aren't some women stronger than some men, but as a generalization its not the case.

So, here's the thing..  I'm physically stronger than pretty much all the women in my life.. as such I often help them with physical tasks. That's not sexist, its just practical. You're going to have a really hard time convincing society that's a bad idea.

Also (as a point for discussion) - if as an entire culture we abandon the idea of being polite to women just because they are women then in a great deal more situations women are going to be FORCED to stand up for themselves against dominating men who are in general, physically more powerful and intimidating.

..thats the problem with the employer I dealt with, he is bullying and deliberately dominates everyone physically with body language in that workplace. I was able to stand up against that, as were one or two other men. The women were generally submissive and put up with it, which is terrible..  but its a fear of physical size thing, where I had no fear (perhaps because I'm bigger) they were intimidated and upset by his actions if they ever made a stand against anything.

Maybe that's sexist on my part, categorizing the staff like that..  but in reality while I was there the men got what they wanted firstly because they asked for it, and secondly because when they did they also didn't back off from a fight over it. None of the women did that, they gave up before asking. I'm not suggesting they are weaker (maybe they just didn't care about it as much - though that doesn't seem likely), its just an objective observation of what happened... perhaps such a situation and their behavior is a result of "benevolent sexism" but I suspect there are other factors also. I probably wouldn't have pushed my concerns so strongly if I'd cared at all about losing the position.

When I dealt with my concerns I brought up his behavior toward staff besides myself, and he stopped doing it in my presence because of the legal threat. But I know that it continued when I wasn't there, and he knew that I wouldnt witness it, and no one else would complain.

[outin]

The main issue is of physical size and strength.. I hardly have a scientific paper to prove it, but that has to be the main issue. You can't really suggest that as a general rule women are physically as capable as men. Its just not a reality. Sport should be plenty enough evidence.. Men are physically more powerful, faster, have greater stamina etc.

Men are generally physically stronger yes, but I don't think it means much anymore, at least not in the culture I live in. Most tasks we have today are manageable with the right tools without pure force. I see women in men dominated professions (and the other way round) and the problems they may have are never related to physical strength. I have almost never encountered a situation where I have been forced to give in to an aggressive male because they were stronger. This is because I usually have enough self confidense and authority to make them listen to me (even if I am smaller/weaker). And this is because of the way I was brought up as a kid (and probaly my fearless nature as well). I very seldom need to ask men to help me with physical tasks. What I see women do is pretend to be even weaker than they are because they feel powerful when they can use they gender to make men do things for them. This is how they are brought up. It annoys me a bit I must admit...

[ajspiano]

Men are generally physically stronger yes, but I don't think it means much anymore, at least not in the culture I live in.

I suspect though that for a lot of people, when subjected to a conflict the fight/flight response is largely impacted by physical intimidation even if the cultural climate and/or laws makes it irrelevant. My partner sees this regularly with her dog behavioral consults. People afraid to stand up to a 5 kg dog because it can intimidate them physically - they don't stop to think "that thing is tiny, it can't really hurt me"

I've seen plenty of people who have absolutely no idea how to stand up for themselves and are very willing to just accept whatever happens.

Of course the bigger problems relating to physical strength and dominance are going to occur in private situations not public ones (as in at home, not work place issues). Situations where physical violence is a real possibility - which it unfortunately is for a lot of people even within our supposedly safe society.

I'm not sure that this is at all gender specific though, it occurs for lots of different reasons and to both sexes..  but some of faulty's points certainly could be a factor in it I think - specific behaviors in society grooming women to be generally more submissive, and men to be more dominant... and more importantly, to believe that they are that way because of their gender rather than their behaviour just as a person.

....

Its certainly all possible..  but..  I don't think its really fair to suggest that if I choose to open doors or lift boxes for women (to be polite) that its my fault, and wrong of me for being sexist, if they then choose to alter their behavior in a negative way as a result of that (feel weaker, submissive etc. as a person in general).

I do think that parents and schools should ensure that girls are brought up not to react that way though.

..of course I don't extend such courtesies on a gender specific basis either - no doubt a lot of men do though.

[outin]

I suspect though that for a lot of people, when subjected to a conflict the fight/flight response is largely impacted by physical intimidation even if the cultural climate and/or laws makes it irrelevant. My partner sees this regularly with her dog behavioral consults. People afraid to stand up to a 5 kg dog because it can intimidate them physically - they don't stop to think "that thing is tiny, it can't really hurt me"

My profession is such that I sometimes encounter aggressive people and get threatened. It's understandable, when people are cornered their primal instincts often take over. But it's exactly the same with people and dogs: You must never show fear if you want to resolve the situation

But seriously, when you have learned to stand up for yourself, it makes little difference what gender you are. What I meant with culture was not laws, but a tradition of independent and strong (not necessarily physically) women, most men have learned that using physical intimidation tactics don't usually work.

I've seen plenty of people (irrelevant of gender) who have absolutely no idea how to stand up for themselves and are very willing to just accept whatever happens.

I see them too unfortunately, in both sexes. So my point was, whether men or women the way one is brought up makes a lot of difference. Women should be taught (I think it's best done by example) to stand up for themselves and their ideas while men should be taught to stand up verbally instead of reverting to physical agression.

Of course the bigger problems relating to physical strength and dominance are going to occur in private situations not public ones (as in at home, not work place issues). Situations where physical violence is a real possibility - which it unfortunately is for a lot of people even within our supposedly safe society.

The sad fact is that we can never stop it. But when going on for a longer period it's never one-sided: There's the agressor and the enabler. And both models are usually learned at young age.

[ajspiano]

Well it becomes a case of simply who is the most calm, stable and assertive regardless of gender.. and perhaps who is "right" under the social/moral code (assuming you have a gender equal moral code.. :/ )

I don't quite understand how one is going to fix it though in regard to the "polite" examples cited such as doing favours for women just because they are women. For one, that's in some cases a part of courtship..  aside from that, you can't just stop doing it because then you'll end up discriminating against women. Unless we are saying that you must be either polite to everyone, or impolite to everyone..  and either way I don't see how your going to police that.

...

I still don't see a problem with separating girls from boys in schools in certain situations for any number of reasons..  I wouldn't consider it acceptable as a general practice though.

[faulty_damper]

How did that boss of yours got those ideas in his head that it was appropriate to demean women?

Why is it not socially acceptable for women to be in the military?  Why is there so much sexual harassment and rape against women in the military?

Why are so many primary school teachers women?

Why do women put up with discrimination?

[outin]

I don't quite understand how one is going to fix it though in regard to the "polite" examples cited such as doing favours for women just because they are women. For one, that's in some cases a part of courtship..  aside from that, you can't just stop doing it because then you'll end up discriminating against women. Unless we are saying that you must be either polite to everyone, or impolite to everyone..  and either way I don't see how your going to police that.

I agree here. These things are just cosmetic. The only value would be maybe to make people think about these issues more.

Me and my siblings were brought up believing that being a boy/girl is neither an excuse nor hindrance. I think it has made a huge impact in my life and my career. Of course school children must be treated equal no matter what their gender. But the basics of their attitudes and self worth come from home.

[ajspiano]

That boss's actions were not targeted to women, it was everyone. - just that women put up with it while men didn't.

I couldn't possibly begin to fathom the effects of his (and other family members whom I met) upbringing. Not because they were bad people (on a superficial level atleast they were lovely people) that fostered poor values, rather they were severely discriminated against themselves. The father in law of the boss I personally had concerns with (and who worked with us as swell) was a 90 yr old that was liberated from the death marches during the holocaust. He mistreated people at times as well, but reasoning with him was not worth attempting. He had no concern for any level of authority.. They treated their family like royalty, the rest of the world they appeared to have no concern for.

I'd like to point out also that that's obviously not something I would attribute to any religious/racial group as a generalization. This was that unique group of people, and their unique set of experiences (including those that had nothing to do with religious discrimination) I met and dealt with for a short time, and I felt that while their treatment of others was not justified, it was understandable.

Such effects on people were probably outside the scope of this conversation? Sorry if I've dragged up a whole other issue that may have been best left unmentioned.

[fleetfingers]

So, some of us are born white.  Some of us are born black.  Some of us are born Asian.  Some of us are born Hispanic.  Some of us are born Arab.  Some of us were born Native American...

... and yet, we don't line students up by race.  

I realize that many people want to equate race and gender. It seems like an easy and simple comparison. There can be some similarites, because certain races and genders have been treated as inferior. But, the differences are not always comparative, and the reasons for the segragation are not always the same. There was a time when blacks were not allowed to use the same restrooms, for example. People looked down on them and didn't want their toilets "tainted" by lesser people. It's not the same with separating boys and girls into different bathrooms and locker rooms. I think it's safe to say that most young girls do appreciate the privacy and protection that come from having their own bathrooms.

There was a time before birth control and modern medicine and conveniences when women were tied to their traditional roles by nature. Men didn't "put them in their place" by forcing them to be the childbearers. Nature made that a reality, and women were vulnerable to it. Have you ever carried a child, given birth, or been responsible for nurturing a baby? Breastfeeding? Women did need to be taken care of and protected, and so did their children. There was a percentage of the population wealthy enough to employ wet nurses and caregivers, but most did it on their own. And women really did need a man to provide and protect, if they had children. I think it's a mistake and a falsehood to vilify all men who had "sexist" attitudes in history. Many of them did have genuine, noble reasons.

And here's a quote from it that directly addresses your comment:
"Glick and Fiske have shown the negative consequences of attitudes that idealize women as pure, moral, pedestal-worthy objects of men's adoration, protection, and provision. People who endorse benevolent sexism feel positively toward women, but only when women conform to highly traditional ideals about "how women should be."

Boys being taught to hold doors open for girls is one example of placing women on a pedestal.  Do you see how this is sexist?

Hmm, that makes it sound deeper than it really is. AJ was more on point when he talked about manners and courtship. I like when my husband opens the door for me, because it is thoughtful. It is an outward expression of his inward respect for me. I don't think that it has to mean that I'm on a pedestal or that I have to conform to some ideal he has. And, by definition, it is sexist, because it's understood that HE will open the door for ME, and not the other way around. Does that bother you? Because I rather like it. 

[faulty_damper]

I open doors for my female friends when they get into my car.  I've always done this and would always do this but I would never do this for my sisters or other family members. However, to be taught that all women should have doors open to them is benevolently sexist.

Just like at home, there isn't a separate boys bathroom and a girls bathroom.  I'm for gender-neutral bathrooms.  I believe bathrooms will be cleaner if it were gender-neutral.  What kind of girl will want to talk to a guy who can't aim straight or wash his hands?  But this is beside the point.

[lloyd_cdb]

I believe bathrooms will be cleaner if it were gender-neutral.  What kind of girl will want to talk to a guy who can't aim straight or wash his hands?  But this is beside the point.

It's also relevant to efficiency.  Men can use urinals, women have to use toilets.  Although, having a single larger bathroom would clearly save space.  In your own home though, you have the door closed and are the only one peeing.  I'm sure it's also a comfort level of creepy guys/girls in bathrooms.  Although, based on some politician incidents in airport bathrooms, it's clear that it's not only reserved for gender-neutral bathrooms...

Also, you go into men's bathrooms and have 8 urinals and 2 toilets.  You go into women's bathrooms and have 10 toilets. If you only have toilets, there is bound to be pee on the seat lol. Regardless of aiming straight, men have less control of where they pee when aiming for something 3 feet away as opposed to half a foot.  On a statistical basis, I'm fairly confident it's irrelevant if you can hit the inside of the toilet one time, you are bound to hit the rim with some spray occasionally.

Odd conversation, lol.

[fleetfingers]

If you only have toilets, there is bound to be pee on the seat lol.

Just like at home! 

However, to be taught that all women should have doors open to them is benevolently sexist.

Right. The car door etiquette is reserved for courtship or otherwise special situations. What about everyday ocurrences when two people approach a door at about the same time? If one is a man, and the other a woman, who should reach for the handle first?

And I never argued that it wasn't sexist. As the word "benevolent" suggests, it's a good kind.

I'm for gender-neutral bathrooms. 

We'll just have to disagree on that one! What about locker rooms in middle school and high school? Or even for adults at the gym?? Do you think that boys and girls should be expected to feel comfortable changing in front of each other?

[faulty_damper]

Benevolent sexism is not a good thing. Benevolent is a description of how sexism looks on the outside, not a qualitative description.  It is a bad thing because it is a subtle way of keeping women in their place; i.e. be submissive, passive, subservient, stay home and make me dinner, change the diapers, etc.

What about everyday ocurrences when two people approach a door at about the same time? If one is a man, and the other a woman, who should reach for the handle first?

Whoever is closest first.  I've never thought about this as a gender issue.  If the handle is on the right side, the person on the right usually opens it.  The problem with this is that it opens to the left, so that it sort of forces the person who opened it to go through first. Yeah... it's awkward because this happens to me so often when I expect to open it and go through after, not before.

As for locker rooms, in our country, there is this female breast fetish.  Aside from family members and porn, I'd never seen a woman naked until I was with my first girlfriend.  But I'm also for gender-neutral locker rooms.

As for single sex restrooms and lockers, for some reason, boys don't want other boys to see their penises.  It appears to have gotten worse in the recent decades as some boys will use a toilet if they see someone using a urinal.  I sort of don't understand this but I remember being shy when I was a boy but not that shy.  I'm no longer shy as an adult as a result of learning to be comfortable with my body.  I'm very comfortable with myself and wouldn't feel at all embarrassed if my cloths suddenly disintegrated while walking down a busy street.  I'm sure people will look and take pictures and point and laugh because they saw a penis.  How many penises do people see a day that isn't their own?  If they are female, maybe one or two if they have a husband and a baby son.  Maybe three if she has twins.  Wait, that would be two because married couples don't have sex.  But that's about it.

There is a culture of shame against the nude body.  It's probably a holdover from religious teachings.


For gender-equality and gender-neutral bathrooms and locker rooms...
VOTE Faulty_Damper for Piano Forum President!

[slane]

Bullies and Enablers .. I like those terms. And the Enablers aren't just the ones being bullied. The people around them who do nothing are also enablers.
I was in one situation where I requested my rights under EO law and the HR manager of this company just screamed at me "THAT'S *** BULLSHIT". I very shakily got to my feet and said "I'd better get a lawyer." All at once his attitude changed and he gave me what I wanted. He kept saying how well I'd played the game etc. Game? Its not a game! Its the law! Some men .... I just had a similar incident a few days ago. The bullies get at terrible shock when they encounter someone who doesn't  enable them. But sometimes you just have to walk away. Then again the men in this co. were also being discriminated against but would do nothing about it.

As for mixed toilets ... I've seen some terrible things in women's toilets (including plenty of pee on the seat) and men just shouldn't be exposed to those sorts of sights. Its not fair on them. Not to mention women go more often and take longer.

FD ... this form you mentioned where you have to enter your details .. is there no guarantee of anonymity? And what would be the consequences if the school knew it was you? You don't work there now right? Would it effect your employment chances there and in other schools?

[faulty_damper]

FD ... this form you mentioned where you have to enter your details .. is there no guarantee of anonymity? And what would be the consequences if the school knew it was you? You don't work there now right? Would it effect your employment chances there and in other schools?

There is no guarantee of anonymity.  This is a state form.  I must input my name and contact information and they will contact me.  I do not know if this information will be furbished to the school or district I am accusing of such discrimination.  Even if they don't specifically mention me by name, the teachers and principal will be able to figure out who I am if they mentioned I volunteered there.  There weren't many volunteers and I was very popular and well-liked by the students; I was noticeable.

I only volunteered there for a year.  I currently have no plans working for that district but I don't know about the future.

...
The sad thing about the students who've had the scary sexist teacher was that some of her students had her for two consecutive school years, for both 5th and 6th grade.  These are the students who's behavior is the most gender stereotyped; they act the way girls are "supposed" to act and they expect boys to act a certain way as well.  They don't even know they have sexist attitudes.